Stock oil cooler limits? suitable for heavily modded FD?
01-02-11, 10:27 AM
#1
Stock oil cooler limits? suitable for heavily modded FD?
I have a FD and was entertaining the idea of adding a FC oil cooler instead of the dual oil coolers for 2 reasons. 1 its cheap 2 ive been hearing how holy grail all your oil coolers are...
now my question is how much can it handle? for those making 400+ are you guys still leaving the stock oil cooler? adding another OEM or going aftermarket duals?
i know fitment is going to be a concern but im planning on fabricating my own VMIC set up and sandwiching the oil cooler in between the IC/RAD can anyone provide me with the dimensions?
Any other input? i think this would be a great upgrade from my single oil cooler but im questioning if all this work will be efficient enough for my cooling..
ill be running a hbp motor
bw s366 .91 a/r
koyo rad
greddy fmic (using the core as of right now)
pfc for now (may change)
aem water meth
etc etc etc...
plan on running 10psi wg spring
low boost 14psi
high boost 18-20psi
hoping to hit 500whp
now my question is how much can it handle? for those making 400+ are you guys still leaving the stock oil cooler? adding another OEM or going aftermarket duals?
i know fitment is going to be a concern but im planning on fabricating my own VMIC set up and sandwiching the oil cooler in between the IC/RAD can anyone provide me with the dimensions?
Any other input? i think this would be a great upgrade from my single oil cooler but im questioning if all this work will be efficient enough for my cooling..
ill be running a hbp motor
bw s366 .91 a/r
koyo rad
greddy fmic (using the core as of right now)
pfc for now (may change)
aem water meth
etc etc etc...
plan on running 10psi wg spring
low boost 14psi
high boost 18-20psi
hoping to hit 500whp
01-02-11, 01:17 PM
#5
they can easily handle 500RWHP
how you set it up depends on how well it will be used for track driving or 1/4 mile sprints. no matter how well the oil cooler capacity cools the oil the rest of the cooling sytems need to be ducted accordingly. for example, 1/4 mile runs you don't need optimal airflow because the car isn't being pushed for long to superheat the liquids. in canyon runs, endurance racing and track driving it is necessary to properly place components and duct them to fresh air regardless of what fuel setup you are running because rotaries run excessively high internal combustion temps.
how you set it up depends on how well it will be used for track driving or 1/4 mile sprints. no matter how well the oil cooler capacity cools the oil the rest of the cooling sytems need to be ducted accordingly. for example, 1/4 mile runs you don't need optimal airflow because the car isn't being pushed for long to superheat the liquids. in canyon runs, endurance racing and track driving it is necessary to properly place components and duct them to fresh air regardless of what fuel setup you are running because rotaries run excessively high internal combustion temps.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 01-02-11 at 01:21 PM.
01-02-11, 05:12 PM
#6
im planning to sandwich it in between the IC/rad in a VMIC configuration.. so it will see the most airflow of the 3.
is there a certain angle for maximum results? i felt like i read somewhere, intercoolers for instance, a fmic doesnt cool as well since its vertical and the air is passing right through it vs it being tilted thus air hitting it and cooling it better? is that a myth?
01-03-11, 10:23 AM
#7
Engine, Not Motor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 29,789
Likes: 0
Received 110 Likes
on
93 Posts
Looking at the FC setup, the rad and oil cooler are mounted at a slight angle of about 20 degrees. The oil cooler is in front of the radiator. Mounting these at a slight angle exposes more surface area to the air flowing through.
The FD of course takes this to the extreme and the radiator lays down quite a lot, which is why the ducting is important. The nice thing about the FC cooler is that it is a nice shape to tuck right in front of the FD radiator. I've suggested the same setup to a friend who is building an FD (previously he had the dual FD coolers).
The FD of course takes this to the extreme and the radiator lays down quite a lot, which is why the ducting is important. The nice thing about the FC cooler is that it is a nice shape to tuck right in front of the FD radiator. I've suggested the same setup to a friend who is building an FD (previously he had the dual FD coolers).
Trending Topics
01-03-11, 11:18 AM
#8
I'm not sure what all these folks are doing with their cars, but it completly depends on what you do with yours.
For street, drag, or autocross you would be fine, but as mentioned ducting is half the battle. If you need a ducted flow of unobstructed fresh air to the cooler.
If you planned to do sustained track driving at high RPMs it is not nearly enough even with good ducting. My less than 200HP non-turbo was seeing 240 deg oil temps on 85-90 deg days with one oil cooler. The cooler was freshly refurbished and cleaned and had VERY good ducting. We had to add a second cooler.
For street, drag, or autocross you would be fine, but as mentioned ducting is half the battle. If you need a ducted flow of unobstructed fresh air to the cooler.
If you planned to do sustained track driving at high RPMs it is not nearly enough even with good ducting. My less than 200HP non-turbo was seeing 240 deg oil temps on 85-90 deg days with one oil cooler. The cooler was freshly refurbished and cleaned and had VERY good ducting. We had to add a second cooler.
01-03-11, 12:43 PM
#9
intercoolers don't need fresh air, not as much as people make it seem. there is alternate ways to improve intake air cooling system efficiency(ie auxiliary injection or water injection, whichever you prefer to call it).
in my opinion these cars have been and are being reverse engineered where the focus has been on cooling the intake air temperatures where most of the problems arise from cooling inside the motor. we already know they run hotter than conventional engines, putting the intercooler in front just compounds that issue. take a look at the way the cars evolved, the most powerful stock version to date(the FD3S) moved the intercooler behind the radiator and had the least efficient airflow across the intercooler(as with the FC3S it only received air while moving so both had heatsoak issues). the biggest problem has been fitting an enlarged intercooler without disrupting the airflow to the rest of the main cooling systems.
what i'm saying is, V-mount and ducting is going to be the optimal route unless you only run it in short sprints while letting it cool between each run. this goes for any RX7.
in my opinion these cars have been and are being reverse engineered where the focus has been on cooling the intake air temperatures where most of the problems arise from cooling inside the motor. we already know they run hotter than conventional engines, putting the intercooler in front just compounds that issue. take a look at the way the cars evolved, the most powerful stock version to date(the FD3S) moved the intercooler behind the radiator and had the least efficient airflow across the intercooler(as with the FC3S it only received air while moving so both had heatsoak issues). the biggest problem has been fitting an enlarged intercooler without disrupting the airflow to the rest of the main cooling systems.
what i'm saying is, V-mount and ducting is going to be the optimal route unless you only run it in short sprints while letting it cool between each run. this goes for any RX7.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 01-03-11 at 12:49 PM.
01-03-11, 01:40 PM
#11
If you planned to do sustained track driving at high RPMs it is not nearly enough even with good ducting. My less than 200HP non-turbo was seeing 240 deg oil temps on 85-90 deg days with one oil cooler. The cooler was freshly refurbished and cleaned and had VERY good ducting. We had to add a second cooler.
01-03-11, 02:07 PM
#12
In 65-70 deg with no traffic ours was steady right around 220°F.
But in warmer ambient temps and traffic we were eclipsing 240°F.
When we would get up behind cars we would have to pull the car out into clean air to keep it from nearing 250°F. NOT GOOD.
It's a big, nice, cooler. It's just not designed for road racing.
I will only ever need one stock cooler in my Turbo FC. I only do short 20min track sessions, and rarely am i up behind cars. Otherwise it is all street driving.
But in warmer ambient temps and traffic we were eclipsing 240°F.
When we would get up behind cars we would have to pull the car out into clean air to keep it from nearing 250°F. NOT GOOD.
It's a big, nice, cooler. It's just not designed for road racing.
I will only ever need one stock cooler in my Turbo FC. I only do short 20min track sessions, and rarely am i up behind cars. Otherwise it is all street driving.
01-04-11, 03:30 PM
#13
Engine, Not Motor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 29,789
Likes: 0
Received 110 Likes
on
93 Posts
Weird...I've driven my car in monster stop and go traffic jams with 40C outside temperatures and 99% humidity and have never seen oil temps that high. I think the highest I have ever seen them, while doing "hot laps" at the drag strip was 230 degrees.
01-04-11, 06:27 PM
#14
In 65-70 deg with no traffic ours was steady right around 220°F.
But in warmer ambient temps and traffic we were eclipsing 240°F.
When we would get up behind cars we would have to pull the car out into clean air to keep it from nearing 250°F. NOT GOOD.
It's a big, nice, cooler. It's just not designed for road racing.
I will only ever need one stock cooler in my Turbo FC. I only do short 20min track sessions, and rarely am i up behind cars. Otherwise it is all street driving.
But in warmer ambient temps and traffic we were eclipsing 240°F.
When we would get up behind cars we would have to pull the car out into clean air to keep it from nearing 250°F. NOT GOOD.
It's a big, nice, cooler. It's just not designed for road racing.
I will only ever need one stock cooler in my Turbo FC. I only do short 20min track sessions, and rarely am i up behind cars. Otherwise it is all street driving.
01-05-11, 02:10 AM
#15
I'm not sure what all these folks are doing with their cars, but it completly depends on what you do with yours.
For street, drag, or autocross you would be fine, but as mentioned ducting is half the battle. If you need a ducted flow of unobstructed fresh air to the cooler.
If you planned to do sustained track driving at high RPMs it is not nearly enough even with good ducting. My less than 200HP non-turbo was seeing 240 deg oil temps on 85-90 deg days with one oil cooler. The cooler was freshly refurbished and cleaned and had VERY good ducting. We had to add a second cooler.
For street, drag, or autocross you would be fine, but as mentioned ducting is half the battle. If you need a ducted flow of unobstructed fresh air to the cooler.
If you planned to do sustained track driving at high RPMs it is not nearly enough even with good ducting. My less than 200HP non-turbo was seeing 240 deg oil temps on 85-90 deg days with one oil cooler. The cooler was freshly refurbished and cleaned and had VERY good ducting. We had to add a second cooler.
In 65-70 deg with no traffic ours was steady right around 220°F.
But in warmer ambient temps and traffic we were eclipsing 240°F.
When we would get up behind cars we would have to pull the car out into clean air to keep it from nearing 250°F. NOT GOOD.
It's a big, nice, cooler. It's just not designed for road racing.
I will only ever need one stock cooler in my Turbo FC. I only do short 20min track sessions, and rarely am i up behind cars. Otherwise it is all street driving.
But in warmer ambient temps and traffic we were eclipsing 240°F.
When we would get up behind cars we would have to pull the car out into clean air to keep it from nearing 250°F. NOT GOOD.
It's a big, nice, cooler. It's just not designed for road racing.
I will only ever need one stock cooler in my Turbo FC. I only do short 20min track sessions, and rarely am i up behind cars. Otherwise it is all street driving.
01-05-11, 12:14 PM
#16
tuning can drasatically affect coolant/oil temps so it may have had the timing incorrectly adjusted, such as the wrong timing pulley installed and unknowingly the timing having been off. i've seen plenty of stange inconsistencies with timing on these engines from one car to the next, some cars just run hotter than others for unknown reasons, without a way to properly degree in the engine short of pulling it out and semi apart. i have searched high and low for a way to figure out TDC of the engine but all i really have found is ways to get it in the ballpark(a degree wheel on the e-shaft is really the only way, the front e-shaft keyway is in the 9 oclock position when the engine is at top dead center for the lead rotor). this was mazda's fault for making generic front hubs. fortunately they fixed this with the FD as there is no guesswork or mixing and matching about it and all hubs were pinned exactly the same.
i have noticed the differences when checking timing marks on some FC engines so i know there is an issue with the pulleys and hubs after an engine has been through so many hands over the years.
i have noticed the differences when checking timing marks on some FC engines so i know there is an issue with the pulleys and hubs after an engine has been through so many hands over the years.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 01-05-11 at 12:28 PM.
01-05-11, 01:15 PM
#17
i have searched high and low for a way to figure out TDC of the engine but all i really have found is ways to get it in the ballpark(a degree wheel on the e-shaft is really the only way, the front e-shaft keyway is in the 9 oclock position when the engine is at top dead center for the lead rotor). this was mazda's fault for making generic front hubs. fortunately they fixed this with the FD as there is no guesswork or mixing and matching about it and all hubs were pinned exactly the same.
i have noticed the differences when checking timing marks on some FC engines so i know there is an issue with the pulleys and hubs after an engine has been through so many hands over the years.
i have noticed the differences when checking timing marks on some FC engines so i know there is an issue with the pulleys and hubs after an engine has been through so many hands over the years.
01-05-11, 01:29 PM
#18
just giving alternates to possible issues that FC people may have and not even know it(following their marks assuming their engine ir perfectly timed). most of the time it isn't an issue but there are plenty of engines that are made up of various motors as time goes on, that is where issues arise when you mix and match hubs and pullies from various cars, i always keep customer parts together so they go together the same way they come apart(doesn't mean they are even correct to start with) and i try to keep pullies matched to their hubs on parts i have shelved.
i suppose i just prefer knowing alternates as there won't always be mazda support for the older engines. or figuring out how to know which hub matches what pulley so that the unknowns are then known.
you can have your timing pretty far off and not even realize it(in stock applications), i'm not sure if that is a pro or a con.. when it comes to boosted applications though it becomes a definite con.
i suppose i just prefer knowing alternates as there won't always be mazda support for the older engines. or figuring out how to know which hub matches what pulley so that the unknowns are then known.
you can have your timing pretty far off and not even realize it(in stock applications), i'm not sure if that is a pro or a con.. when it comes to boosted applications though it becomes a definite con.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 01-05-11 at 01:36 PM.
01-05-11, 04:04 PM
#19
It's also not a timing issue, we know how to tune these cars. You of course tune timing as part of maximizing output and this can certainly produce more heat but not appreciably considering the overall heat rejection requirement. Granted the non-turbo cars are run much leaner than a turbo car thus may produce more heat, but i have to believe that is offset by the simple fact that a turbo produces more heat in many other ways obviously being it is making more power and thus more heat.
01-05-11, 04:20 PM
#20
And get this, oil temps are being measured at the oil filter. Which is on the return side from the cooler!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post