BogusFile

Here is a link to a thread with some pics of my car(s). And its another example of a civilized V8 RX7 thread. Look at how far back the motor sits.
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...threadid=36496

Enjoy

gnx7

iTrader: (10)

the last 10 posts are pretty funny. Assembled 383 shortblock that can support 450-500hp and would cost around $1800 (PAW/SpeedoMotive etc), new Vortec GM heads $219 each (flow enough air stock to support 490hp+), performance flat tappet cam and lifters $229, new Victor Jr. aluminum intake manifold $149, new carburetor $400 or so, shorty headers $159. Blammo $3K for a 450hp engine. $400 more spent on heads will fetch aluminum heads and shave 65lbs+ and yield even more power. This shortblock would have forged pistons and could easily handle 150hp or more of NOS. 600hp for under $4K..... carb'd and low tech yes..... fast as hell.... definately.

...... I can't even read this post anymore.... shoot this near dead horse.

Better yet. Check out the L98 350 powered conv't 2nd gen with the weight postings in this forum..... Should smoke about any T2 and most 3rd gens.



-Gnx7

AJC13B

Chris - I think you will find Rice was talking flywheel figures, not rear wheel. Not sure on the torque reading. Those dynos give a reading of tractive effort and I have no idea what the conversion is. If anyone does know it, the reading was around 1800.

rx7_ragtop

Depending on which T56 you go with, of course. Some of them (the ones with the lower 1st and 2nd gear ratios) aren't good for much more than 300lb ft of torque.

And, you can hook a T56 (the ones with a Ford input shaft, since the Mazda clutch parts and pilot bearing fit a Ford input shaft- in fact, the clutch alignment tool for a TII even says FORD right on it!) to a 13B or 20B, but would probably require the bellhousing to be modified... I think using a modded TII bellhousing would be the best bet... just modify the center circle around the input shaft and bolt pattern to match the tranny... and be sure the input shaft length from the tranny face is the same, or space it to make it so.

As for the strength of the stock Mazda transmissions... Ari Yallon runs a stock FD tranny, and puts down 650+ hp AT THE WHEELS. I don't know his torque numbers, but I know he only turns 7K rpm... so with that in mind, he's making at LEAST 487ft/lb of torque, AT THE WHEELS. He's broken ONE transmission that I know of. (And LOTS of axles!) The TII unit is actually supposed to be stronger than the FD, but I don't have any "hard data" to back that up. However, based on that information, YOUR figures are a bit "out there," as Ari's car is closer to (over actually) 700BHP and 500 ft/lb (at the eccentric shaft or "crank," which is the important figure for tranny strength.) Steve Kan (Pluto on this forum) is also running near the same HP numbers... and he drives it on the street.

Brad

rx7_ragtop

I don't care WHO that is directed at, it isn't permitted. NO FLAMES, warning #1.

Brad

rx7_ragtop

A couple questions and a comment...

1) The difference in the Dyno systems commonly used in OZ and the DynoJet commonly used here is well documented and commonly known. His ~500 RWHP (as it would be measured by a DynoJet) approaches the 600HP mark at the "crank," so how do you get that it's a "far cry" from the numbers being discussed. Yes, there is SOME difference, but not much.

2) For the same $$, how do you build a V8 to make those power numbers? (~600 hp at the crank.) You've shown lots of 400-500hp at the crank examples for about the same money, but they are all "a far cry from 600 hp."

And the comment... Your last sentence is: "None of them bash you for choosing rotary." I disagree. I see people bashing the rotary all the time, particularly in these threads... and then the same people take offense when their choice of engine gets bashed in return.

One more comment: SOME rotary parts cost more here... but not all... and we can have them shipped from OZ if there is a huge difference.

Brad

Blue Goose

Quote:

FOR SALE - BUILT SBC 355. Great motor built right with all the good parts. Will not disappoint. It's an awsome motor. I went 10.74 @ 119 in my '67 nova. "010" block, steel crank, fully balanced, polished beams, arp rod bolts, trw 12.5 to 1 CR. Studded bottom end, crank scrapper, windage tray, HV oil pump with milidon pick up. Heads are bowtie fully ported and polished, 2.05 valves, full roller motor, Clay Smith cam, .650 lift, comp full roller rocker, heads have been flowed. I'm looking for sheet for specs. Victor jr intake port matched. Stud girdles, valve cover spacers, Hartman valve cover, Magnum Full Roller Rockers, Deep oil pan, Fluidampnr, complete, Rated 500HP or more. $3,000, 909 785-1066, h8tulooze@hotmail.com 1/8/02

http://www.mortec.com/partsforsale.htm

+100hp shot of nitrous for say, $400?

Took me literally less than 15 minutes to find this, and it is not that difficult to find deals like this. Happy?

I really wish people would quit bickering and have a simple appreciation for the other camp, god forbid, you could actually LEARN something!

The_HITman

Just going back to the gearbox situation. It is common here in Oz to run an old late 80's Supra gearbox in many engine conversions. There are cheap conversion kits for V8's as well as rotaries to run these gearboxes, which stand up to well past 600hp without a problem. I run one myself behind my custom 3-rotor and I (and AJC13B) can guaratee it makes a hell of a lot of horsepower and torque. This gearbox is around the same weight as the Series 4/5 gearbox and is a little smaller physically. For me this made it the only choice with the 3-rotor being mounted far enough back that the rear end-plate is just within the tunnel.

Just something to think about for rotary and V8 owners alike.

BTW, the 2nd gen gearbox is rather tough, it just has crap syncros.

----
Rant mode on....

First up, I believe strongly in EACH TO THEIR OWN. Because of this I went the 3-rotor route with my 1st gen. Not because of cost, but because that was what I wanted to do. People from both the 2-rotor group and the V8 group can say anything about the cost, the power, or the work involved, and it does not effect the way I think. Do you know why...... because I built what I wanted. I wanted a rotary that had more low down torque than a 13B could ever give, yet I still wanted it to rev freely like only a rotary can. I ended up with both in spades, but it did cost extra. ys I could have gone with a V8 (and it was considered) and so too I could have shoved a 2JZGTE into it like I was also contemplating (I can feel the heat already on that one), but the decision I made was for a 3-rotor and to hell with the expenses.

Overall weight added to the car , around 120lbs. Can I feel the weight...yes, but not as bad as you would think.
Do I care about the weight. Nope. What do I care about..... I care about the fastest acceleration this side of an F1 car, with a sound to rival it from inside the cabin. Meanwhile keeping the handling and braking that a lightweight and half sorted 1st Gen offers.
----


The moral to this post.
1. Don't bag out other people's cars because they are not what you would build. Some people like V8 torque, others like cars that make power :-)
2. Don't come to the apple forum and go on about how good your oranges are. Apples like apples and don't care too much about oranges. Otherwise they would turn into orange people, hang out in the orange forums, and own lemons. :-)
I am kidding here folks, who wants to argue when we all love cars.

ChrisV

Brad, some small items: if it's SO cheap and easy to make a 400+ hp daily driver rotary, (or, according to a coupl epeople here a 500+ hp daily driver rotary) why is it that the number of them is only a handful? How many have reached 60-100k that way? Why doesn't everyone on here already drive a 400-500+hp rotary in their daily commute? I know I would have, were it that cheap and easy.

And, when I came here, it was to defend my car, when someone found it on the web years ago. Everybody wants to spend my money for me. Saying I should have spent $7-8-9k to make the same power from a fresh rotary. I didn't HAVE $7-8-9k to spend. I didn't even have the $2k I did spend (bought the engine on payments, and the rest on a credit card with a $1k limit.) No one wanted to step up and earn my money for me, or pay to get my car back on the road. Therefore, no one but ME has a say in the outcome.

Bottom line: I built a car, on my budget, that did what I wanted it to do. I could duplicate it right now, for the same price. I don't want to. But I will help anyone who DOES. That's not bashing on rotary owners. It isn't telling you you SHOULD do this to YOUR car. It's not saying you are stupid for NOT doing it. Unfortunately, some here think it DOES mean that.

NONE of us who built V8 7s have bashed rotary owners for the choice of their cars. ONLY those owners who so chose to bash US first, and even then it isn't for their choice of cars, only about their attitude towards those of us who built something different. This is not a church. We can't be heretics. If someone comes on here asking questions about it, calling them a heretic and saying they should be shot is considerably more rude than them wanting to swap engines in a mass produced automobile.

As for being here at all, as an ex rotary owner and rotary enthusiast, I have every right to be here. When one of us who have installed a V8 in our cars has a question that is specific to the chassis of the car or the electrical system, it is as valid to be here as anyone else. I've been looking at the TII convert projects, as that might be a fun car. Should I not be here to read info on those?

HITman... I've been to your site dozens of times of the years. I've seen some of the absolutely awesome things you guys have done there (I wish the scene had been this good back wnen I had my RX3s...). "Cost be damned" would be a lovely attitude to take, if I could afford it.

Here's the deal:

We know the V8 weighs more than the rotary. The truth is it's not that much more, and with a little thought into it, the finished conversion will not upset the chassis. IF it can handle a fully loaded TII's weight with no problems, it can handle a non-loaded V8 with ease, and without upsetting the handling. You say it's comparing apples and oranges. I say it's what teh chssis has to deal with. If it can handle a 2800lb stock TII, it can handle being a 2800 lb V8 car, when care is taken to remove some weight, and shuffle around the rest (like the battery). No one I know who has done a conversion has NOT taken those factors into account. If you know someone who DID hack it together without thought, please show us.

ANY conversion costs money, whether that be to a V8, V6, or to a modded turbo rotary. How much is up to the individual, their skills, and their ability to get parts. The FACT is I did this conversion for less than it would have cost me to build an equivalent rotary. It may cost YOU less to go the other way. In the real world, budget is important. You might want to leave the car parked for a year while saving the money. Others might not.

It doesn't "ruin" the car. Especially if it was a dead car anyway. A parted out car or one in a scrapyard is more "ruined" then a conversion.

If we wanted Camaros or Mustangs, we would have bought them. I've had them. I love the RX7, and I mean the whole car, not just the engine. Without the engine, it's still a better built car, with a better chassis than any Camaro or Mustang. Those of you who complain the loudest about the conversion are basically saying not that the engine is the heart of the RX7, but that if you remove the engine, the RX7 is a POS that's no better than a Camaro or Mustang. Do you really feel that the rest of your car is a POS? I know I don't!

[edit... so I can't type... I'm sure there are still some typos in there...]

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

I don't understand why the V8 guys keep trying to waste their time defending themselves to rotary bigots. They are what they are. I love the rotary, but I know it's shortcomings. America is made of idividualists. I like hotrods. Do what you want with your RX-7. Put whatever you want in it. It's Kool with me. Remember the average age of the people posting negative responses. Not very old in my book. I'm 57 years young and been through the HOT ROD days and I love it.
Keep up the great work. Looking forward to JIMLAB's HOTROD7.

Ken

'94 white, base, pep, red leather,
mods: Hayes street port & polished stage II, 3mm Hurley Racing seals,
XS T04e single turbo kit, GReddy SMIC(400cu.in.) Aquamist 2s water injection kit, AEM EMS, Pettit ss resonated MP, Pettit ss cat-back,
RP Racing fuel pump, 1600cc injectors, Profec B(10&20psi),
Centerforce clutch, under pulley kit(no air pump),
Pettit short shifter kit, boost gauge,
LaBreck's bushings, Evans Coolant

BhamBill

Can't believe I'm letting myself get sucked in to this but here's a 440HP crate motor from a dealer in Oregon for $4840US http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Ascripts/prices.cgi That compares very favorably with the dyno sheet above for a fraction of the price.

AJC13B

I think you will find, once again, hat that HP is rated at the flywheel. My car is making 500hp at the back wheels! Which is close to 600hp at the flywheel.

That link doesn't work by the way, but here is a link that does nad is closer to my actual HP reading....

http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Chev...imate_502.html

rx7_ragtop

$9850 for that motor. Not bad... but it IS a big-block, which means weight and space issues. That would be GREAT in a Camaro, or anything with a large enough engine compartment... I don't know if it would fit in an RX-7, but it might.

Brad

Blue Goose

It also means a very likely 100k+ miles out of the engine before even a -precautionary- rebuild is needed. Also note that this was suggested by a rotor head, and I don't agree with the big-block suggestion, although it will (most likely) fit. Any comments on my $3k 500hp small block?

ChrisV

I thought your graph said 433 at the wheels. Not 500 at the wheels, or 600 at the flywheel. While there is a difference in measurement between the Dyno Dynamics and a Dynojet, that's a huge margin of error. And while it's a large figure, it's still not clear how much power is actually getting there, with that kind of disparity.

BTW, this isn't to disparage your achievement. Your engine is totally exciting, and I would LOVE to duplicate it! Had it been feasable to do so back in 93-94, on my budget, I would have done it. I'd like to see results of long term durability, too. I didn't make as much hp (not quite 400hp), but my car has been together since '93-94, and that was with a used engine to start with. But I can totally see your engine in a car that started out like my '86 N/A Sport...

The big block is a bad choice for an engine swap in a 7, unless fully aluminum, and even then, the costs are prohibitive. As I said before, a swap should have some economic benefit to the swapper. It will fit, however, as the FC engine compartment is HUGE. There is much more room in an FC than in a late Camaro or any Mustang other than the '71-73. And for the $9800 quoted, a small block can have more power, too. Build it as a 383 cid engine, and a $5000 engine will have nearly 600 lb ft of torque. Bore and stroke that small block to 427 cid, and 750 N/A hp is available (and can be juiced to over 1000hp), but the costs will skyrocket, and the reliability will drop dramatically. ANY highly stressed virtually race engine will not have daily driver durability, especially a budget one.

AJC13B

Chris - My reading was 433rwhp on a dyno dynamics chassis dyno. It is excepted that a dynojet chassis dyno will read aprrox 15-17% more than a dyno dynamics hence the 500rwhp figure.

The big block was not a suggested engine for an RX7, it was just an example of something that has a similar power level as my car.

mbaskett

okay, shame I didn't see this thread any sooner, or I would've had alot to say on both sides.....

Just to put things up front and in the open, I own an 87 GXL... and it's currently undergoing a V8 conversion....I'm not a rotorhead, and while I am impressed by the engineering behind a rotary, I dislike their lack of torque.

As for the weight debate... I can't really comment. I don't doubt that the ford 302 I have in there weighs more than the old 13B I pulled out, but I do know that it's not too far off. ChrisV has pretty much layed this part out in the open, as he's got the background and experience (along with all the cool scales) to measure this.

As for cost....

I mentioned on the V8RX7 board last week what I've got into the car so far, but I"ll let you guys know here. Purchase of the car was virtually free (okay, so it was $1) with a fully functioning 13B N/A and 5spd tranny. The sale of the 13B has been the mjor funding source for my project, and to date has covered all but ~$200 of my conversion so far. The mounts were all custom made (Thanks for the plans Chris) and found local deals on all the parts to build the motor. ALl that's left to purchase is a mazda gear selector (going with the automajik tranny) and have a mustang Driveshaft shortened to fit. Other than that, the car is complete and driveable. The extra $200 I've put into it was due to a splurge when I got sick of all the old nasty painted parts and had them all stripped and pwdercoated/chromed.

There's also a local guy here tha can get me some Garret T03's A/R .63 for $400. That and some added fab work, and I can have a TT302 setup that has put out 500+ RWHP in similar setup Mustangs locally. Although HP is not my goal, it's impressive. What I'm going for with this setup is not the PEAK HP or even PEAK TQ, as that doesn't EVER translate into how fast the car is.... I'm shooting for the total AREA under the TQ curve, and hoping to maximize that. That value is what gets you a quick car. Any motor that can produce 400+ lb-ft of TQ @ 2000 RPM and continue that on through 6000+ RPM is going to be quick... I've yet to personally see that setup from a 13B, but I'm sure it is possible with the right amount of $$$$.

$.02 from a poor guy with fast cars.

peejay

It's the thread that would not die!!!

Okay, that does it. I'm going to do a cross swap. I'll put a 6-port 13B in my roommate's '73 S&S Superior hearse, and then put its 472cid Cadillac engine in the '87. Just so it pisses everybody off.

Just two problems though - the hearse would not move because the 6-port I have is dead, and the RX-7 would not move because it would burn the rubber off the tires every time you touch the throttle

Turbo Timmy

LOL I forgot about this thread... see reply #1

yallgotboost

I have a 350 chevy in my rx7 all it dose is somke the tires

Icemark

and thank you so much for bring back this thread that was dead for a year