lax-rotor

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Warning, this is highly specific information that follows regarding customization and use of a stand-alone ECU (MoTec) on a second gen. It was started as a PM between Titanium TT and Myself. TTT has gone down this route before and there is alot of good information that both him and I feel that the forum may benefit from. Please keep this on topic and keep conjecture out of this thread. If you have different opinions concerning the ECU please be aware that the choice of the ECU is more than just price in my book. The PM's have also been edited to keep 'off the radar' persons off the radar. So, on with it already:

I agree that you should run as much as you can off the ECU. What I would do to choose an ECU is make a list of the things that you want to run and pick the ECU that will allow you to do it. These things would be
Injectors x4
Ignition x4 (I don't like wasted spark - have you seen my ignition setup?)
Wastegate
BAC
Fuel pump
Fan
Tach driver
the proverbial Check Engine Light
6PI activation
OMP???
If you can think of anything else write it down and start looking for ECU's.
Personally I think it would be a great idea to have the 6-ports open when you want them too and be able to tune it to your liking. Good idea


I found a specific dealer by cross-referencing Haltechs Dealers with Motec's Dealers. Nothing more. He is really off the radar. I first called him becuase I wanted to buy this from a local guy and he was the closest. So I called him one day to ask him about the differences between the Haltech and the Motec. He told me that they were both boxes that did what I told them to do. I should pick the box that has enough in-puts and out-puts to do what I want it to do. In our searchings we found that the Motec was the only one. He MAY have changed his approach to this in the last year with the release of the new Motec software. Apparently it is the absolute cats Meow. Service and support is second to none as far as the Motecs go as well. Haltech was a joke when I was looking. I spent 2 hours and $85 on a call to AU to talk to thier head of R&D only to figure out that nope - Haltech can't do what I want the WAY I wanted to. Oh well, I went Motec. His biggest problem is the Haltechs harness. He thinks it's a joke. I agree. I can't remember how he solves it but I do remember him telling me that the Motec and the Haltech share the exact same ECU plug. I think he uses the Motec "harness" when he builds them for Haltech ECU's


He gave me a few very compelling reasons to drop my motor off to him for him to build the harness from scratch. I would consider the same thing. All you would need to provide is a length from a point on the motor to where the harness should end. That's what I would do. However..... what we are doing for my buddy becuase he has a brand new factory TII harness and he's not doing anytthing special is marking on the harness where it passes through the firewall and He is going to add a few of the plugs (not mine becuase the gauge is too big) and then build the harness from the connector to the ECU. That may be something to consider if your harness is basically new. If not I would look into buying a new one from Ray Crowe or having The Guy build one from scratch. Just my $.02.


Nothing is overkill for the Motec Actually the Wide-Band Lambda is almost a requirement now-a-days & the Motec with one pull and a few key strokes can build a fuel curve. You can set the Motec to autotune for say .85 Lambda and it will and will also log it. A few keystrokes later you have a basemap and can tune from there. EGT's are really only used for tuning ignition. Auto-ignition and lean conditions are what kill rotaries. If you want to run this engine on the ragged edge than I would say go for the EGT's as it will let you really dial in the igntion maps. What happens is becuase of the overlap the intake is ingesting exhaust gas, if the exhasut gas is too hot than it will auto-ignite the intake charge and boom. I plan on running conservative igntion maps so I'm not setting anything like that up. I do however have a few auxilliary digital inputs that we are hiding behind the dash so if I DO want to run EGT's I can but more likely they will be used as pressure inputs during the initial tuning of the sequential twin turbos to find the effiecency range of the turbo's


To be honest the only ECU/Harness that would fall into that range is going to be the Haltech E11. If you want to go Motec I would really strongly suggest you go for the MX00 series. The older M4, M48 and even the rotary specific M2R (there is an excellent thread by Stylemon on the ECU section) are all about 10+ years old in design and they do not have the software that the new ones do. Or the ongoing development. The M4, M48 and M2R are limited in thier inputs and outputs and they will not run everything that you want to or really should. For that price you would need to run a Haltech. The M400 starts @ $3200 I believe and that is just a no options box. The Lambda alone is $700 and there are a few other options too that would be good to have. I would honestly budget about twice that if you wanted to go Motec. Haltech had some issues with the E11 when it first came out. Oddly enough it was That Guy who helped them deal with the boost issues it was have and communication with the AIM digital dashes.

Here's a good question though. What are you going to do about an OMP??? That needs 4 outputs and and 2 inputs right there.

Any time you have some questions, just lemme know.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

There really is no benefit to running the S5 OMP over the S4 expect that you can tune the OMP to inject however much you want. I'm going to sit down and try to do some ridiculous math to try to get the OMP to inject based on injector duty cycle Should be fun. The real benefit to running an S5 OMP is the ability to run an S5 TB and the full range TPS. The S4 TPS is garbage and needs, well should be swapped out for a new EMS


I would call Him then and talk to him about it. I'm thinking the best thing to do would be to get a shopping list from him, build the harness to his instructions and just leave the backend of it open where the bulkhead connector goes. Have every wire labled so he can transfer the label to the datasheet when he crimps up the plug.


The Motec will run either type and can even run mix matched sets although it's not rec'd

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Good Choice Don't forget to look at the options page though, Lambda for example is a $700 option


Yes, the 0v, 5v, 8v reference is just that, a reference. The ECU sends a 0 or 5 or 8v through the sensor and whatever voltage it gets back it interprets and translates to temp, or PSI or whatever


The one ouput that you definately do need is for the lambda heater. So if that pressure regulator control valve is needed (I don't think it is) than you need to loose an output (I don't like that) or go to the 600 and have some future options.


No worries about the ramblings or trying to figure stuff out. That's the whole point of the forum isn't it?
OMP - I wouldn't worry about the inputs, you seem to have plenty, it's the outputs and the DC servo operation that you need to drive an electric OMP and the DC Servo is only available on the M820 & M880. So unless you wanted to drop the extra coin to go the M820, I would just go mechanical. Of course though if you did go M820 and run the OMP you would still have some outputs left over for the future.

(FWIW - the Haltech E11v2 can do the electric OMP and I BELIEVE it has the outputs that you need as well.)

EGT - If you use that converter that BDC touts they are voltage. I believe the therma probes that Motec sells are temp (resistance based)

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure if you would need the telemetry. The telemetry allows the Motec to transmit data real-time through a radio to a base station for viewing pleasure. There is no logging with the telemetry, just an output. I'm not sure if you would need that unless you plan on seeing alot of track time and want someone monitoriing or stroing massive amounts of data out of the car. It might be nice for tuning.... but it can't transmit anything back to the ecu.


It is just that, it is an output that drives the tack. If you loose the stock ignition system (which I would suggest) you have no way of knowing what RPM's you are at, you need the driver. If you are keeping the stock ignition, you free up 2 outputs (Tach driver and one leading becuase now you are running wasted spark)


No, the sensor needs to maintain a very specific temp in order to get accurate reading. I was told by a few people that the ONLY way to run lambda is to use an output. It needs to be controled that specifically.


Exactely. All unused fuel and igntion drivers can be converted to Aux outputs. So by going from the 400 to the 800 you gain 4 inj & 4 ign drivers or 8 outputs. Neat huh?

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

So here's a general question posed to the entire FC community:

What does the Pressure Regulator Control Solenoid Valve do?

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Looking up in the FSM it states:
Would an aftermarket FPR be used to remove the need for this solenoid (and the rats nest for that matter) and the stock FPR?

TitaniumTT

Hmmm, sounds like an S5 thing which I am not overly aware of. What exactely is hot condition orange? This valve however something that can easily be controlled via the Motec to attain what mazda was after with the dynamic chamber. It could be controled at the same time as the aux ports or not, depending on you outputs.

You should definately get an aftermarker FPR though and plumb it strait to a manifold boost/vac source so it needs to be after the throttle plates.

TitaniumTT

I forgot to respond to your overboost question. Overboost is what Motec calls anti-lag as far as I can tell from reading thier webpage. Personaly I don't plan on using it nor do I think it's a good idea or needed for small to midsize turbo's. It has some drawback.

To add to the auto-ignition. Also from what I understand and have been told is that it is not only the exhaust gases that are being pulled back into the intake stroke but it can also be the face of the rotor getting so damn hot that it will auto-ignite as well.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

It's for an S4, and I think it's supposed to be Hot Condition and the Solenoid color is Orange.

Alright, I was already planing on redoing my Fuel to SS and AN fittings all the way around so an FPR is a must I'm thinking.

That's what I figured. I figure that wouldn't be too much of a concern for me even if I do a LARGE turbo at some future date, since i'm going to be keeping the 6PI functional. My low end wouldn't suffer while still providing energy to the turbo for spooling.
That would be something to make sure didn't happen. Those EGT's would probably be really nice to have.

With regard to the Solenoid, I think it might be okay to remove it. I don't thinka Hot condition is something the engine should ever encounter... even if it did, what would it do? It'd just make sure that the pressure of the fuel gets bumped up... at least that's what I'm figuring it would do. That could be accounted for in a map with the Engine Temp and pulse width and link it with the regular fuel table, increasing fuel dumped into the engine to maintain or decrease exuberant amounts of heat... That's just a guess though.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

After doing a little more research I think I've found out what the Pressure Regulator Control Solenoid Valve does.
It sounds to me like this can easily be taken over by the MoTec ECU and an aftermarket FPR. Would this be accurate or would I still be losing an output?

just for reference:
I could just make the FPR run at Max pressure and adjust the fuel maps to compensate for that--however I'm not quite sure how that would affect the hot-start... any ideas?

TitaniumTT

Just dump that entire setup all together and set the FPR and let the 1:1 rising rate of it compensate when you build boost. That right there is an extra output that you don't need to worry about.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Alright. So the final Aux. Outputs would be the following:

1. WideBand O2 Heater
2. Fan
3. Fuel Pump
4. Wastegate
5. BAC
6. 6PI (Front & Rear)
7. Tach Driver
8. Warning Light/Danger To Teh Manifold

TitaniumTT

Yes - And just to clarify the Fuel Pump is also the turn on for the ignition system relay as well. This works nicely becuase if the engine every stalls the fuel pump turns off as does the ignition system. I believe there is a short "prime" time that can be written in to build a little pressure and get a little charge on the coils before the key is turned to start.

FC3S.USD

iTrader: (2)

For all in all, Cant you guys use the Haltech E8.

You have 3 aux. analog inputs

and 1 aux digital input.

The omp I think its much easier to go mechanical ( its recommended to go with new aftermarket TPS Anyways ), and Heck why not go with premixing, Like that you leave your engine oil alone , and premix nice fresh easier burning oil ( so you block off the omp injectors and unit ). so you save a few inputs outputs there.

Price is also very tempting at say $ 1600 vs E11 for $ 2100 vs $ 4000 for the motec.

The only down side I would say is the ignition input for the haltech, if you want something dead exact then get a hal effect sensor. ( an extra $ 100-150 ).

and telemetry , I doubt any street car will actually use.


1. WideBand O2 Heater ( E8 check)
2. Fan ( E8 check)
3. Fuel Pump (E8 check)
4. Wastegate (E8 check)
5. BAC ( E8 check)
6. 6PI (Front & Rear) ( Im not 100 % sure how your going to use this, with the haltech boost solenoid ? )
7. Tach Driver ( check )
8. Warning Light/Danger To Teh Manifold

everything there can be taken care with the E8 , ( just not to sure about the danger to manifold output, do you want an overboosting light ?signal ? )

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Short answer, yes. Long answer not exactly. You'd have to see my original post to see what I mean by that.
The OMP is already Mechanical and I don't plan on altering it as there really isn't any benifit for me to do so. Sure I could go 2-Stroke and Pre-Mix, but why? The stock oiling system works for me and is in good condition--Why fix something that's not broken unless there's a marked improvement by doing so?
Although tempting, it's not the deciding factor for me. I'm looking at some rather expensive plugs and there's specific appeal for me to run an M400.
What exactly are Hall Effect Sensors? I see them all over the place, but I don't know what they do.
Yes, I agree. I got confused with the upgrade option as I thought that was for Datalogging, but I was mistaken. No sense in getting telemetry if I'm not going to use it.
I'm doing a specific alteration to the 6PI (see attached thread after the edit) where activation is achieved purly electronically. I've ordered the parts to start the project and hope to have a working proof of concept come mid-summer if not sooner. Here's the link: 6PI Electronic Solenoid Activation

The "Danger To Teh Manifold" is a TIC comment about the Original Fast and the Furious where the main character runs too much NOSS through his system and his laptop warns him "DANGER TO THE MANIFOLD" All it would be in my case would be a warning light saying hey, stop trying to blow up your engine, etc.

TitaniumTT

For a few extra dollars it's really worth it to jump from the E8 to the E11 IFF your constrained to the Haltech for whatever reason. There are alot more options and input/outputs that make it much more appealing for the price. Personally though and LAX hinted to this - there are far more other variables to contend with than just price. Customer support and software are two things that mean alot to both myself and LAX and comparing Haltech to Motec is like comparing a Honda dealership to a Honda F1 Race Team. They simply cannot be justly compared. This may have changed in the last year or two but I got off the phone with Haltech USA laughing my *** off at the complete lack of knowledge that guy had. It was really really sad. Motec on the otherhand is.... well.... Motec. How many professional race teams use Motec vs Haltech?

Premixing is just a personal preference thing and I personally will never do it unless I'm running STUPID amounts of horsepower and on the ragged edge. I personally hate it and will never do it. Period.

I agree the TPS on the S4 should be replaced with a full range TPS. Perhaps just using an S5 TB and then the cruise control bracket to operate the OMP via cable? Pondered it myself but then saif 'eff it and ran the Cosmo.

Motec M400 can be had for <$3000

Using a hal effect sensor for ignition is such a joke. Why not fix the Haltechs problem. I firmly believe the problem lies in the haltech harness. The Off-The-Radar gent mentioned above has repeatedly built harnesses for rotaries NOT using Haltechs harness and he has never had an ignition problem. This was one of my concerns because my coils are mounted where the PS/AC once lived and the ign triggers are run WITH the CAS wires. He laughed and told me not to worry about it. In conversation with him he was telling me about some new sales rep that he was talking to just lamblasting Haltechs harnesses. I've seen a few of them and I don't know how much was Haltech and how much was doth creator but they were an absolute joke to look at.

TitaniumTT

- support, software, development etc etc etc

Without looking into that thread I really think the overly simple way is boost control solenoid wired to the ECU. Completely programable once 3-5PSI of boost is reached

It's a general warning light that can signify anything from overheating to loss of pressure to a bad sensor etc etc et. This is where the Haltech really trully fails. There simply are not enough inputs from the haltech. Inputs to my Motec are as follows
TPS
AIT
MAP
Exhaust mani pressure
2ndard turbo pressure
Coolant temp
Oil Pressure
Oil Temp
Fuel pressure
Lambda
Low sump oil
Low 2-stroke oil
and EGT's if I like
Now the really cool part - with all of those inputs I can have CAN communications with my dash and display whatever I want. I have 6 indiviadual warning lights that I can taylor to my liking. From what you've described - Haltech lacks the inputs to really monitor everything and now we're building one harness for the Haltech and one harness for everything else.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Unfortunatly that won't exactly work with me. The linear actuators are too big, so when I install the turbo they would interfer with mounting. This leaves me only with the option of going another way to achieve linear or rotational motion to the 6PI. One option is a Step motor which would give extremely fine control and could be controlled through a higher version of MoTec ECU's if i'm not mistaken (eg. M800). A rotational solenoid, or a linear solenoid. This will allow more room to be made along the manifold so there will be no interference with the turbo.

Good to know TTT I'll use this list as my reference as I'm planning on figuring out the inputs next. We'll see what I come up with.

FC3S.USD

iTrader: (2)

That seems very fair, and IF you are going to put to use all the spare inputs outputs then , yes e11 is better, and then your close enough to the motec price. That if you wanted to do all that its worth it.

I personally find that us RX7 owners or heck any car modifier owners, jump the gun on parts, always buying what we thing will be best , but never actually putting it to use or enjoying car( llike in garage for most of the time ).

I personally Try to do it the SIMPLEST way possible. ( I personally have no use for all the spare inputs outputs,.).

this is what I would use.


TPS
MAP
coolant
air temp
Fans
Pumps
BAC ( not a must ,but nice to have on a loaded street car ).
Wideband
Datalogging


( then have descent coolant and or air compensation maps with decent throttle pump control and a decent tuning map, anything more than 16x16 is great )

The less the main EMS has to do the better. Ive heard a few tuners say that.

then boost control a nice EBC they can be had for cheap and come with over boost warning and heck even scramble boost or 2 boost settings ).

Tach light , can be had for cheap, but even the most basic EMS can take care of this.


Customer Support , you are right , this is KEY for some. Personally the times Ive tried contacting manufactures for anything I ahve better luck asking fellow enthusiasts.




( oh and regarding the haltech CAS wire, I dont think its due to harness, but to the universality of the pick up ( its designed for so many styles of inputs ). but it does work good enough for 90 % out there without the hall effect. Now if we go with the bling stuff like motec and tec3 they bring there own wheeel ( im not sure if the motec does ).
=----


PLEASE DONT GET ME WRONG, im not saying what ems is better etc. Just saying for most of the people out there you must measure what you want with what you need.

In this case the MOTEC the only asnwer for you guys.


Anyways so like wheres the install thread haha. I want to see it.

Okey i wont polute the thread anymore.

TitaniumTT

You have a perfect opportunity to build a bitchin' one off tubular manifold But sometimes the more involved methods are the better methods. They are certainly the more fun thats for damn sure.

Yes the Motec M820 & M880 have the option of a DC servo control. This can also be used to drive the OMP as it will be in my case.

TitaniumTT

I think the more data and the more centralized it all is the better. Sump oil for example, if it goes low you can have the ECU limit RPM's to prevent you from blowing the motor. Things like that can be built in if need be.

The moost maps for the Motec are supposed to be really really intense. The guru that set me up told me a story about one of his clients racers coming off the last turn of an andurance race in GT1 I believe and got on the throttle a little to much to fast and the tires broke loose and it was just enough to cost them the race. Now what he does is boost vs gear vs TPS and just to add complexity I'm also throwing a trim switch on the dash. What this feature allows you to do is keep the boost lower in the lower gears where you have more of a torque advantage through the tranny. The higher the gear, the higher the boost (Which is another input I forgot to tell you about - wheel speeds - I have ONE wheel speed input and the option of one more. With a rear wheel speed input you can input your tire diameter, rear gear ratio and tranny ratios and the ECU will do some math based on RPMS & Wheel speed and will display what gear you are in and your speed as well In order to do the traction control you need a front wheel speed sensor) the ecu will allow you to build. The you tie in TPS to get a much more linear boost curve if you want it. So if wastegate is 7.5psi and max is 15 you can program to be @ say 12psi when you are at 3/4 throttle and it will hit that. Basically the further you push the pedal, the more boost you will build helping to avoid the getting excited & busting tires loose.

I don't believe the Haltech can do that.

Install thread...... I'll post some pics in here over the course of the next week I guess.

I don't completely buy that as the pick-up is the CAS and mazda doesn't have any ignition problems and niether does the Motec. Haltech does and I don't believe it's the software, I'm convinced it's the hardware.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

I already picked one up. Granted it's not my design, but I'll be modding it for use with an external waste gate so the ECU can control the boost (modified stock turbo has small internal wastegate. I'm just going to weld that shut and go external) and provide more room around the intake manifold.

Hmmmm, perhaps later down the line I'll consider those ECU's for V2 of this project or another project all together. Good info.

TitaniumTT

If you do that just make sure that the harness is built with that plan in mind. Actually I would just go with the M820 to start off with then. The difference in cost is ~ $1300 between the M400 and the M820. Unless of course V2 is a few years down the road. Then it makes sense to go M400 now and redo everything later on.

lax-rotor

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Yeah, V2 is years down the road.

garlic

Thank you for the excellent information provided in this thread. I am currently in the process of evaluating various EMS and it looks like Motec is the way to go. I was looking at the m2r, but it simply doesn't have enough outputs to run the factory idle control and OMP. Factors I hadn't considered until reading this thread.

My car is a daily driver, which gets put onto the track regularly, so I need Motec's ability to get great fuel economy safely (ie lambda targets) as well as the ability to at the flick of a switch change to a safe track setup (with thresholds to stop me destroying the car) with all the trick boost control and traction control features.

The more I read about the motec, the more it fits into what I want to achieve with this car.

I also agree about Motecs service, I have sent a number of unsolicited emails to their support email address, and have always received an excellent response quickly. I will subscribe to this thread, and watch with great interest the outcomes.