lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Ok, for inputs this is what I have:

Reference/Sync Trigger (RPM reference? Where is that signal coming from since the cas is going to be removed?)

Temperature (6 Inputs):
-Water Temp
-AIT
-Oil Temp
-Open
-Open
-Open

Voltage (8 Inputs):
-Wide Band
-MAP
-Oil Pressure
-Oil Low Level Warning
-TPS
-Fuel Pressure
-EGT* (Front)
-EGT* (Rear)

Digital (4 Input):
-Open
-Open
-Open
-Open

* I'm a little confused on where to group the EGT's... They're digital aren't they? Or does it depend on which type you get/run? I think for the EGT's I'm going to go with are the prosport gauges and probes if that lends any aid to my troubles. Now if I go with those I'll probably have to split the wires so that the Gauges get the same voltage signal the ECU does, so that would probably have to come via a repeater circuit board to negate a voltage drop for both the gauge and the ecu right?

Are there any other inputs I could use to maintain engine performance, longevity, or helpful information with regards to data-logging?

TitaniumTT

Why are you removing the CAS? Doesn't that make more work? The CAS will work fine and he's used them on some silly RPM full blown racing P-Ports with no problem so I'm confused why you would want to negate the CAS?

Yes -
A few other things to consider would be that the low sump I believe is digital input as it only latches or unlatches to ground. Low coolant is the same.

The EGTs can be a temp or a voltage input. You are right on the money about needing to manipulate the signal to get an accurate one if you are going to split it. Something to think about might be an AIM digital dash I just need to send the cash off for that damn thing.

Wheel speed is another input that you would need if you are going to use the boost vs gear scenario.

Let me find my data sheets that Mr. Guru gave me and try to post them up. That would be interesting. Then I'm going to bed

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

This is why I gotta ask questions . I'd have to see how you did your ignition, i'm probably not having a firm understanding of how to setup this type of ignition. So where is the reference coming from? The CAS?

Do'h I knew I was forgetting a few
haha, maybe a little further down the line. Don't you have to use a CAN connection though? I don't think the M400 has that.
I'd like to learn more about that. I'll go do some research and see if I can figure it out from their descriptions...
Haha, I look forward to it, and I'll probably be doing the same... I had a rough night last night


Redid the input list:

Temperature (6 Inputs):
-Water Temp
-AIT
-Oil Temp
-Open*
-Open*
-Open

Voltage (8 Inputs):
-Wide Band
-MAP
-Oil Pressure
-Wheel Speed$
-TPS
-Fuel Pressure
-EGT* (Front)
-EGT* (Rear)

Digital (4 Input):
-Oil Low Level Warning
-Water Low Level Warning
-Fuel Low Level Warning (even though stock it seems to be more analouge than not--does that even go to the ECU?)
-Open


*Depending on probe type, whether voltage or resistance based.
$Pending

TitaniumTT

This is the reason for the forum - good correct info

The term "reference" is confusing in this sense. If you dl the Motec manual and read up on ignition and how to wire it you will understand. My ignition system is simple - stock CAS for the signal and the Motec sends it to 4 LS1 coils - BAM.... or BOOM is prob more appropriate :rluagh"



I found the file but its a huge 7 page PDF. Is there a way to break it apart and save one or two pages as jpgs so they can be uploaded? I did see that the sump and the 2-stroke are indeed digitas though.

All those look spot on with the exception of the low fuel. I'm not sure if I would do that or not. I can wire the fuel sender as an input to the AIM dash and program when I want it to go low That's pretty trick right there. You don't NEED CAN but you really should have it otherwise everything is doubleing up. I'm almost positive the M400 has CAN communications.

As for the wheel speed - I got ya covered there too. There is a company called Speedometer Solutions that sells adapters for our transmissions. They originally started off as being used for aftermarket speedometers. I found them through Autometer when I redid my dash and we had a few conversations about how best to wire the thing up. We're using the Motec 8V output to power the thing and then it's just a hall effect sensor. I forget how many pulses per rev it is but we do some math and tell the motecl how many pulses per mile, feet, I can't remember but it automatically calculates speed. Then a little math with RPMS and you've got Gear The I just need to find one of my cop buddies and have him clock me on radar to see how good my math is before I get snagged

MaczPayne

iTrader: (5)

The more I read about Motec, the more I like them. Amazing.

Havoc

just so you know the E8 can do boost per gear selection (dont know if can do via TPS as well through)

Also the E8 can also control the stepper motor for your electric OMP.

I picked up a E8 and a M&W cdi ignition for about US$ 800, heaps cheaper then a motec.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Do you have a link to it by chance? I've been all over their website trying to find it with no luck.
There is. You can use WinCap or if you want to be more complicated you could always press ctrl-prt sc then ctrl-v in a paint program and edit out the non-essential portions of the window.

Yeah, I just looked around on the site. There's no direct reference to it having can on the ECU but if I got the E888 or E816 CAN modules it says it can hook up to the ECU just fine. I'm a little confused on what you mean by doubling up .
So I'd need to use an output for it? Or is it just a constant 8v?

TitaniumTT

To me its like comparing tools to toys and I've heard that from a few different highly regarded people that supports race teams and tuners alike as a living.

No Halteck to my knowledge can do boost vs TPS and the last time I looked into it, the E8 could not run the OMP. Only the E11 had that option.

For that price I'm almost certain you bought those used. That's not a fair comparision at all and should honestly be completely ignored if not deleted all together.

TitaniumTT

It looks like they took it down. Damn, there was ALOT of good information there. I would look in there catalog in the back I believe there are some terms/definitions that may help.

I'm not complicated, I'll give that a shot for sure.

Doubling up was an overly tired term - something to keep the voltage constant if you plan on splitting it. The other option is to use Motecs sensors for your input and then the gauge sensors for the gauge.

We are going to use the Motec's 8v "reference" output to power the sensor and one input to recieve the pulses

It looks like the M400 has the CAN connector
http://www.motec.com.au/drawings/ecu...U%20Wiring.pdf

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

I'll check out their tutorial page and see if I can shoot them off an email to get a pdf of the manual. Worth a shot right?
I see what you're saying. Hmm, something to figure out then. I'm pretty sure I could use the same splitter board (I should probably see if they're available commercially, or if I'll be having to make my own) that I'd use for the EGT voltage.
OHHHHH I see. Sweet. Then I'm able to run it. I'll look at the Wire Diagram again and see if I can figure it out. So you're using the 8V reference voltage that is used in the ignition? Or is the way the FC set up we don't use the 8V reference voltage for the ignition?
Cool! Does that mean I have to use the M888 or M816 to use it? The definition and explination they have for the CAN on the site doesn't give me a good idea of how it's implemented or how it's used/beneficial.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

I've done a little more research on the CAN bus that MoTec has, and it seems (to me anyways) as a way to increase and use more inputs and outputs. From their website they say That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me until I saw this:
E888

Which allows 8 Thermal inputs, 1 0v reference, 2 5v reference, 2 8v reference, as well as 8 Analog Volt Inputs, 6 digital inputs, with 8 outputs.

This of course doesn't solve my problem of being able to pull the proper voltage to both the ECU and gauges, but this may help. If I could set up the E888 outputs to be the sensor voltage outputs for the gauges then there might not be a problem... or is that just going around my elbow to wipe my butt?

The only other way to get both gauges and the ECU working simultaneously would be to double up the sensors. One for the ECU one for the Gauge.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

PS, I found the manuals!

TitaniumTT

& that right there is the reason I'm going AIM digital dash.

I think you're over thinking all of the CAN stuff, I could be wrong as I'm old and therefore required to not be a computer nerd unless I do it for a living. In talking with Mr. Guru though sending the signal to the ECU and the gauge corrupts the signal to both. You either need to double up on the sensors, or get a digital dash that can communicate with the ECU.

Most people I believe are using the stock gauges and the only thing doubled up on is the water temp. I could be wrong but that's what I think they do.

Havoc

Sorry to disappoint but the E8 can operate the OMP (Im looking at it it in the manual right now) is only for rotary engines. Also read Ausrotary.com and there are write ups on how to do it. (I have not installed mine yet so cant help more technically)

And I didnt think it could map for boost vs tps vs gear. But it can do boost vs gear vs rpm

Im not trying to knock the motec, its the ducks nuts !! but for the price (E8 new is $1600 and a motec is $3500) and for most ppl that arnt using their car as a outright race car. I dont see the advantage.

(also not to mention the haltech is now plug and play for the FC's stock wiring loom now)

In saying all that if I had a race car and the money I would use the motec, but Im only planning on 450+ rwhp for a street car. The E8 will do all I need (and the extra left over bought me my 13b-re block

TitaniumTT

It's not disappointing at all to know that the E8 can do the OPM. When I was looking it couldn't. That's some good info right there.

I think boost vs TPS is much better that boost vs RPMs. Just personal preference.

That's just it right there though. The Haltechs cannot always do what we want them to. When I FIRST started looking I found mr. off the radar by asking both co's who they would rec in my area and the first name that matched I called. He said flat out that they are both boxes that do what he tells the box to do. Pick the box that does what you want it to and we'll go from there. The haltech couldn't do what I wanted it to do. He was honestly a little relieved because he didn't have faith in the Haltech being able to deal with 3 inputs and 5 outputs and them all running smoothly together.

Havoc

completely agree, but Titanium you should mention your are running twins and trying to stage them correct ? I think your application is more advanced then most

I would think a E8 will run most of everything else.
Micro's wont run a OMP
MS I dont know sweet FA about
Wolf's v500 Ive been hearing good thing about.

lots of options. but as you said its all about your own situation and what you want

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Alright, so I emailed MoTec about what I wanted to accomplish and they said it's a no go for the obvious reasons stated above. So I've set up the gauges on my bathroom mirror using a white board marker to outline if I really want extra gauges, and I do. Unfortunatly as stated above I can either run a digital dash or run double the sensors. Despite my better judgement I think I'm going to run double the sensors on the ones I have outlined.

This is what I did (never mind the curtain and what not. I used those as contrast so others could see what was going on):

My plan is to use the stock S4 gauges which include the Oil Pressure, Water Temperature, Voltage, and Fuel Level. On the 3 gauge din I'll have both EGT's and Fuel Pressure. On the A Pillar I'll have the Boost and Wide Band. That leaves me with 1 more optional gauge if I would want one--but I can't think of anything that would be neccessary for my application.

I'm doing this because I can't justify doing a digital dash. It just doesn't go with the philosophy of the car and I think would be quite overkill in what I'm attempting. For others it might not be.

I've started looking at the Wiring Diagrams on the FSM and planning out what of the stock goes away, what gets altered, and what gets kept. Basically I'm going to have to go back through and look at what hooks up to the stock ECU and trace it out to find out if I need additional i/o for any stock features I'd want to keep. Any pointers on how to do this would be greatly appreciated. I have the distinct impression that some of the features I want to keep are ditched by people running stand alones to conserve weight, and for other reasons. But I'll pour over it for a little while more and post up when I think I've got something figured out. Maybe I'm making this overly complicated?

TitaniumTT

Yes indeedy - FD Twins sequentially. Once I get them dialed in & I get bored I'll be going BNR which is basically just twin T28's I want to see 425RWHP with those. So for that to be done the way I wanted them to be I needed 5 outputs and 3 inputs. Than 4 more outs and 2 in's for the OMP not to mention a few other things and I managed to use up just about all the outputs on the M820. I think I have 1 left actually. I'll have to double check.

Like I've said though, it's not the box so much as it's what the box can do. Also the V3 software is more advanced than the haltech. That was another main concern

TitaniumTT

I think you can elimate fuel pressure as a guage and just have it as an input to the Motec. Oil pressure and temp I dunno about keeping those as factory gauges. Where the sensors are is good, but I dunno about relying on the factory gauges. The tach is fine as is the speedometer BUT, if you're going to have a wheelspeed input, we've got to figure out where to get that if it's not going to come from the tranny becuase of the mechanical speedo. There's a few options ranging from ABS sensors to the AWR brake shields with a spot for the Motec sensor.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

That sounds fine with me. The only reason I was considering the gauge setup for it was because of a previous problem with my fuel injectors that would have been found out sooner if I had one. No problem running that directly to the ECU and just checking the datalog after the fact. Probably the best way to do it anyways. I like the location of the stock gauges and perhaps there's a way I could use aftermarket gauges in the stock location? I'd like to keep the dash somewhat together, but altering the gauges to be 270* sweep shouldn't be hard to do... it's just the physical size of everything that I'd have to do. Is there a 90* sweep aftermarket gauge I don't know about that could replace the stock gauges?Would the ABS sensors be aftermarket sensors? I don't have ABS stock so maybe the AWR would be the way to go. Another way to do it, which might not be the most very accurate would be to do a Hall effect sensor on the drive shaft. The actual speed is pretty linear after the drive shaft since it only goes through the differential.

I've also talked to an Electrical Engineer friend of mine who says that a simple Op-Amp Circuit might do what I need it to. We looked at both the EGT sensors and the 5-Wire Wide band schmatic and it seems that there wouldn't be any fore-seeable problems with building that type of circuit to mirrior the signal voltage. He warned me that it would have a very small error to it, but nothing major. I may invest in building a test circuit to attempt it and see if it'll work in my application--but that might be a little ways off. (Here's a link to a resource we used: How 5-Wire Sensors Work)

TitaniumTT

Here was my solution to the gauge problem

There are a few ways to go about picking signals. Auto meter makes an 1/8"bsp to 1/8" npt adapter to use for the oil pressure. You could also get an MRC billet pedalstal adapter as I did that has two ports for temp and pressure. Then we run into the water temp. I have no idea how to adapt it to the rear iron but I'd imagine there is an adapter somewhere. Or just drill and tap the WP housing and call it done.
Tach signal if you're using the stock coils is easy enough OR you need the driver from the ECU.
Speed - you need 2 or 3 sensors here depending on what you want to run. The speedometer needs an input, the motec needs an input for speed and 2 if you want to run traction control.

Here's something to REALLY think about though as I did. Price out all of those gauges. I would be willing to bet that it would be just as expensive if not CHEAPER to just go with the AIM dash. Not to mention it'll look alot cleaner. Add it up, I'll bet you'll be surprised. I know I was.

BDC

That dash piece looks fantastic! That's something I wanted to do on my car many years ago but it just never happened. How long did that take to do? I'd still love to do something like that for the white car.

On the water temp gauge -- drill/tap the sensor into the backside of the water pump housing below the thermostat. Works great.

On the oil pressure/temp gauges -- My old Racing Beat oil filter stand block has two spots (I think 1/4"NPT) already machined and tapped for it. I still modified mine but it'll work.
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/ProjectC...eInstallation/

The tacho is simple to do -- There's a tachometer output lead hanging off the back of the trailing igniter/coil pack harness w/ a bullet connector. Plug in and go.

How do you do speedo and fuel level? I have no clue.

B

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Very Nice, I like.
I'll be looking at the pedalstal adapters for sure as that's where the oil feed will be coming from for the turbo. If it's all the same I'll probably end up tapping the thermostate housing for the temperature... I'll have to look again at the write up for installing the turbo but I'll probably have to run the water feed from there... can't remember. BAH!
Driver for sure.
I'll have to look back over the wiring diagram--but I thought the speedo got its reading mechanically, or is this for plugging directly into the MoTec?
All the Gauges come to about $422+shipping and what not (that includes all the gauges minus the tach, speedo, and fuel level on the stock cluster). The cheapest I've seen for AIM digital dashes was for $999+shipping.

TitaniumTT

Thanks! I can crank them out in about 3 hours now that I have all the templates. The first one took significantly longer. Now that I have my TIG I'm going to make a "blank" out of aluminum for the AIM dash.

Speedo is simple and a few options - Speedometer Solutions adapter threaded into the trans wired into the aftermkt electonic speedo, or a hall effect off the driveshaft.

Fuel level there are a few option - standard gauge and replace the sender, or programable gauge.

TitaniumTT

I like the replacement pedastals becuase they can hold more oil than the factory piece so there's less of a mess when changing filters. ReSpeed (MRC) has them.

Instead of drilling and tapping for the turbo coolant lines, just get a TII waterpump housing. Well, that only has the return. I'm thinking of my FD housing has the feed and the return.

The factory speedo is mechanically driven. If you're keeping the factory speedo than you cannot use the speedometer solutions adapter. You need to pull a signal from an ABS/Wheel speed sensor or off the driveshaft.

The stepper motor gauges that I was looking at were about $200 each, the tach and speedo another $270 a piece so I think my total was ~$1300 or some crazy **** like that.

Edit - Yup $1315.