lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

I'm looking for a low current draw solenoid to use in activating the 6PI. I'm thinking power door lock solenoids, but i'm really hesitent because I don't know what they're ratings are for constant duty.

I don't want a solenoid that will pull 14amps constantly, but maybe a few (I'm thinking around 1-3amps)
These look promising, however I do not think they'll stand the constant heat cycles from the exhaust. What do others think?

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Does anyone have any pointers on where I could look for ones that could;
A) Withstand the exhaust temperatures
B) Not draw massive amount of current from the battery during activation

Or if those are unknown, what kind of temperatures would be seen by the 6PI system? I'm thinking somewhere around 3-400 deg F

YaNi

iTrader: (2)

I don't know of any that can withstand high temps, you will need to fab a heat shield .
Electronic Aux and VDI Actuation

Pull Type Solenoids

You want a 1/2" stroke, and continuous duty cycle. The ones on the page above are 11 watts (~1A).

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Yup, I've read that and even talked to the writer about it awhile ago. He's using a non-sealed solenoid which doesn't work in the conditions for the 6PI unless you use bicycle cable (which I'm refraining from using).
I can't load up that link for one reason or another. I have found a sealed continous duty solenoid that can withstand temperatures of 266 deg F, and with the use of a heat shield would be able *I think* to withstand the temperatures.
yeah, I just double checked. It's got a stroke of 1". I may even be able to go with a .5" stroke which would be significantly cheaper--But i'm not sure if the force would be enough... it would only supply 10oz of force compared to 70oz at 1/8" I don't think that'll be enough force...

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

I know I've asked this question before in another thread, but I never got a direct answer for it.

I'm looking for force (not pressure) to activate or rotate the 6PI system. The reason I ask is because I have two similiar solenoids with very different pulling force available, the other difference is the price. One is twice as much as the other.

so which one will work for activation of the 6PI:
10oz Pull at 1/8" and a .5" stroke or...
28oz Pull at 1/8" and a .75" stroke or...
70oz Pull at 1/8" and a 1" stroke?

j0rd4n

Wait, you're saying stevej88na's solenoids need bicycle cable? I'm probably a little confused, but I never saw any bicycle cable in his video of the VDI activation. It looks like you just need to take that and then mount it horizontally instead of vertically, no? Obviously, heat might be an issue, but I was thinking that you could just heat-wrap whatever exhaust you used down to about the end of the motor and then exhaust temps would be much lower (I think I read that someone could actually grab their exhaust header after warming up because it was wrapped so well).

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

It was only mentioned in the write up. The reason for it is that heat will cause failure of the solenoid--force will be greatly reduced with the increase in heat. So the only way to have a non-sealed unit work in that inviroment would be to use a steel cable, aka bicycle cable. I think that's highly unlikely. The heat wrapping will reduce ambient temperatures but reducing it enough to touch--I find that tough to swallow. You still have convection to worry about beyond the radiation. But for the most part I think a heat shield will keep the radiation down and the convection will do no more harm than normal.

j0rd4n

I agree, I would still use a heat shield. What were your ideas for heat shield material for the solenoids? It seems like a metal heat shield would still absorb a bit of that heat via convection.

By the way, I'm also very interested in this, because I'm doing the S4->S5 intake swap, and I plan on ditching the air pump and would prefer to use electronic/RPM activation method. Keep me in mind in case you end up having boards printed off, because I'll probably go in with you if we have to buy in bulk (like the globalvicinity site says).

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

I don't think any boards will need to be printed. My idea is pretty similiar to stevej88na's idea of using an RPM switch. I've checked the power consumption on the solenoids i'm considering. They are 4.3, 7.8, 8.4 watts respectively. My thought is just a direct hook up to the RPM switch or auxilary output from a stand alone so they activate at a specific RPM. They don't need instantaneous activation so capacitors would not be necessary.

I'm curious at what the amperage would be. isn't it V*A=Watts? so that's what? 12v*A=4.3,7.8,8.4 so Amperage would be < 1amp?

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Yes, volts * amps = watts; you figured the amps right. If a solenoid has low power consumption and a high holding force it usually means that the solenoid moves slowly. The article you linked to discusses activation speed for a bit. Besides that, the force at 1" away will be much much lower than what it is at 1/8" away.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

So do you have any recommendations as to locations one could purchase sealed units that do not have significant amp draw and has enough force to activate the 6PI?

Can't one adjust the pull length on a solenoid such that a 1" stroke could be reduced to .5" prior to activation and then have full activation? My mind is thinking yes because it's only mechanical tension holding it open there (IE a spring). That would mean that I'm somewhat forced to go with the 70 oz pull rather than any of the others.

papiogxl

iTrader: (6)

There is always another option, its cheap as crap too.

https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/vacuum-6-ports-517463/

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

That won't work in my case. I need more room, which means the linear actuators need to be removed and replaced with something smaller.

j0rd4n

/subscribed

Your ideas for what you want appear to be right along the lines of what I'm looking for, except for the part you mentioned about not needing immediate activation. What kind of activation window are you looking at from closed->wide open?

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

I was thinking along the lines of stock activation time. Activating the 6PI all at once may proove to be less beneficial than one would think. Stock activation of the ports is directly perportional to the Pressure for activation (IE: RPM). The faster your RPM climbs the quicker the ports go to full open. This translates to a degree of rotation per RPM. However, the use of a step motor would not be the best bet since you'd need alot more hardware than just a few stepper motors.

If activation of the ports were done all at once there *might* not be any detriment to the power out put, but I think it would be more effective to have a port matched RPM cycle. So in this case; have activation of the ports via solenoid occur at 3500rpm and be fully opened by 4000rpm would be just fine for a preliminary run. What would be nice is if activation time could be set via RPM. Such that you could input at what RPM the solenoid activates and by what RPM it should be fully open. Unfortuanatly the only way I see this occuring is with the use of a stepper motor and stepper control--which would only apply to a specific or handful stand-alones or step motor controllers (Meaning it's otherwise impossible as far as I know to do similiar with a solenoid...unless you could figure out how to vary the voltage delivered to alter the activation time).

Sorry it's not more organized, but those are just a few of my thoughts before I run off to class.

If there's other ideas out there i'm all ears to hear 'em.

j0rd4n

Any progress or new information to share?

YaNi

iTrader: (2)

I found some push type solenoids here

The assembly would be much smaller then the one made here that used a pull type solenoid.

pfsantos

iTrader: (1)

What's wrong with locating the solenoid inside the cabin and using cable (as mentioned) to move the auxiliary valves? All you'd have to do is maybe fabricate a few brackets with springs to return the valves to closed, no?

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

If everything goes as planned and I get the parts i've already ordered back within the week (Not related to the 6PI System) I should be placing my orders for some solenoids and RPM switch in a few.

So far the part list includes the following (I've given up on trying to find any solenoid that has more heat resistenance than 266F):

2 x Solenoids rated to 266F with a min pull force of 10 oz at .5" (~$30-$40)
1 x RPM switch (~$50)
1 x ACV Block off plate (~$6)

Random pieces needed (~$20)

j0rd4n

Def keep us updated on that, man! If this works well, do you plan to use this for VDI activation as well?

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

I don't have an S5. SteveJ88n/a has covered it really indepth though.

Unfortunatly I probably have to push this back further than I had anticipated with news concerning my injectors. I'll have to purchase new ones before I start this project.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Okay, now that I'm some what back on schedule I can get back to locating the parts I am going to use. Unfortunatly the ones I had selected I've misplaced (the web address)... So among my searches I've found this one: Here Does anyone know what the AT stands for in the graph at the bottom? I'm pretty sure that's either series or temperature, but I can't think beyond that.

...well, nevermind. I found the ones I was looking at and I decided to go a different route with the solenoid selection (mostly just as a proof of concept. No sense in buying $40 solenoids unless I can get it to work with the $12 ones).

I should have two solenoids delivered to my place very shortly (tomorrow or the day after... haha, who am I kidding, it'll get here around the 1st if i'm lucky).

I'll be purchasing an RPM switch soon as well. We'll see how this all comes together in the next few weeks or so.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

So far for proof of concept, the price has come to $84.00 exactly. I'm expecting delivery of the parts come the 3rd or 4th... unfortunatly Summit has decided to ship to my billing address instead of my shipping address, which is a little peculiar of itself, but not to worry. Once I get my engine back together I'll just take a drive and pick it up.

(I have to find out where that one bolt went... I think I dropped it down the front 6PI--but I haven't been able to pick it up with a magnent...) I may just remove my LIM for this project since activation of the solenoids can be done using 12vDC, and I need only figure out the mounting location on the LIM. Then proceed to drill, tap, blockoff, and test. I also think I may be able to increase the effectiveness of the solenoid insulation by (as mentioned here) wrapping with a heat shield type wrap.

I do not think that a metal heat shield would be necessary, but quite infact, overkill. There are a few reasons I think of it that way.

1) It will cause more ventalation space to be taken by a form of metal that will only heat soak and then become a closer source of radiation.

2) Mounting of any future turbo unit will be interfered with.

3) Much better shielding can be found at various dealers/distributors (IE: Banzai, Summit, MazdaTrix, etc.) that protect against radiation very effectively. Insomuch as being able to withstand a minimum temperature of 451F.

That's all for now. I have to finish getting ready for a Materials class that I have a test in... do'h I knew I forgot something.

lax-rotor

iTrader: (1)

Solenoids came in today and if I knew where my camera was I'd take a picture of them. They're big, but definatly smaller than the linear actuators. Also the RPM switch has been delivered. I will be attempting preliminary runs with just the solenoids to test specific placement and spring strength.

Both solenoids are 80oz pull types. My first inclination is to mount the return spring outside of the solenoid by either welding a washer (or as the case may be epoxying it) as a stop towards the connective groove on the shaft. My second thought would be to place a similiar diameter spring internally in the solenoid. Both cases have benifits, both have things to be weary of, but unless some specific information comes up here or in my research I'll probably just place the spring internally in the solenoid.

j0rd4n

Nice; at the end I'd like a write-up of all the parts used so I can start putting a setup like this together

RX7Tuner.

Pictures would be appreciated as well.