![]() |
Serious Thread RE: Stand-Alones and Harness Modification
Warning, this is highly specific information that follows regarding customization and use of a stand-alone ECU (MoTec) on a second gen. It was started as a PM between Titanium TT and Myself. TTT has gone down this route before and there is alot of good information that both him and I feel that the forum may benefit from. Please keep this on topic and keep conjecture out of this thread. If you have different opinions concerning the ECU please be aware that the choice of the ECU is more than just price in my book. The PM's have also been edited to keep 'off the radar' persons off the radar. So, on with it already:
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
Basically i'm interested in running as much as I can off the ECU. That includes (of course) the engine, the turbo pressure regulator (is that even possible?), the e-fan, the fuel pump, and (this is where I'm not too sure if it's possible) a pair of solenoids to open the 6PI. I know they say it'll be worthless since i'll be in boost by the time they open... But i'd like to attempt it, if for nothing else just the opprotunity to say that I did it and dynoed it. I'd like to do that so I can adjust the activation point of the solenoids for whenever the situation is needed, not just always at 3500-3800.
Injectors x4 Ignition x4 (I don't like wasted spark - have you seen my ignition setup?) Wastegate BAC Fuel pump Fan Tach driver the proverbial Check Engine Light 6PI activation OMP??? If you can think of anything else write it down and start looking for ECU's. Personally I think it would be a great idea to have the 6-ports open when you want them too and be able to tune it to your liking. Good idea
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
This leads me to the next question, which ECU should I go for? I realize i'm not running exuberant amounts of other devices through the ECU but I would like to have an ECU that fits what I'm attempting but not be more than I need.
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
Where do I get the spools to outline and run the harness before I ship it off to be crimped and what not? Did you just use Dave to supply those as well?
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
There's also a few inputs i'm considering running beyond the norms; namely the wide band O2 for using the lambda tune option on the ecu, and a pair of EGT's. I've been told that there's a box and some fast reacting thermo couples available that will alter the voltage out of the EGT to be a 1-5v analog to allow the ECU to read it. Would this prove to be over kill with the Motec, or beneficial in the datalogging of the engine and help with tuning? I suppose another way of phrasing that; would it be available as a 3d graph read out of both front and rear rotor at the different RPM and Load sites--or would it just be used as a datalogging input?
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
And finally, how much should I expect to pay? I'm thinking upwards of $3500. Is that a good ball park estimate for the harness, connectors (including the cannon plugs), and ecu?
Here's a good question though. What are you going to do about an OMP??? That needs 4 outputs and and 2 inputs right there. Any time you have some questions, just lemme know. |
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
I understand it's tough finding the proper time to sit down and write out an indepth response like that and I greatly appreciate it. That answered alot of my basic questions and will give me a good source to build up from. With that price tag I'll have to save up a little more than I was planning on, but oh well. It's the price to play.
As for the OMP, I'm driving an S4 which is Mechanical, so I wouldn't even know where to begin with the that until I bought an S5 unit. There's always the option of premixing...but honestly the OMP seems to be fine just ignoring it for now (unless there's some hidden benifit between running an electric OMP versus a mechanical OMP).
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
Unfrotunatly I don't think I'll be able to just drop off my engine to have a harness made, and my harness is far from new. I think I may just outline it on the garage floor with tape (Using the old harness as a guide) and basically just map out the entire harness lengths that way. Send off the marked and bundled harness to Him and have him put on the new connectors and such. I think that might be the most cost effective for me I think. I'm thinking it'll be very similiar to the stock harness, minus of course the cannon plug and everything.
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
Another question regarding the ECU/Harness would be the type of injectors I'd need to run with it. Would I need Hi or Low Impedance injectors with the MoTec, or is it able to run both? I'd imagine it runs Hi Imp, but it's better that I bounce it out first to make sure.
|
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
I did what you said; and I am looking really hard at the M400. So far I like it alot and I have even been able to figure out the price for just the box ($2980.00+shipping, etc). While looking at the inputs and outputs I think I've figured out that I won't be using most of the solenoid valves on the engine because of how I'll be doing everything, but I was curious if you could go over my thought process and correct me if I'm mistaken.
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
This leaves me with a few more Aux. Outputs to fill in. According to the Magazine they (MoTec) have, there are 4 Fuel Injectors, 4 Ignition Drivers, 8 Aux., then there's something that confuses me a little bit: Sensor Power Supply, and Power Supplies for Sensors (0v, 5v, 8v)--Do you know what those are refering to?
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
The 4 Fuel and 4 Ignition's a gimme, but this is what I have so far for the 8 Aux Outputs:
1. Pressure Regulator Control Valve (Pending) - I don't think this is needed 2. Fan - Yes 3. Fuel Pump Yes 4. Wastegate (Do you have a link to an ECU controlled one?) Yes - look in the Motec Cat page 35 - air control valves or google haltech boost control solenoid - I believe SpeedMachinePerformance sells it. Yes they do - $90 no pic though 5. BAC (What does that even do anyways?) Yes - BAC is idle control - Very needed on a street car 6. 6PI (Front) - Yes but one for both would work fine. I would use the same Haltech boost solenoid 7. Tach Driver - Yes NEEDED 8. Warning Light (Should read 'Danger To Teh Manifold!1'Yes - DANGER DANGER in flashing lights!!)
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
Should I think about getting more inputs for any future upgrade to an electric OMP--I probably won't be doing that since I don't see any benefit to it... that is of course, unless you make insane horsepower by that complicated oil metering math you do.
I'm still trying to figure out the inputs right now so I won't waste your time in looking over my scribbles for those, but I was curious about this: Would EGT sensors fall under temperature input or voltage?--they have them broken up into different inputs on the M400. 6 Temperature Inputs and 8 Voltage Inputs. Sorry for the rambling on like this, but I just want to make sure I'm on the right track. No sense in spending hours and money going down a path that just makes me end up like this: Thanks OMP - I wouldn't worry about the inputs, you seem to have plenty, it's the outputs and the DC servo operation that you need to drive an electric OMP and the DC Servo is only available on the M820 & M880. :scratch: So unless you wanted to drop the extra coin to go the M820, I would just go mechanical. Of course though if you did go M820 and run the OMP you would still have some outputs left over for the future. (FWIW - the Haltech E11v2 can do the electric OMP and I BELIEVE it has the outputs that you need as well.) EGT - If you use that converter that BDC touts they are voltage. I believe the therma probes that Motec sells are temp (resistance based) |
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
Yeah, I've already got it in front of me. Looking at it I think I'd just need the telemetry package and the Lambda. Beyond that everything else would just be extra (like the extra features and the over boost--would any of those applications be practicle for my circumstances, i'm leaning towards no).
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
What's the Tach driver? Oh wait, where it hooks up to the dash?
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
Doesn't the Lambda heater get pulled from the regular plug? There shouldn't be another hook up should there (5 plug)?
Originally Posted by 'lax-rotor
Really? Looking at the mag it says all the ECU's only have 8 Aux outputs. Would some of the drivers be switched over to Aux instead? As for the OMP yeah, i'll probably stay mechanical. Less headache all the way around.
|
So here's a general question posed to the entire FC community:
What does the Pressure Regulator Control Solenoid Valve do? |
Looking up in the FSM it states:
Originally Posted by FSM
Pressure Regulator Control Solenoid Valve; Shuts vacuum passage between dynamic chamber and pressure regulator only during hot condition Orange.
|
Hmmm, sounds like an S5 thing which I am not overly aware of. What exactely is hot condition orange? This valve however something that can easily be controlled via the Motec to attain what mazda was after with the dynamic chamber. It could be controled at the same time as the aux ports or not, depending on you outputs.
You should definately get an aftermarker FPR though and plumb it strait to a manifold boost/vac source so it needs to be after the throttle plates. |
I forgot to respond to your overboost question. Overboost is what Motec calls anti-lag as far as I can tell from reading thier webpage. Personaly I don't plan on using it nor do I think it's a good idea or needed for small to midsize turbo's. It has some drawback.
To add to the auto-ignition. Also from what I understand and have been told is that it is not only the exhaust gases that are being pulled back into the intake stroke but it can also be the face of the rotor getting so damn hot that it will auto-ignite as well. |
Originally Posted by TitaniumTT
(Post 7935028)
Hmmm, sounds like an S5 thing which I am not overly aware of. What exactely is hot condition orange? This valve however something that can easily be controlled via the Motec to attain what mazda was after with the dynamic chamber. It could be controled at the same time as the aux ports or not, depending on you outputs.
You should definately get an aftermarker FPR though and plumb it strait to a manifold boost/vac source so it needs to be after the throttle plates. Alright, I was already planing on redoing my Fuel to SS and AN fittings all the way around so an FPR is a must I'm thinking.
Originally Posted by TitaniumTT
I forgot to respond to your overboost question. Overboost is what Motec calls anti-lag as far as I can tell from reading thier webpage. Personaly I don't plan on using it nor do I think it's a good idea or needed for small to midsize turbo's. It has some drawback.
To add to the auto-ignition. Also from what I understand and have been told is that it is not only the exhaust gases that are being pulled back into the intake stroke but it can also be the face of the rotor getting so damn hot that it will auto-ignite as well. With regard to the Solenoid, I think it might be okay to remove it. I don't thinka Hot condition is something the engine should ever encounter... even if it did, what would it do? It'd just make sure that the pressure of the fuel gets bumped up... at least that's what I'm figuring it would do. That could be accounted for in a map with the Engine Temp and pulse width and link it with the regular fuel table, increasing fuel dumped into the engine to maintain or decrease exuberant amounts of heat... That's just a guess though. |
After doing a little more research I think I've found out what the Pressure Regulator Control Solenoid Valve does.
Originally Posted by http://mazdarx7.iougs.com/fuel.shtml
...The pressure regulator control solenoid valve is energized only during a hot start condition. When intake air is hot (as indicated by intake air temperature sensor), the Engine Control Unit (ECU) energizes the solenoid valve and vents the FPR for 90 seconds. When the FPR is vented to the atmosphere (intake manifold pressure is maximum), the fuel pressure is raised to its upper limit (maximum fuel pressure)...
just for reference: At idle, the fuel pressure should be about 28.4 psi. When the FPR is vented to the atmosphere, the fuel pressure should be between 34.1 and 34.9 psi. With engine off, ignition key to the on position, and yellow connector jumped, the fuel pressure should be between 64.0 and 85.3 psi. |
Just dump that entire setup all together and set the FPR and let the 1:1 rising rate of it compensate when you build boost. That right there is an extra output that you don't need to worry about.
|
Alright. So the final Aux. Outputs would be the following:
1. WideBand O2 Heater 2. Fan 3. Fuel Pump 4. Wastegate 5. BAC 6. 6PI (Front & Rear) 7. Tach Driver 8. Warning Light/Danger To Teh Manifold |
Yes - And just to clarify the Fuel Pump is also the turn on for the ignition system relay as well. This works nicely becuase if the engine every stalls the fuel pump turns off as does the ignition system. I believe there is a short "prime" time that can be written in to build a little pressure and get a little charge on the coils before the key is turned to start.
|
For all in all, Cant you guys use the Haltech E8.
You have 3 aux. analog inputs and 1 aux digital input. The omp I think its much easier to go mechanical ( its recommended to go with new aftermarket TPS Anyways ), and Heck why not go with premixing, Like that you leave your engine oil alone , and premix nice fresh easier burning oil ( so you block off the omp injectors and unit ). so you save a few inputs outputs there. Price is also very tempting at say $ 1600 vs E11 for $ 2100 vs $ 4000 for the motec. The only down side I would say is the ignition input for the haltech, if you want something dead exact then get a hal effect sensor. ( an extra $ 100-150 ). and telemetry , I doubt any street car will actually use. 1. WideBand O2 Heater ( E8 check) 2. Fan ( E8 check) 3. Fuel Pump (E8 check) 4. Wastegate (E8 check) 5. BAC ( E8 check) 6. 6PI (Front & Rear) ( Im not 100 % sure how your going to use this, with the haltech boost solenoid ? ) 7. Tach Driver ( check ) 8. Warning Light/Danger To Teh Manifold everything there can be taken care with the E8 , ( just not to sure about the danger to manifold output, do you want an overboosting light ?signal ? ) |
Originally Posted by FC3S.USD
(Post 7939009)
For all in all, Cant you guys use the Haltech E8.
You have 3 aux. analog inputs and 1 aux digital input. The omp I think its much easier to go mechanical ( its recommended to go with new aftermarket TPS Anyways ), and Heck why not go with premixing, Like that you leave your engine oil alone , and premix nice fresh easier burning oil ( so you block off the omp injectors and unit ). so you save a few inputs outputs there. Price is also very tempting at say $ 1600 vs E11 for $ 2100 vs $ 4000 for the motec. The only down side I would say is the ignition input for the haltech, if you want something dead exact then get a hal effect sensor. ( an extra $ 100-150 ). and telemetry , I doubt any street car will actually use. 1. WideBand O2 Heater ( E8 check) 2. Fan ( E8 check) 3. Fuel Pump (E8 check) 4. Wastegate (E8 check) 5. BAC ( E8 check) 6. 6PI (Front & Rear) ( Im not 100 % sure how your going to use this, with the haltech boost solenoid ? ) 7. Tach Driver ( check ) 8. Warning Light/Danger To Teh Manifold everything there can be taken care with the E8 , ( just not to sure about the danger to manifold output, do you want an overboosting light ?signal ? ) The "Danger To Teh Manifold" is a TIC comment about the Original Fast and the Furious where the main character runs too much NOSS through his system and his laptop warns him "DANGER TO THE MANIFOLD" All it would be in my case would be a warning light saying hey, stop trying to blow up your engine, etc. |
Originally Posted by FC3S.USD
(Post 7939009)
For all in all, Cant you guys use the Haltech E8.
You have 3 aux. analog inputs and 1 aux digital input. The omp I think its much easier to go mechanical ( its recommended to go with new aftermarket TPS Anyways ), and Heck why not go with premixing, Like that you leave your engine oil alone , and premix nice fresh easier burning oil ( so you block off the omp injectors and unit ). so you save a few inputs outputs there. Price is also very tempting at say $ 1600 vs E11 for $ 2100 vs $ 4000 for the motec. The only down side I would say is the ignition input for the haltech, if you want something dead exact then get a hal effect sensor. ( an extra $ 100-150 ). everything there can be taken care with the E8 , ( just not to sure about the danger to manifold output, do you want an overboosting light ?signal ? ) Premixing is just a personal preference thing and I personally will never do it unless I'm running STUPID amounts of horsepower and on the ragged edge. I personally hate it and will never do it. Period. I agree the TPS on the S4 should be replaced with a full range TPS. Perhaps just using an S5 TB and then the cruise control bracket to operate the OMP via cable? :dunno: Pondered it myself but then saif 'eff it and ran the Cosmo. Motec M400 can be had for <$3000 Using a hal effect sensor for ignition is such a joke. Why not fix the Haltechs problem. I firmly believe the problem lies in the haltech harness. The Off-The-Radar gent mentioned above has repeatedly built harnesses for rotaries NOT using Haltechs harness and he has never had an ignition problem. This was one of my concerns because my coils are mounted where the PS/AC once lived and the ign triggers are run WITH the CAS wires. He laughed and told me not to worry about it. In conversation with him he was telling me about some new sales rep that he was talking to just lamblasting Haltechs harnesses. I've seen a few of them and I don't know how much was Haltech and how much was doth creator but they were an absolute joke to look at. |
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
(Post 7939350)
Short answer, yes. Long answer not exactly. You'd have to see my original post to see what I mean by that.
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
(Post 7939350)
I'm doing a specific alteration to the 6PI (see attached thread after the edit) where activation is achieved purly electronically. I've ordered the parts to start the project and hope to have a working proof of concept come mid-summer if not sooner. Here's the link: 6PI Electronic Solenoid Activation
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
(Post 7939350)
The "Danger To Teh Manifold" is a TIC comment about the Original Fast and the Furious where the main character runs too much NOSS through his system and his laptop warns him "DANGER TO THE MANIFOLD" All it would be in my case would be a warning light saying hey, stop trying to blow up your engine, etc.
TPS AIT MAP Exhaust mani pressure 2ndard turbo pressure Coolant temp Oil Pressure Oil Temp Fuel pressure Lambda Low sump oil Low 2-stroke oil and EGT's if I like Now the really cool part - with all of those inputs I can have CAN communications with my dash and display whatever I want. I have 6 indiviadual warning lights that I can taylor to my liking. From what you've described - Haltech lacks the inputs to really monitor everything and now we're building one harness for the Haltech and one harness for everything else. |
Originally Posted by TitaniumTT
(Post 7939567)
Without looking into that thread I really think the overly simple way is boost control solenoid wired to the ECU. Completely programable once 3-5PSI of boost is reached
It's a general warning light that can signify anything from overheating to loss of pressure to a bad sensor etc etc et. This is where the Haltech really trully fails. There simply are not enough inputs from the haltech. Inputs to my Motec are as follows TPS AIT MAP Exhaust mani pressure 2ndard turbo pressure Coolant temp Oil Pressure Oil Temp Fuel pressure Lambda Low sump oil Low 2-stroke oil and EGT's if I like Now the really cool part - with all of those inputs I can have CAN communications with my dash and display whatever I want. I have 6 indiviadual warning lights that I can taylor to my liking. From what you've described - Haltech lacks the inputs to really monitor everything and now we're building one harness for the Haltech and one harness for everything else. |
Originally Posted by TitaniumTT
(Post 7939567)
:werd: - support, software, development etc etc etc
Without looking into that thread I really think the overly simple way is boost control solenoid wired to the ECU. Completely programable once 3-5PSI of boost is reached It's a general warning light that can signify anything from overheating to loss of pressure to a bad sensor etc etc et. This is where the Haltech really trully fails. There simply are not enough inputs from the haltech. Inputs to my Motec are as follows TPS AIT MAP Exhaust mani pressure 2ndard turbo pressure Coolant temp Oil Pressure Oil Temp Fuel pressure Lambda Low sump oil Low 2-stroke oil and EGT's if I like Now the really cool part - with all of those inputs I can have CAN communications with my dash and display whatever I want. I have 6 indiviadual warning lights that I can taylor to my liking. From what you've described - Haltech lacks the inputs to really monitor everything and now we're building one harness for the Haltech and one harness for everything else. I personally find that us RX7 owners or heck any car modifier owners, jump the gun on parts, always buying what we thing will be best , but never actually putting it to use or enjoying car( llike in garage for most of the time ). I personally Try to do it the SIMPLEST way possible. ( I personally have no use for all the spare inputs outputs,.). this is what I would use. TPS MAP coolant air temp Fans Pumps BAC ( not a must ,but nice to have on a loaded street car ). Wideband Datalogging ( then have descent coolant and or air compensation maps with decent throttle pump control and a decent tuning map, anything more than 16x16 is great ) The less the main EMS has to do the better. Ive heard a few tuners say that. then boost control a nice EBC they can be had for cheap and come with over boost warning and heck even scramble boost or 2 boost settings ). Tach light , can be had for cheap, but even the most basic EMS can take care of this. Customer Support , you are right , this is KEY for some. Personally the times Ive tried contacting manufactures for anything I ahve better luck asking fellow enthusiasts. ( oh and regarding the haltech CAS wire, I dont think its due to harness, but to the universality of the pick up ( its designed for so many styles of inputs ). but it does work good enough for 90 % out there without the hall effect. Now if we go with the bling stuff like motec and tec3 they bring there own wheeel ( im not sure if the motec does ). =---- PLEASE DONT GET ME WRONG, im not saying what ems is better etc. Just saying for most of the people out there you must measure what you want with what you need. In this case the MOTEC the only asnwer for you guys. :) Anyways so like wheres the install thread :) haha. I want to see it. Okey i wont polute the thread anymore. |
Originally Posted by lax-rotor
(Post 7939591)
Unfortunatly that won't exactly work with me. The linear actuators are too big, so when I install the turbo they would interfer with mounting. This leaves me only with the option of going another way to achieve linear or rotational motion to the 6PI. One option is a Step motor which would give extremely fine control and could be controlled through a higher version of MoTec ECU's if i'm not mistaken (eg. M800). A rotational solenoid, or a linear solenoid. This will allow more room to be made along the manifold so there will be no interference with the turbo.
Good to know TTT I'll use this list as my reference as I'm planning on figuring out the inputs next. We'll see what I come up with. Yes the Motec M820 & M880 have the option of a DC servo control. This can also be used to drive the OMP as it will be in my case. |
Originally Posted by FC3S.USD
(Post 7939770)
That seems very fair, and IF you are going to put to use all the spare inputs outputs then , yes e11 is better, and then your close enough to the motec price. That if you wanted to do all that its worth it.
Originally Posted by FC3S.USD
(Post 7939770)
The less the main EMS has to do the better. Ive heard a few tuners say that.
then boost control a nice EBC they can be had for cheap and come with over boost warning and heck even scramble boost or 2 boost settings ). I don't believe the Haltech can do that. Install thread...... I'll post some pics in here over the course of the next week I guess.
Originally Posted by FC3S.USD
(Post 7939770)
( oh and regarding the haltech CAS wire, I dont think its due to harness, but to the universality of the pick up ( its designed for so many styles of inputs ). but it does work good enough for 90 % out there without the hall effect. Now if we go with the bling stuff like motec and tec3 they bring there own wheeel ( im not sure if the motec does ).
=---- PLEASE DONT GET ME WRONG, im not saying what ems is better etc. Just saying for most of the people out there you must measure what you want with what you need. In this case the MOTEC the only asnwer for you guys. :) Anyways so like wheres the install thread :) haha. I want to see it. Okey i wont polute the thread anymore. |
Originally Posted by TitaniumTT
(Post 7939848)
You have a perfect opportunity to build a bitchin' one off tubular manifold :D But sometimes the more involved methods are the better methods. They are certainly the more fun thats for damn sure.
Yes the Motec M820 & M880 have the option of a DC servo control. This can also be used to drive the OMP as it will be in my case. |
If you do that just make sure that the harness is built with that plan in mind. Actually I would just go with the M820 to start off with then. The difference in cost is ~ $1300 between the M400 and the M820. Unless of course V2 is a few years down the road. Then it makes sense to go M400 now and redo everything later on.
|
Yeah, V2 is years down the road.
|
Thank you for the excellent information provided in this thread. I am currently in the process of evaluating various EMS and it looks like Motec is the way to go. I was looking at the m2r, but it simply doesn't have enough outputs to run the factory idle control and OMP. Factors I hadn't considered until reading this thread.
My car is a daily driver, which gets put onto the track regularly, so I need Motec's ability to get great fuel economy safely (ie lambda targets) as well as the ability to at the flick of a switch change to a safe track setup (with thresholds to stop me destroying the car) with all the trick boost control and traction control features. The more I read about the motec, the more it fits into what I want to achieve with this car. I also agree about Motecs service, I have sent a number of unsolicited emails to their support email address, and have always received an excellent response quickly. I will subscribe to this thread, and watch with great interest the outcomes. |
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:05 AM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands