Gryffinwings

iTrader: (3)

Currently I am working on gathering parts for a 6-port T2 turbo setup, however I'm also planning on messing with the NA setup, see what's possible. What I wanted to know with this question is, how much better is a standalone, how much more finely tuned can you get. What do you mean by accuracy and resolution is better?

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Ahhh wellI have worked for MOTEC dealersinthe past, so no the tech support is not bad, you just need to know who to call. Motec is not like other ECU companies in that they sell to dealers only, and the dealer is the one who is supposed to do the install and troubleshoot any issues.
Couple of MOTEC memories-

A fellow who travels to OZ quite a bit buys a MOTEC there, going around MOTEC USA. He is told specifically that MOTEC USA will not support him if he does this, but does it anyway. He has many issues with his self-install. Luckly for him the MOTEC dealer in town took pity and helped him out. The car still had issues unrelated to the MOTEC, and I have no idea where it all ended up. But the end result was he got what he needed.

Another one- Motec advertises a PNP STI ECU. The only one ever sold in the US is installed by the local MOTEC dealer. The car runs but has issues with the diff control, which in road racing an AWD car is where your laptime is. MOTEC USA is at a loss, so refer to MOTEC AUS. MOTEC AUS has not experienced the issue, so they went out ant got an 09/10 STI brought it in and were duplicating the tests etc. to help get this to work.
THATS customer service!

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

Cool- did not know that I will make a few people aware of that locally.

Gryffinwings

iTrader: (3)

How well would this work with a Series 4 NA engine?

driftxsequence

iTrader: (8)

whew! I was worried my future RTEK purchase was going to be a waste. I have an S/4 N/A and I'm hoping with the RTEK I can monitor things a little more closely than the dash gauges - along with tune for a few more ponies and gas mileage. I realize not much can be done with an n/a so for the price of 450$ and getting introduced to tuning and monitoring a car how can that be BAD?????????

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

Any engine management is only as good as the tuning/tuner. We have had great success with the PFC on N/A cars, we have created a vacuum only map for the system that utilizes all the cells.

Gryffinwings

iTrader: (3)

Ok, now I'm intrigued, the PFC is definitely in my sights now, not to mention how much more affordable it is then most other engine management systems.

Could you go over some details of how well the PFC works on an NA, well well as what capabilities you have with it when tuning NA? I suppose I would have full control of any injector I would like to use. Could you provide any review kind of information specifically for NA RX7s?

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

Like any engine management, the PFC gives you full control over timing, fuel, etc. You can add a knock sensor if you like, control an e-fan, etc

That being said the AEM can do the same thing.

We have achieved 199rwhp out of a non-ported S5 N/A on a Mustang Dyno. This was on the break in tune for an ITS race car, with just a full exhaust, MSD 6A and a set of 550 injectors. After break in this should increase to 210-215. Dyno sheet at the bottom of the gallery http://www.banzai-racing.com/dyno_gallery.htm

barnett87rx7

iTrader: (1)

to the original question ... standalones can offer things like idle control, multiple maps, and some can double as boost controllers that the rtek cant but the rtek doesnt require any wiring or new sensors which might force you to drill and tap it is straight plug and play. the tuning is fairly simple the only issue i had with it was all tuning was done on a tiny palm which is annoying after a ccpl mins. But if you are just slightly moding your car it is by far the way to go its cheap and easy to use with no moding required...

That being said im surprised no one has mentioned megasquirt as a possible EMS. if you want a full standalone on a budget and you have some electrical skills this is the way to.

Gryffinwings

iTrader: (3)

Wow, that's actually really impressive, I honestly wasn't expecting that much power from the stock ports. How good is the powerband with this tune?

Anymore specifics? What kind of gas was it running? How aggressive was the tuning?

I'm going to be actually doing something very similar, but instead of 550cc injectors, I am going to be using RX8 yellow injectors. I also need to pick up a header for mine as well.

I'll be doing all this prior to turbo charging, if I find that I like it, I'll shelve the turbo parts for now and have fun with it until I desire more power.

AmT_T

iTrader: (11)

I think the question we should all be asking ourselves is: What do I need in an EMS?

Gryffinwings

iTrader: (3)

Well in my case, reliable, affordable, and very versatile, which apparently the Apexi Power FC fulfills rather nicely.

Evil Aviator

The Rtek 2.0 is a piggyback that lets you change many of the parameters of the crappy old stock ECU that was designed in the 1980s. An actual standalone EMS completely replaces the stock ECU and AFM, which increases or adds some abilities and reduces or eliminates others, depending on the particular EMS.

The optimal method for selecting an EMS is to shop for a local tuner rather than an EMS. The idea here is to tell your tuner what you want and let him figure out how to make it happen. See my posts in this thread:
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=669577

Since you live in Kalifornia, your options may be limited.

Versatility rarely matters. For example, do you really need an EMS that will control Honda VTEC cam timing, wasted spark ignition on an Allison V12 engine, sequential fuel injection for up to 12 cylinders, and outputs real-time telemetry data to your pit crew? Talk to your tuner about what you really need and don't worry about the rest of the bells and whistles that you will never use.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Rtek 2.1 can control fuel and timing just fine. No custom wiring is needed to control both the aux ports and VDI on s5 applications (it uses the factory soleniods). The Power FC can't independently control both of those out-of-the-box. The Power FC requires removal of the vane airflow meter but on a sub 300whp application it's not a big restriction.

I have a Power FC on my T2. The advantage of the Power FC isn't so much that it's versatile. Compared to other standalones, it's really not (no real switched output capability for example, and no knock control). The advantage is that it was engineered to work on a rotary, so lots of Rx-7 specific things work out-of-the-box with minimal hassle. There is no time or trouble spent with crank angle sensor configuration/wiring. The s5 OMP works if you want to keep it and there is zero setup required. If you had sequential twin turbos you can control that right out of the box with zeros setup required. It can work with the FD, s5, or s4 TPS.

It can control boost if you know how to set it up and tune it. The injector staging is also IMO the easiest to configure of all the standalones. It controls the A/C out of the box as well, in exactly the same way as factory. It plugs right into the factory harness and has OEM-grade electrical noise filtering--so yes, it will work with old harnesses just fine as long as they aren't completely trashed. I have a 24-year-old harness on my car with integrated OEM resistor pack so I could run low impedence injectors.

The PFC is still going to cost you money though. You have to buy the unit, and I recommend you get it new because you will want the new hand controller which is much easier to read. If you want laptop access and datalogging you have to buy a separate box for that. To make it work on an FC you have to buy the adapter. Even with used parts it still adds up.

dennis blackstone

is the power fc user freindly
without being a professional tuner
also can you hook it up in your driveway

Gryffinwings

iTrader: (3)

I think I will wait for Banzai Racing to reply here, there are some good points brought up about the Rtek 2.0 that I'd like to see if there is a counter argument made for the PFC.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

I do not know what "argument" you are trying to provoke. You can put whatever ECU you want in your car. If you are on a budget, then stick with the stock unit, if you want something more controllable and have the money to spend, then there are options.

Dennis-yes the PFC and AEM can both be hooked up in ones driveway, with our adapter they are PNP for the most part. Tuning however can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Even a simple S-AFC can be tuned terribly wrong, I have seen this first hand.

dennis blackstone

so before purchasing one of these unit ...your saying to educate yourself in tunning
ive read few threds on tuning
but are there any tips and rules
for tunnig eg ...injector staging

Gryffinwings

iTrader: (3)

No, not what I meant, I meant sorta like counter argument or debate against, not a fight argument.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Honestly, it's experience. One could write an entire chapter on it and a person with no experience is still going to struggle. When I worked with my first EMS, I spent months getting it right. And it still wasn't right! Yesterday I tuned a car from scratch, no base map at all, in about an hour with a tune I'm very pleased with. Experience is the key.

There are a couple books that I recommend. They're filled with good general information on how engine management systems work and what an engine needs to work properly. But in the end, you the tuner, needs to make it happen by feel and knowledge. The only way to gain that is experience.

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Managem...4211459&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Modify-Managem...4211489&sr=1-2

Gryffinwings

iTrader: (3)

I actually have the 2nd book but not the first.

Bamato

iTrader: (6)

I'm not sure this is really important to the OP or not, but does the PFC have the ability to give you CEL codes like the RTEK can?

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

still didn't see were his goals are listed, i'm sure that would end this EMS debate.
IMHO Goal<350=Rtek 2.x.

Haters call an Rtek a piggyback. simple truth is, when they update it to lose the AFM, and add in a few duty cycle controlled outputs, it will put it even more on par with everybody else.

Further more, YOU CAN USE ANY SENSOR with the rtek, it has the option within the software to define any parameters for such. although it only supports two extra over the stock.and things like the ECT and TPS can't be made to use one of these after market sensors, the extra two are more for datalogging, and display, like EGT,Lambda(a/f), boost/backpressure, knock.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

the PFC does not utilize the check engine light anymore, it was built for Jspec cars and adapted for use on american cars by people in the US that wanted to have standalone EMS options aside from chipping their ECU. maybe Banzai rewired their adapter for the FC so that it uses the CEL versus the overheat exhaust temp light circuit which is how it works on the USDM cars with the PFC but that is only an ECU error indicator, the PowerFC does not have a trouble code generator circuit for the CEL.

if there is an issue it is easy to figure out by looking at the hand controller or laptop sofware unlike the stock ECU which gives no live data feeds for diagnosing issues. the Rtek 2.0/2.1 still generates codes like the stock ECU does.

Banzai-Racing

iTrader: (11)

Correct, it is easier then Check Engine codes, all the info is available on the Commander sensor/switch check screen http://www.banzai-racing.com/store_i...werFC_FD3S.pdf