RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

well, today while i was doing a used vehicle inspection on a Saab 900 turbo i was taking a look at the intercooler setup on it thinking it was a nice setup for a universal application then i looked at the A/C condenser and an idea clicked in my head....

my idea is fairly simple but i forsee some problems with it. first, the idea is a intercooler module that uses refrigerant vapors from a standard A/C cooling system much like a evaporator core cools the cabin in a car. the module would be a sealed system using the refrigerant vapors to super cool the intake air as it passes the plates inside the sealed/divided system. the module could be placed anywhere in the engine compartment due to the modular design but obviously keeping it away from heat sources to keep it from heat soaking would be best.

the downside to this is it requires the A/C compressor to be running at all times during boost, ultimately putting more drag on the engine and likely would require an underdrive pulley to keep the compressor from burning up due to high RPM applications. the extra drag caused by the A/C compressor would be traded off with lower intake air temperatures ultimately allowing for higher horsepower gains from the engine due to a more dense air charge, this would also help prevent detonation.

i am still not all that experienced with turbos since this is my first forced induction car but i do know the basics and after thinking this over the tradeoff sounds like it would be worth it. i doubt i am the first to think of such a thing but i am wondering what the major drawbacks of using susch a system would be since i could virtually find no info on the subject on this site or on the net for that matter... i have never been revolutionary in my experiments so i'm sure this has been tried before and canned but i figured it would be worthy of a discussion anyhow.

another benefit of such a system would be it could be run paralell to the cabin refrigeration system to allow both cooling of the intercooler and still have A/C in the cockpit for those who choose to have both.

so am i retard or does this sound feasible?

Kenteth

You're trying for >100% efficiency in physics. Aint gonna happen. Stick with energy thats available, like wind for the intercooler.

On the other hand, if you had a second 5-10hp motor in the hatch running only the AC-intercooler system, it might work.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

everything has pros and cons, harnessing the wind also adds drag to the car. please give explanations why one method is better than the other, i thought about the extra drag on the engine but i also figured that the cooling effects of using a refrigerant would also cool the intake charge about 10 times what the wind could do.


the underdrive pulley would also help reduce this drag to reduce top end power loss.

sar

iTrader: (1)

I too have had that idea plopped in my mind.

You already noticed the downside, the parasitic loss from the air conditioning. The question is if this drain is less than the power created from it. Supposedly in NA terms you get 1hp for every 10*(C i believe)) your drop an intake. Typically your A/C low side temp should probably be about 40* fahrenheight, compared to outside air (front mount intercooler effect) so probably about a 30-40* difference == about 5 hp. I would not think that economical. THIS IS ARBITRARY and COMPLETELY INACCURATE

Also, the way an intercooler works in theory (or any heat sink) is that its receiving a lot of air over a large surface area effect (like from a fan on a comp heatsink) You would also need to consider any fan and the incredible volumes of air that you are trying to cool in the time it takes for the air to get from your turbo to your engine (extremely quickly). If you are cooling something then the cold side of the ac will need time to absorb the heat from that object. So if you had your car ac cooling a house with a fairly large fan it would obviosley have very little effect.

A way to not be parasitic would be to use these small electronic thermocouples called peltiers (look on ebay). You could provide a temporary electric boost (battery pack and cap) to keep your car cool for a short period of time maybe before a race.

It would not be convenient to cool both the cabin and the intercooler at the same time because you would be doubling your cold side and therefore be transferring twice as much heat to the same sized warm side, ultimately this would barely cool both cold sources and might actually cause the hot side to get so warm that your a/c becomes incredibly ineffective.

Some have talked about a shot of co2 or n2o onto the intercooler to cool it down also.

Water injection would also provide you w/ less detonation, a cleaner engine, and more power due to the volumetric and heat properties of steam combines with the non burning factor.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

that is interesting, i didn't think about the volume of air that it would need to cool, this would easily overheat a normal sized condenser and cause the system to stall while it cooled. see, i told you i was not revoltionary in my inventions, lol...

a peltier is a good idea for temporary cooling but i was thinking long term, it sounded good in my head at first but i knew there was a flaw with it or it would be widely accepted by now.

kevlar999

Well then basically you would have to find ways to draw heat from the intercooler, if you are thinking about how a computer heatsink works, theres peltiers, and water cooling to draw heat out and cpu heatsinks are pretty damn effecient. So maybe you could find someway maybe to put something to watercool the the intercooler somehow and link it in to the stock cooling system or attach peltiers to the intercooler to the top flush part of the intercooler to draw heat how with some heat sink compound and get a intake temp gauge to measure if its making a diff or not. :\ I guess the gain would be pretty minimal and not really worth it though..

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

the intercooler water cooler would have to separate from the engine cooling, the coolant from the engine would be inefficient in cooling the intercooler, in fact it would likely have a warming affect on cooling it. a peltier system would probably be best but figuring out the cooling system to use with it is the issue.

SmogSUX

iTrader: (12)

Would running a C02 sprayer work almost as good, but with no power loss from the ac belt? Or N2...but C02 is much cheaper and I'm..well cheap

Sorry to hijack a little, but you think it would be worth getting a co2 sprayer for my top mount? If I can get the bottle realy cheap? I haven't seen any "halos" small enough for our tmic, but I guess I could fab one up..

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

good question, only time i see people using CO2 to cool the IC is at the drag strip but a sprayer to cool it from the cockpit has been done before, i just wonder if it is worth the effort though.

BlaCkPlaGUE

You could mod out *maybe* a water-air intercooler with the peltier(s). So you could have for example the air-water cooler inside the bay and route the pump lines to a couple or radiators with a good pump on the front of the car for the fluid cooling. You could maybe run oil instead of water for the cooling process, **** if I know.

I have not read any of the posts above, so im not going to comment about the AC idea (I dont think it will work). If anything, try and improve whats already out there. The way I see it for turbocharging ideas, is if you can think about doing it, someone has already tried it in the last 20 years.. trust me. If it was really practical, then it would be in place right now. If you think its more than practical and no one knows, try it out for yourself and see.

The electrical load on the peltiers and pumps would be pretty crazy, heh.. you might even want to consider a seperate battery or alt just for that job.

NZConvertible

This idea has been tried before and is always a failure. The gains either do not outweigh the losses compared to more common intercooler approaches (i.e. power lost to the AC compressor), or if they do are so small as to not warrant all the extra time and effort required to make it work okay.

Schmitty

iTrader: (11)

Could you run Propane and Nitrous into the Air intake... The expansion of the gas in the intake would cool the incomming air and you would benefit from the added fuel...lor would this just be asking for a big explosion? What about misting water over the intercooler to take advantage of evaporative cooling?

Brandon Robinson

iTrader: (3)

I spent a decade building armored cars of all sorts. One of the best things to do when adding a ton or more of armor to a car is to start off with one that has some form of forced air induction. Through the years we happened across a contract for a Mercedes Benz S660. The car came with only two options from the dealer, Paint color and wheel package. The car came with a twin turbo v12. As I was disassembling the car I had to take the A/C lines loose before I pulled the dashboard out. While I was under the hood I noticed a very intricate plumbing of the refrigeration system. Then I noticed that the intakes where plumbed into a box that the a/c lines ran through. After scratching my head an following the plumbing around came to the conclusion that the intercoolers where refrigerated. Talk about a fast car, this thing was the largest boat Mercedes made but it pulled so hard in second gear it would almost make you black out.

Your ideal of refrigerated intercoolers is not only a great ideal, it is already in production.

They ran a stock boost of 22psi.

sleeper7

How about using a water/air intercooler but instead of ice water running throw the core have a small nitrous shot run throw it. Would take a few test to find the right jet that would not cause the intercooler to freeze but may work. Bet a 25/50 shot would work.

Brandon Robinson

iTrader: (3)

Just find the right size evaporator coil and add some end caps.

barkz

iTrader: (1)

or you could just get a Cry02 Kit and call it a day. and btw, hello 2005

dwb87

iTrader: (22)

I'm actually glad you revived this thread. I have never found it. I've only recently thought about a refrigerated intake box... A refrigerated intercooler would be an even better idea, though. Shows you how far ahead Karack was/is.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Yes, there have been several cars and trucks that have used A/C refrigeration to cool the air to water intercooler stock.

First I had heard of it was the early '90s GM Syclone truck.

You basically want to have a high mass water to air heat exchanger (bigger and heavier the better) with lines for the A/C refrigerant where the water would normally be and run your water to where the intake air would normally go. This is a easy cheap way to get high surface area heat exchanger.

The high mass is good because when you are on the throttle you want your A/C to cut off (just like stock) so you aren't wasting power to the A/C compressor. The high mass of the A/C chilled heat exchanger will slow your water temp rise as you boost.

You still run other air to water heat exchangers.

Brandon Robinson

iTrader: (3)

The loss in horsepower is so small when compared to the gain of running the compressor. In essence is is an air over evaporated refrigerant setup. I have been looking at the stock evaporator coil and it would make a worthy component for a test build. We have some really advanced aluminum mig welders at work I really want to build one now...

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

lol, i totally forgot about this idea....

would be alot of work but it would definitely work and many have used similar in the form of a water to air intercooler with icewater. of course that is only a temporary thing where an A/C system could cool the core much quicker and much more often when the power loss from the compressor is not apparent. running it continuously would negate the power gains(or would it? keep reading). for a strict drag racing application it may work but also adds a bit of weight but would be virtually maintenance free.

thing about IAT drop is it allows you to run more boost. so arguably the compressor may draw 5% total horsepower but if it allows you to run 2-3 more PSI safely then the horsepower gains CAN in fact push beyond the loss from the compressor. of course race gas would be the simple option versus pump gas with it's rather low autoignition tables. thing to remember about turbos is they are not all created equal, one turbo may only push 10whp per psi where another can push 50+whp per psi of boost at certain pressure levels.


timing the compressor actuation could be another route, well, feasable. we need a mythbuster episode for this!

create a system capable of cooling the cabin and the intercooler and you may have something(mentioned above) for a street car with creature comforts and additional safety for running higher boost. problem i foresee with that is the RPM speed of the compressor near redline would likely be hammering most conventional A/C compressors, even stock most newer 7's cut off the compressor at WOT.

damn my german brain..

SpeedOfLife

iTrader: (16)

That's a great point about being able to run higher boost, at first glance I didn't think this had much potential. For a lot of the time during WOT the wastegate is opened far, wasting some energy that could be put to use compressing the intake charge more. The electric AC system makes much more sense for this use, just like electric water pumps.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Think Liquid-to-Air core for intake looped to Liquid-to-Refrigerant core. Could be the same exact model as LtoA. The liquid acts adds buffering capacity so that during boost, it is ok for the compressor to shut off. Add a small surge tank for increased liquid capacity and expansion. Add TXV on the Liquid-to-Refrigerant. Temperature switch on the Liquid-to-refrigerant that turns on the circulation pump- attempts to maintain the liquid in the loop at a temperature set of choice-say, 60* or 75* liquid temp.



Advantages: Disadvantages:This is and has been my plan for my future N/A Turbo Convertible project. Project is on the back-burner while restoring my 10 Anny.

Several modifications need to be done the the refrigeration loop and to the stock compressor controls to accommodate the additional hardware, but that is beyond the scope of this post. Plus I don't want to give away all my random thoughts and lead someone down a frivolous path.

Brandon Robinson

iTrader: (3)

I like the electric ideal and chilled water but my concern is added weight. Forget creature comforts, the ideal is to use everything under the hood. the A/C compressor hammer/cavitation is an easy fix, simply under-drive the pulley. Refrigerant flow will not really be needed until higher rpm's where the turbo starts really moving some air and increasing IAT's. The air/water/refrigeration ideal really does have potential if it where tied into a alcohol injection system, 50/50 mix would have a significantly lower freezing point allowing you to prechill both the AI and intercooler. With the right alternator, power inverter, and mini fridge coils you could potentially bring the fluid temps to -40f before the fluid would start to freeze. This would be great for time attack or drag applications. My ideal is to run a system that does not require a regeneration cycle and runs continuously, the potential extends beyond performance and can affect economy and longevity as well.

Brandon Robinson

iTrader: (3)

Going out and i mean way out on a limb here. Travel trailers have a propane refrigeration system that uses a furnace to refrigerate, something similar could be used in conjunction with exhaust gasses.

beefhole

iTrader: (29)

I like driving my car in the winter.
Water injection is nice too.

I'm sure someone will build this fantastic system into a 25 year old FC.