MIDNFauciUSN

iTrader: (8)

I've been reading the FSM wiring diagrams pretty closely and am pretty sure I'm ready to do what I want to do...

Background first:

Bought the car in 2010... sticky starter ever since, car has never left me stranded due to starter not eventually (3 or 4 tries) cranking.

This week I finally decided to do something about it. I have some money laying around, so I got a reman starter from O'reilly... knowing the reputation of them. I took it home, bolted it up, and it wouldn't crank. Fuming, I took it back (assuming it was another shitty reman) and they bench tested it... it worked.

I have no logicon, already pulled - so no real reason to consider the effect of bypassing all of that crap. I still actually have to pull the blower and whatnot out, but that may happen after sevenstock. I also pulled the anti-theft system out... it was pissing me off because I have shaved door handles. Every time I wanted to open the door, I had to reach inside and turn the key in the ignition or risk having the horn start blaring.

I also just received a new ignition switch. The old one was pretty beat. Who knows, that alone may have fixed the whole problem. I have already cleaned the grounds on the engine thoroughly.

The question is that since I have none of these outside systems to worry about, can I simply run the B/R starter wire straight from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid, or should I use a relay for the hell of it. This car only sees the road a couple times a month, so wear would be relatively minor. I realize that a relay would drastically reduce that wear on the starter switch, but in your opinion is is worth it, or even required? I guess I just dont know what the ignition switch is built to handle as far as the arcing upon activation of the starter...

Thanks.

AGreen

iTrader: (11)

I know I'm going to get put on blast, but why not

Mazda does some seriously dumb **** sometimes. The window switches, for instance. That's stupid. Why would you want all the current going through them? Then, once you install a couple of relays, magically the windows work like they're brand new.

See what I'm getting at?

I'd go for a heavy duty relay and see what happens. You can get a nice 80A relay online for pretty cheap.

satch

iTrader: (1)

If you removed the alarm unit from the system then the Starter Cut Relay would have to be jumpered for the starter solenoid to receive voltage w/key to start or did you already do this?

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i always find the starters work better after i bypass the clutch safety switch. if you look at the circuit, in an 86 Rx7, the power comes into the ignition switch, and then goes right to the starter.

in 87 they add the safety switch, but only in america, because we sue when we hit the wrong pedal.

somewhere in there they add the starter cut relay for the alarm too.

once you add these things into the circuit, and the clutch switch starts getting old, voltage drops at the starter solenoid, and you get the click click start thing.

MIDNFauciUSN

iTrader: (8)

Satch, I had the anti-theft system, but strangely enough the starter cut relay actually had the jumper plug on it (no relay). Looks like this was done when PO did the original engine swap.

So like I said, the only thing getting voltage from the "S" position would be the starter solenoid itself...

Wouldn't a 40A relay work? Thats readily available... and that solenoid cant be pulling that much current... I'm more than willing to do that if I have to, but the main thing is if the ignition switch is actually built to handle to load for 20 years, I'd rather not add the wiring and spend the 30 minutes to get one and wire it up.

AGreen

iTrader: (11)

A 40A would probably work just fine. I really don't have much idea how much current it draws, but I'm sure you can get a bigger one if that burns out eventually.

You really can't argue that the ignition switch was designed to handle it for 20 years. After seeing the damage that gets done to everyone's window switches over time, it's pretty apparent that some things weren't designed with longevity in mind.

I was able to find a relay and harness at Pep Boy's for $10. I rocked spade lugs on my window relays for the past couple years, but I finally got around to finding a decent harness connector for those relays from them. The plus side is that the relay comes with a mounting tab. So that way, I can mount it farther forward in the door, out of the way of water. They're also mounted upright, so any water that does hit it won't get trapped in the body of the relay, thus shorting it out and blowing the fuse when it rains.

MIDNFauciUSN

iTrader: (8)

EDIT #1: BTW, I did actually go and buy the relay... it was a 30A, but I decided not to use it because of the beefy wire in the switch.
EDIT #2: I pulled apart my old ignition switch... pretty toasty... definitely the original.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___

Well, I finished putting the new ignition switch in... with the exception of the starter solenoid wire. I decided to cut the connector off of the front harness and solder it to some 10ga wire. I then ran it through the firewall and its hanging over the fender right now. Had to deal with some other mystery wires that I traced all the way to the driver's rear quarter. Apparently I have a keyless entry system - just sans remote control. I have no door handles, so its possible that the PO just installed it to control my door popping solenoid.

Anyway, the wiring both coming into and out of the ignition switch is also pretty beefy 10ga copper. I did what I did above with the intent to cut the starter solenoid's connection off of the front harness and solder it to 10ga wire... so just one purpose for that circuit - start the car.

I didn't see any relays for it in the FSM wiring guide, so I'm going to keep it that way (please correct me if I'm wrong). With as much as I start/run the car... I'm sure it will last longer than I own the car.

While I'm on that subject, I put the car on eBay starting at 250 dollars, reserve of 12K and Buy it Now for 14K. The bidding was up past 10K, almost to 11K, and I decided that I just couldn't do it. I'm an FC guy. There's something about these cars...

5 days until SevenStock!

MIDNFauciUSN

iTrader: (8)

So I went ahead and wired this straight to the starter.

STARTS EVERY TIME.

Unfortunately, the starter doesn't disengage when the engine starts, so I get the same grinding noise as you would if you tried to start the car when it was already running... EVERY TIME I START THE ENGINE.

Was there something in the starting circuit that I'm missing here? Or is this starter just "F"ed in the "A" ???

satch

iTrader: (1)

The starter solenoid should only be receiving voltage w/key to start, if it continues to receive voltage w/key to on then you are using the wrong wire to the solenoid or the ignition switch is problematic.

MIDNFauciUSN

iTrader: (8)

Nah... thats not it...

Like when you normally start your car, you can hear it start... and allow the key to retun to ON.

This one... basically when the engine starts, the starter gets so loud that THAT specific noise tells me that the engine has started...

Someone else that bought a reman starter just told me he had the same issue, and that it went away after about a week... like the starter needs a break in. Kinda like the gear doesn't retract quickly enough or something?

AGreen

iTrader: (11)

Sounds like you have a no-kidding "sticky starter".

I haven't had much good luck with auto parts stores' starters. I borrowed Raksj04's starter,which was an original Mazda starter. Worked perfectly every time, cranked nice and fast, generally worked quite well. I got a reman starter from one of the parts stores and it cranks slower, doesn't crank every time, and is pretty much garbage. I think I'd be better off getting an original starter and replacing the brushes and bushings myself (with Mazda OEM parts).

MIDNFauciUSN

iTrader: (8)

I want to pull the starter off tomorrow and throw some bearing grease on the drive gear... Or bendix or whatever the hell that thing is called... And see what happens. It spins fine. Just hangs on after the engine starts. In the case of a properly functioning unit, does the engine speed "throw" the gear back off of the flywheel after starting?

AGreen

iTrader: (11)

You should probably lubricate it with a dry lubricant, like graphite lube. That will prevent it from getting gummy in the future.

From what I can remember, the FC starter doesn't kick itself back. That style doesn't usually have a solenoid on it. The ones that do that have worm gears that push themselves out when the starter motor starts to spin. Then, once power is no longer applied to it and the engine is running, the flywheel overruns the starter gear, causing the drive gear to spin away from the flywheel teeth, riding the worm gear down to a resting position again. I may be completely out to lunch on the FC not having that feature, but when I disassembled the last one, I didn't see anything of the like. Just in/out motion by a spring-return solenoid.

AGreen

iTrader: (11)

Maybe you could remove the (+) battery cable from the starter and try cranking it over a few times. That should exercise the solenoid a few times, and either confirm or reject your suspicions based on how long the solenoid takes to return to rest (click noise after releasing the key).


Here's something interesting:

http://www.rotaryheads.com/PDF/2nd_g...cal_system.pdf

Page 5-26. There's an overrun clutch on this starter. I assume it's for that BRIEF moment when the engine takes over and the starter is still engaged. If that thing is seized up, that may be the culprit to your weird noise.

MIDNFauciUSN

iTrader: (8)

Kathy Atkins wants to bring me one down when we meet at sevenstock...As of right now, I'm gonna give the starter a chance in the morning, then if its doing the same ****, I'm just going to take it back to O'Reillys so they can get me another one overnighted.

My problem is that its going to pass their bench test, and they aren't going to want to do anything about it. Maybe I'll record a video of it and take it in. I guess if they dont want to exchange it, I can just get a refund right?

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

yep, its a one way clutch, so the engine can spin faster than the starter.

i'd suggest not pulling that apart, my friend did once, and it became a two way clutch, so the starter would just push the gear out and spin, made a cool noise, but most people would rather have the car start.

MIDNFauciUSN

iTrader: (8)

They ordered me another one. Gets here in the morning.

MIDNFauciUSN

iTrader: (8)

I picked up the 2nd one a few minutes ago... And I could instantly tell a difference. The drive gear on the starter turns both directions by hand... The 1st one didn't.

MIDNFauciUSN

iTrader: (8)

So there was another difference. This reman wasn't made in Mexico... SCORE ONE FOR THE 'MURICANS!

Success.