evanb

I set my initial crank angle sensor timing by lining up the dot and line on its shaft and installing it w/ the "yellow" timing mark on the e-shaft pulley under the pin on the case. Here's a picture of the CAS's internals when installed this way. (The marks are visible on the crank pulley just below and to the left of the "BANDO RAF" logo on the alternator belt.) The engine starts and runs fine with this static setting, but when I check the timing with a timing light it is WAY off, with the marks on the pulley a good 4cm (advanced, I think) behind the pin.

In order to adjust the timing so the marks line up as per the service manual I have to advance the CAS one tooth, and in that position the engine barely idles, and is so sluggish to rev when I open the throttle I doubt it's drivable. When the timing light shows timing is correct the point on the top actuator points at the center of the pickup on the left instead of being offset as in the picture.

I've gone back to the static setting, but I am completely clueless as to how the timing can be right by the timing light and yet so far off.

Additional data points: This is a newly-rebuilt J-spec S5 turbo engine connected to an N370 ECU with a modified S5 N/A engine harness. I tested the timing with the test connector grounded and the idle speed around 800 RPM.

I'd appreciate it if anyone can tell me what is wrong.

Thanks.

-Evan

HAILERS

The engine needs to be fully warmed up.

evanb

Well, yeah. I kinda took that as going without saying. My mistake

The engine was fully warmed up while I was checking and adjusting timing.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Did you set the initial set coupler?

ziig

iTrader: (1)

set the what?

HAILERS

It sounds like you have that green. one socket connector grounded anyway/alreaady.

The only explanation I have, is that somehow the marks on the pulley are off. I'd reinstall the CAS where the upper two pointers are just inside of the black/square looking reluctor.

Since the pulley only goes on one way, what with the four mounting holes being an offset pattern.....it's anybodys guess why the marks would be off.

Somehow you need to find TDC and then measure five and twenty degrees from TDC to get the timing right. Iwrote on someones thread about how to find TDC or rather my ideas on how to do so combined with others ideas. Maybe search the name HAILERS and TDC or HAILERS and timing or?????

There is a method on the bottom of the thread I'm going to attach to this thread. It's where you remove the rear rotors two sparkplugs and with mirror and flashlight, look for the apex seal to pass thru the hole and make marks. I"ll post it in a moment. Remember, the TDC is at the bottom of the attachment.

http://www.teamfc3s.org/info/articles/demystifying.html I consider this method a small ball park figure. You can get pretty close. It never satisfied my quest for TDC.

Also, if you draw a straight line thru two of the bolts that hold the pulley on and make that line intersect the fixed pin on the front cover, that is very close to TDC. Which two????? Well when the pulley marks on your pulley are near the fixed pointer, then look at the bolt pattern on the pulley and pick out the two bolts that are MOST in alignment . I'd think those are the two you'd draw a straight line thru to the pointer.

evanb

Yes, I did have the test connector grounded.
The above thread describes the poster's encounter with the same problem I seem to have: the timing marks are incorrect. The odd thing in my case is, static timing set using the marks appears to pretty close. It's only the timing light that shows things being wrong.
If you haven't already, take a look at this picture that shows the CAS after I installed it by lining up the leading timing mark on the e-shaft pulley and the two marks on the CAS body. Is this the position you're describing above?

HAILERS

Yes. And with the engine idling around 7-800 rpm it should look like that also. I mean, if I take my cas out, put the pulley opposite the first mark on the pulley, then install the cas just as you have it shown in your pictue, the timing will be real close. As within five degrees.

Seems from the picture it's installed right. When you start the engine and it's fully warmed up and you put a light on the CAS, the two ended pointer should be just the same as it is i the picture and the mark on the pulley should be where it's shown in your picture.

IF it does not run for flip as described, I've no idea what is wrong and the first thing that comes to mind is the pulley marks being off. It could be something else. What? Got me right now.

I'll re-read you post again. By the way, when you move things around and the engine runs good, which way do the marks on the pulley move? towards the right or left fender?

HAILERS

Let's say your idling the car fully warmed up and the idle speed well under 900rpm.

If you turn the cas clockwise does it sound better or when you turn it anti clockwise does it sound better?

evanb

The marks are already well behind the pin (if the pin is at two o'clock the yellow mark is at about 12 o'clock). Turning the CAS anti-clockwise moves the marks closer to the pin and makes the engine run worse.

In order to get the marks under the pin I actually have to pull the CAS partway out and jump the shaft one drive tooth anti-clockwise to get enough adjustment. It is in this position that the engine runs badly.

I am planning to do a check of the first rotor's TDC this weekend to see if the timing marks are wrong. Based on the link you gave me I expect this will be the problem.

Smoken'

iTrader: (1)

Is this a fresh rebuild? The reason why i ask is i have always wondered if it throws your cas position off if you put the drive gear on backwards, meaning the chamferd edge facing the front of the engine instead of the rear of the motor. Does anybody have an answer for this?

evanb

It is. I'm curious to hear the answer, too.

evanb

I had a big list member suggest that the S4 and S5 e-shaft pulleys may be different. Does that ring any bells with anyone? It is possible that my S5 engine may not have an S5 pulley. I'm going to look at the old engine's part this evening, or at least by this weekend.

HAILERS

I've asked that question on this fourm in one way or the other in the past.

I rebuilt the 86 non turbo a few years ago, which rins like a top. But no matter how I installed the CAS, the only way I could get the timing light to hit hte LEAD mark, was to restab the cas and have it rotated FULL clockwise. In fact so far that I had to grind the left part of the slot in the cas to give me some wiggle room. I've always wondered if I put that drive gear in right or not i.e. the champfer facing aft.

Also on the OTHER fourm (the one that calls this the EVIL FORUM) there is a post I was involved in that several reputable people claimed the pulleys are marked individually for each pulley set. THEY claim that, not I. I'm agnostic on that.

ONE THING I KNOW. If you have a first gen CARB pulley, and install it with the three of four bolts that match a series four pulley, the first mark on it IS TDC on any series four engine. Been there and proven it without a doubt (in my head anyway).

First gen carb mark is AT TDC. Note the word CARB.

Smoken'

iTrader: (1)

I know this for a fact, i experimented around one day and grabbed a couple of pulleys and put them on the same hub. I was very surprised by the results. I found that the timing marks varrried as much as 15 deg between 4 pulleys. The answer i got from Bruce Turrentine is that the hub and pulleys should only be used as a set, and that the shouldn't be miss matched. I might also add that all of the pulleys that i tested where off of s4's.

HAILERS

********* rins like a top**********should be RUNS LIKE A TOP

*********was to restab the cas and have it rotated FULL clockwise*******should be FULL anti clockwise.

And there's no way I'm going to pull the front cover off to just look at the way I installed that drive gear.

http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread...hlight=hailers

HAILERS

&&&&&&&I am planning to do a check of the first rotor's TDC this weekend to see if the timing marks are wrong. Based on the link you gave me I expect this will be the problem.******

About that link. Remember somewhere above I said that was a good way to find the ballpark??? Words of that nature. I said that for a reason.

That link implys that the mid distance b/t the sparkplug holes is TDC. Ain't so on a series four car. Series five? I know they moved a sparkplug hole but I know not which direction.

I've attached a jpg of a rotor housing with two brazing rods stuck thru the sparkplug holes and made a red mark at where TDC is on the rotor housing. You can see the distance b/t holes isn't the same.

BUT, what I found out is the links method can/will work pretty darn good, IF you make an alteration to his method. He has you get the aprx seal in the MIDDLE of the TRAIL hole. That part is good. Then you turn the eccentric shaft til the apex seal is in the LEAD hold. But instead of in the middle of the hole, keep it travling thru the hole and have the apex seal rest in the very bottom of the sparkplug hole. Not just a hint of it showing but the whole apex seal but the bottom of the apex seal at the bottom of the hole.
'
Well I played around using masking tape on the pulley and using a 12" flexible scale to measure b/t points using the alternate method above. I made a mark for TDC on the pulley and guess what. It was 0.200 from the factory Lead mark. That means the factory LEAD mark is where it should be. The Lead mark should be five degrees from TDC which translates into 0.195" (A pulley of 4.5" diameter).

I installed another series four pulley and had the same results.

FYI. Both my pulleys measure 4.515 " in diameter. Series four engines.

FYI. I know the marks from the first gen pulleys are different. I own a couple of those pulleys.

FYI. Some rebuilders are clueless about interchangability of parts. Ask J-RAT who bought a engine that had two front rotor housings on it. Or was it two rear rotor housings. There are supptle differences b/t front and rear housings involving airpump air routes and EGR routing.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Jesus! You still remember that ****!?!?! that was like 5 years ago!!

HAILERS

Time flys........and according to your time slips, so does your car.

This ends my input on this thread. Done.

hIGGI

iTrader: (7)

Yes, thats true. I played with few sets of pulleys and hubs as well to find same. I had RB one piece underdrive pulley on the hand as well, to be able put the sets together correctly.