O2 sensor voltage at idle?
12-04-09, 01:46 AM
#1
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O2 sensor voltage at idle?
I am reading -0.05 V from my O2 sensor at idle on my S5 NA. The voltage does spike to 0.8 V briefly if I open the throttle a bit.
I am attempting to troubleshoot a failed emissions test with the following results:
<table border="1" bordercolor="" width="" bgcolor=""><tr><td> Speed </td><td> RPM </td><td> CO2 [%] </td><td> O2 [%] </td><td> HC [ppm] </td><td> CO [%] </td><td> NO [ppm] </td></tr><tr><td> 15 MPH </td><td> 1851 </td><td> 14.2 </td><td> 0.7 </td><td> 210 </td><td> 0.23 </td><td> 546 </td></tr><tr><td> 25 MPH </td><td> 2074 </td><td> 14.3 </td><td> 0.6 </td><td> 91 </td><td> 0.18 </td><td> 433 </td></tr></table>
This raises 2 questions:
1) Everything in my car seems to have a -0.05 V offset from the battery ground. Is this within tolerance?
2) Should my O2 sensor be reading somewhere within the 0.1-0.8 V range at idle?
It was conjectured to me that my high HC numbers are due to lean misfire. Timing is 7deg BDTC. All smog equipment is in place, although a RB header is installed, so the O2 sensor is not in the stock location.
I believe air injection is working, although I have a "soft" code 31 (check engine light not active, but code shows when checked).
I am attempting to troubleshoot a failed emissions test with the following results:
<table border="1" bordercolor="" width="" bgcolor=""><tr><td> Speed </td><td> RPM </td><td> CO2 [%] </td><td> O2 [%] </td><td> HC [ppm] </td><td> CO [%] </td><td> NO [ppm] </td></tr><tr><td> 15 MPH </td><td> 1851 </td><td> 14.2 </td><td> 0.7 </td><td> 210 </td><td> 0.23 </td><td> 546 </td></tr><tr><td> 25 MPH </td><td> 2074 </td><td> 14.3 </td><td> 0.6 </td><td> 91 </td><td> 0.18 </td><td> 433 </td></tr></table>
This raises 2 questions:
1) Everything in my car seems to have a -0.05 V offset from the battery ground. Is this within tolerance?
2) Should my O2 sensor be reading somewhere within the 0.1-0.8 V range at idle?
It was conjectured to me that my high HC numbers are due to lean misfire. Timing is 7deg BDTC. All smog equipment is in place, although a RB header is installed, so the O2 sensor is not in the stock location.
I believe air injection is working, although I have a "soft" code 31 (check engine light not active, but code shows when checked).
12-04-09, 04:16 AM
#2
1) that voltage difference seems to be ok, but I will have to look through my books to verify, maybe another forum member can answer. It doesn't seem like a big difference.
2) yes, your O2 sensor should be reading between .1-.8v anytime the engine is running. .8=rich .1=lean .45=stoich.
I know last time I went through my whole rx7+narrowband+multimeter ordeal, I found it it does idle a bit on the rich side.
Code 31 - Solenoid Relief Valve - Should be one of those valves located on the drivers side next to the oil dipstick/filler. I can't tell you which one it is, but alot of those solenoids control emissions equipment. Looks like that particular one isn't working properly. If it isn't, your vacuum system isn't getting routed properly for emissions.
High HC numbers - You have alot of unburned fuel in the exhaust.... What is the condition of your catalytic converter? Did you go with a high flow cat with the RB header? Are your fuel injectors leaking/dirty? When was the last time you had them clean and flowed? What is the condition of your spark plugs, new, old? How is the compressions on the engine? Do you have the hose going to the cat from the engine to supply air?
Get the FSM, look through the emissions section, go through the trouble shooting procedure for the solenoids, you will find the one that is bad. It just involves powering them with 12, blowing through the ports/listening for click of solenoid. Make sure all the emissions equipment is also hooked up, just inspect the hoses while you check that solenoid.
Timing - Should be set to 5* ATDC, checked on the leading coil. Seems like your timing is way too advanced!!!
Hope this helps you out.
2) yes, your O2 sensor should be reading between .1-.8v anytime the engine is running. .8=rich .1=lean .45=stoich.
I know last time I went through my whole rx7+narrowband+multimeter ordeal, I found it it does idle a bit on the rich side.
Code 31 - Solenoid Relief Valve - Should be one of those valves located on the drivers side next to the oil dipstick/filler. I can't tell you which one it is, but alot of those solenoids control emissions equipment. Looks like that particular one isn't working properly. If it isn't, your vacuum system isn't getting routed properly for emissions.
High HC numbers - You have alot of unburned fuel in the exhaust.... What is the condition of your catalytic converter? Did you go with a high flow cat with the RB header? Are your fuel injectors leaking/dirty? When was the last time you had them clean and flowed? What is the condition of your spark plugs, new, old? How is the compressions on the engine? Do you have the hose going to the cat from the engine to supply air?
Get the FSM, look through the emissions section, go through the trouble shooting procedure for the solenoids, you will find the one that is bad. It just involves powering them with 12, blowing through the ports/listening for click of solenoid. Make sure all the emissions equipment is also hooked up, just inspect the hoses while you check that solenoid.
Timing - Should be set to 5* ATDC, checked on the leading coil. Seems like your timing is way too advanced!!!
Hope this helps you out.
12-04-09, 08:14 AM
#3
Follow the FSM checking procedure for code 31. If the relief solenoid is causing the ACV to always vent air pump air, no air will be going to the cat.
Some here have used a hose from the air pump to the split air pipe directly to always send air to the cat.
Your chart didn't show limits, which would help show how far you're off.
Also, the FSM shows a few pages of emission checking procedure (at least in the S4 FSM). It's a bit of work, but maybe worth it.
If the cat is old and clogged and not doing it anymore, you may want to replace it with a high-flow.
Lastly, the chart shows the car off-idle. I'd be interested in the O2 readings at that point, not idle. The ECU doesn't use the O2 sensor at idle, AFAIK, and you can adjust the idle mixture using the rich/lean screw variable resistor near pass. shock tower.
Another lastly, get the proper NGK spark plugs. What brand did he get (even if he said they're brand new)?
Some here have used a hose from the air pump to the split air pipe directly to always send air to the cat.
Your chart didn't show limits, which would help show how far you're off.
Also, the FSM shows a few pages of emission checking procedure (at least in the S4 FSM). It's a bit of work, but maybe worth it.
If the cat is old and clogged and not doing it anymore, you may want to replace it with a high-flow.
Lastly, the chart shows the car off-idle. I'd be interested in the O2 readings at that point, not idle. The ECU doesn't use the O2 sensor at idle, AFAIK, and you can adjust the idle mixture using the rich/lean screw variable resistor near pass. shock tower.
Another lastly, get the proper NGK spark plugs. What brand did he get (even if he said they're brand new)?
12-04-09, 09:12 AM
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Same answer from me as the post above. The RELIEF solenoid is the solenoid that should be energized at idle and causing the airpump air to go to the EXHAUST PORTS on the engine (last time I looked they are located PRIOR to the 02 sensor and converter).
Split air does little to nothing at idle. That's the pipe that feeds air directly to the main converter.
Your readings at idle confuse me a bit IF indeed the relief solenoid is not energized and dumping airpump air into the right front fenders silencer. Because if air IS going to the PORT air ports, then I'd expect the 02 sensor to read the very low readings your getting at idle i.e. .05vdc.
Do this. Fully warm up the engine and idle it. Read the 02 sensor voltage. Now get out of the car and pull the BLUE plug off the Relief solenoid. Now go look at your 02 reading again. It SHOULD now be in the .5 to .8vdc. If so, then that PROVES that airpump air IS/was going where it's supposed to be going at IDLE.
The proper adjustment of the TPS is what results in the Relief and Switching solenoids to be rigged right for operation.
Your CO2 readings going down to 91 during the high speed test indicate that your engine seems to be going into closed loop at that speed. That's a good sign.
Split air does little to nothing at idle. That's the pipe that feeds air directly to the main converter.
Your readings at idle confuse me a bit IF indeed the relief solenoid is not energized and dumping airpump air into the right front fenders silencer. Because if air IS going to the PORT air ports, then I'd expect the 02 sensor to read the very low readings your getting at idle i.e. .05vdc.
Do this. Fully warm up the engine and idle it. Read the 02 sensor voltage. Now get out of the car and pull the BLUE plug off the Relief solenoid. Now go look at your 02 reading again. It SHOULD now be in the .5 to .8vdc. If so, then that PROVES that airpump air IS/was going where it's supposed to be going at IDLE.
The proper adjustment of the TPS is what results in the Relief and Switching solenoids to be rigged right for operation.
Your CO2 readings going down to 91 during the high speed test indicate that your engine seems to be going into closed loop at that speed. That's a good sign.
12-04-09, 10:15 AM
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In the thread owners first post, that NO which is NOx I assume, is very, very, very high. I usually see a figure like 14.4ppm on my cars. Although I have a n/a converted to E85 that I had running very lean when I got it tested last month, and the NOx was in the 100-200 range if memory serves which I think is caused by running real lean.
The allowable NOx in Tx runs in the 1200 to 1300 ppm range.
I run without a EGR on my series four and normally have real low NOx on those cars. EGR valve has pretty much no real effect on series four cars.
In TX HC allowable is in the 174 and 180 range for the two seeds respectivley. So if that is the range in your state, then you past high speed HC and failed low speed HC. I'd check that Relief solenoid out real good to see if it's functioning. or not.
The allowable NOx in Tx runs in the 1200 to 1300 ppm range.
I run without a EGR on my series four and normally have real low NOx on those cars. EGR valve has pretty much no real effect on series four cars.
In TX HC allowable is in the 174 and 180 range for the two seeds respectivley. So if that is the range in your state, then you past high speed HC and failed low speed HC. I'd check that Relief solenoid out real good to see if it's functioning. or not.
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12-04-09, 10:17 PM
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The converter is only 2 years old. I have a new one to replace it with already, just waiting for my welder to arrive.
The code 31 shows up when I connect the Self-Test connector to ground, but the Check Engine light is NOT illuminated otherwise. A mechanic told me that that's a "soft code", meaning something that happened in the past, and not a currently problem. But it persists, even when I reset the ECU; I haven't found a conclusive answer around here.
Does it mean anything special if a code shows up, even without the Check Engine light being illuminated while running normally?
The relief solenoid (blue connector) works on the bench, when applying power. Also the wiring harness appears to be in tact: one pin of the connector shows +12v with the ignition switched on, and the other pin shows continuity to the Relief Solenoid pin of the ECU.
I think my O2 sensor is actually reading 0 volts at idle; I think the -0.05 V is just the ground offset. If only I had a wideband....
I have another TPS waiting to go in. When I pull the throttle body to install it, I'll go through all of the other stuff... plate clearance, thermowax, water lines, etc.
If I end up tearing down the intake manifolds, I'll redo all the vacuum lines and take a look at the injectors.
Along the same lines, the S5 service manual seems to say nothing about the screw on the top of the throttle body?
Here's the complete table of my results:
<html> <div><!--table {mso-displayed-decimal-separator:"\."; mso-displayed-thousand-separator:"\,";}.xl1521705 {padding-top:1px; padding-right:1px; padding-left:1px; mso-ignore:padding; color:black; font-size:11.0pt; font-weight:400; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; font-family:Calibri, sans-serif; mso-font-charset:0; mso-number-format:General; text-align:general; vertical-align:bottom; mso-background-source:auto; mso-pattern:auto; white-space:nowrap;}.xl6321705 {padding-top:1px; padding-right:1px; padding-left:1px; mso-ignore:padding; color:black; font-size:11.0pt; font-weight:400; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; font-family:Calibri, sans-serif; mso-font-charset:0; mso-number-format:General; text-align:center; vertical-align:middle; mso-background-source:auto; mso-pattern:auto; white-space:nowrap;}.xl6421705 {padding-top:1px; padding-right:1px; padding-left:1px; mso-ignore:padding; color:black; font-size:11.0pt; font-weight:400; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; font-family:Calibri, sans-serif; mso-font-charset:0; mso-number-format:General; text-align:center; vertical-align:middle; border-top:none; border-right:.5pt solid windowtext; border-bottom:none; border-left:none; mso-background-source:auto; mso-pattern:auto; white-space:nowrap;}.xl6521705 {padding-top:1px; padding-right:1px; padding-left:1px; mso-ignore:padding; color:black; font-size:11.0pt; font-weight:700; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; font-family:Calibri, sans-serif; mso-font-charset:0; mso-number-format:General; text-align:center; vertical-align:middle; border-top:none; border-right:none; border-bottom:1.0pt solid windowtext; border-left:none; mso-background-source:auto; mso-pattern:auto; white-space:nowrap;}.xl6621705 {padding-top:1px; padding-right:1px; padding-left:1px; mso-ignore:padding; color:black; font-size:11.0pt; font-weight:400; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; font-family:Calibri, sans-serif; mso-font-charset:0; mso-number-format:General; text-align:center; vertical-align:middle; border-top:1.0pt solid windowtext; border-right:.5pt solid windowtext; border-bottom:none; border-left:none; mso-background-source:auto; mso-pattern:auto; white-space:nowrap;}--></style></head> <body><!--[if !excel]> <![endif]--><!--The following information was generated by Microsoft Office Excel's Publishas Web Page wizard.--><!--If the same item is republished from Excel, all information between the DIVtags will be replaced.--><!-----------------------------><!--START OF OUTPUT FROM EXCEL PUBLISH AS WEB PAGE WIZARD --><!-----------------------------> <div id="Book1_21705" align=center x:publishsource="Excel"> <table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width=896 style='border-collapse: collapse;table-layout:fixed;width:672pt'> <col width=64 span=14 style='width:48pt'> <tr height=20 style='height:15.0pt'> <td height=20 class=xl6321705 width=64 style='height:15.0pt;width:48pt'></td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'>CO2 [%]</td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'>O2 [%]</td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'>HC [ppm]</td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'>HC [ppm]</td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'>HC [ppm]</td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'>CO [%]</td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'>CO [%]</td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'>CO [%]</td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'>NO [ppm]</td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'>NO [ppm]</td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'>NO [ppm]</td> <td class=xl6321705 width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> </tr> <tr height=21 style='height:15.75pt'> <td height=21 class=xl6321705 style='height:15.75pt'></td> <td class=xl6521705>RPM</td> <td class=xl6521705>MEAS</td> <td class=xl6521705>MEAS</td> <td class=xl6521705>MAX</td> <td class=xl6521705>AVG</td> <td class=xl6521705>MEAS</td> <td class=xl6521705>MAX</td> <td class=xl6521705>AVG</td> <td class=xl6521705>MEAS</td> <td class=xl6521705>MAX</td> <td class=xl6521705>AVG</td> <td class=xl6521705>MEAS</td> <td class=xl6321705>Results</td> </tr> <tr height=20 style='height:15.0pt'> <td height=20 class=xl6421705 style='height:15.0pt'>15 mph</td> <td class=xl6321705>1851</td> <td class=xl6321705>14.2</td> <td class=xl6321705>0.7</td> <td class=xl6321705>116</td> <td class=xl6321705>31</td> <td class=xl6321705>210</td> <td class=xl6321705>0.74</td> <td class=xl6321705>0.1</td> <td class=xl6321705>0.23</td> <td class=xl6321705>791</td> <td class=xl6321705>237</td> <td class=xl6621705 style='border-top:none'>546</td> <td class=xl6321705>FAIL</td> </tr> <tr height=20 style='height:15.0pt'> <td height=20 class=xl6421705 style='height:15.0pt'>25 mph</td> <td class=xl6321705>2074</td> <td class=xl6321705>14.3</td> <td class=xl6321705>0.6</td> <td class=xl6321705>91</td> <td class=xl6321705>20</td> <td class=xl6321705>91</td> <td class=xl6321705>0.62</td> <td class=xl6321705>0.09</td> <td class=xl6321705>0.18</td> <td class=xl6321705>730</td> <td class=xl6321705>199</td> <td class=xl6421705>433</td> <td class=xl6321705>PASS</td> </tr> <![if supportMisalignedColumns]> <tr height=0 style='display:none'> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> <td width=64 style='width:48pt'></td> </tr> <![endif]></table> </div>
The code 31 shows up when I connect the Self-Test connector to ground, but the Check Engine light is NOT illuminated otherwise. A mechanic told me that that's a "soft code", meaning something that happened in the past, and not a currently problem. But it persists, even when I reset the ECU; I haven't found a conclusive answer around here.
Does it mean anything special if a code shows up, even without the Check Engine light being illuminated while running normally?
The relief solenoid (blue connector) works on the bench, when applying power. Also the wiring harness appears to be in tact: one pin of the connector shows +12v with the ignition switched on, and the other pin shows continuity to the Relief Solenoid pin of the ECU.
I think my O2 sensor is actually reading 0 volts at idle; I think the -0.05 V is just the ground offset. If only I had a wideband....
I have another TPS waiting to go in. When I pull the throttle body to install it, I'll go through all of the other stuff... plate clearance, thermowax, water lines, etc.
If I end up tearing down the intake manifolds, I'll redo all the vacuum lines and take a look at the injectors.
Along the same lines, the S5 service manual seems to say nothing about the screw on the top of the throttle body?
Here's the complete table of my results:
<html> <div><!--table {mso-displayed-decimal-separator:"\."; mso-displayed-thousand-separator:"\,";}.xl1521705 {padding-top:1px; padding-right:1px; padding-left:1px; mso-ignore:padding; color:black; font-size:11.0pt; font-weight:400; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; font-family:Calibri, sans-serif; mso-font-charset:0; mso-number-format:General; text-align:general; vertical-align:bottom; mso-background-source:auto; mso-pattern:auto; white-space:nowrap;}.xl6321705 {padding-top:1px; padding-right:1px; padding-left:1px; mso-ignore:padding; color:black; font-size:11.0pt; font-weight:400; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; font-family:Calibri, sans-serif; mso-font-charset:0; mso-number-format:General; text-align:center; vertical-align:middle; mso-background-source:auto; mso-pattern:auto; white-space:nowrap;}.xl6421705 {padding-top:1px; padding-right:1px; padding-left:1px; mso-ignore:padding; color:black; font-size:11.0pt; font-weight:400; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; 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12-05-09, 01:02 PM
#9
The s5 FSM (non turbo fuel and emissions controls section) isn't very specific about what the stock O2 sensor should read at idle. It just says "under 1 volt" which tells us nothing.
Here is the troubleshooting index for the secondary air injection system.
Did you actually follow the relief solenoid diagnostic procedure?
Here is the troubleshooting index for the secondary air injection system.
Did you actually follow the relief solenoid diagnostic procedure?
12-05-09, 04:16 PM
#10
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
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And, just in case, it matters not what the 02 sensor reads at idle. It only has an effect when over approx 1500rpm and actually driving the car down the street. Then it matters.
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24seven_dada
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