Samps

I have searched all over this site and many others and everyone seems to have a different answer, but none of them appear to work correctly. I have the RB header and presilencer, and I want to throw out the air pump. Now I know that the precilencer will give me enough pressure to open the ports but what about the VDI? How do we make it work? And what block off plates do you need to complete the job? Making the ports work seems to be the easy part of the job, just run the split air hose to the actuaters and maybe bleed off some pressure, but the VDI is kind of a mystery to me. I'm guessing I would need to run a hose off the split air pipe to the VDI, but where would I connect the hose to? So right now I am thinking a hose from the split air pipe that splits into two hoses; one for the VDI and one for the port actuators. And last of all what is the deal with the ACV blcok off plate? Why does the ACV get removed? I know this has been asked a million times, but it has never been answered correctly yet, and most everyone is still farting around with it. If we could just all put our info on one thread, this question would go away for good; or at least the answer would be in the archives and could be referenced in the future.

rotorhead1

if i am incorrect on this, let me know. arent the port actuators Part of the vdi system? if that is the case, only one hose would be needed, the air hose to power the vdi system. vaccum would then be generated by the vdi to actuate the 5th and 6th ports. just guessing on this. the other poption would be to take all your intake off and pull those little suckers out of the engine all together.

Ryde _Or_Die

Damn...I don't know what half the stuff you spoke of is even. So if you get the headers/presilencer setup & keep your airpump will the 5th & 6th ports still open properly? Thats all I want to know. And if you need to do any mods to make it work right, what are they? Thanks.

rotorhead1

i have a rb header and presilencer, and they were just a bolt on mod. it did not affect in any way how and what the air pump operates. just bolt em in and enjoy.

SpeedRacer

Well first off, the air in the SAP that normally goes to the main cat is supplied by the airpump. So if you remove your airpump, then no air will be in the split air pipe.

The ACV(air control valve) does just that, it controls air. It sends air to the SAP, and also directly to your exhaust manifold. If you take off your airpump, then their is no air to be supplied to the SAP and exhaust manifold. So thats why people take the ACV off, cause it is only needed for emissions, and once the airpump is removed, its useless.

You didn't mention the year of your car, but it has to be an 89-91 I guess cause you were mentioning the VDI manifold. In that case, the 6-ports on your car opened up based on air pressure supplied from the airpump. Once the airpump and ACV have been removed, your 6-ports will not open. You can wire them open, like many of us. The VDI opens the same way, the airpump supplies the air pressure. Both the VDI and 6-ports have a solenoid that activates at the correct RPMS that allows the air to flow(to open the 6-ports and VDI). If you want your 6-ports and VDI to open after removing your airpump and ACV, you will have to do some fabricating. You could drill a hole in your exhaust and tap into exhaust pressure and have an RPM activated switch control a solenoid to open the 6-ports and VDI. There are other ways as well, just ask around and search the web..I don't have the bookmarks I used to, to give you links to sites.

Ryde _Or_Die

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rotorhead1
[B]i have a rb header and presilencer, and they were just a bolt on mod. it did not affect in any way how and what the air pump operates. just bolt em in and enjoy.


What year is your 7? Did you lose any low end? Thanks.

dre_2ooo

www.fc3s.org
has some good info on ELECTRONIC operation of the 6-ports....

mine are working fine though...

rotorhead1

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ryde _Or_Die
[B]mine is a 91. i did loose some lowend torque, but i have someother mods that helped that along. when it opens up at 3500 rpm or so it is really a deamon now.

Ryde _Or_Die

See the problem is that all the people that are answering with "don't worry about it" & "they'll work fine" have 89+ N/A's. What if you have an 86-88? I want to make sure the 5th & 6th ports work correctly. Thanks.

SpeedRacer

Ok, some exhausts for 86-88 RX-7's are specifically designed to work in conjunction with the 6-ports. Call around, find out what systems will allow your 6-ports to still open. If you don't know, then you are taking a small risk...if the new exhaust you get doesn't allow your 6-ports to open, you can either wire them open, remove the sleeves, or do some research on the internet to find another way to open your 6-ports. Its not that big of deal. My 6-ports(and VDI for you 89-91 ownders)are wired open, and my car runs, and idles fine. It has a little less low-end torque, but the high-end kicks ***.

rxspeed87

I have an 87 sport with a RB header and presilencer
the 6 ports are working just fine right now.

finky

iTrader: (2)

ok I wired open my 6 ports and the car actually was slower in the 1/4 and 0-60. and the topend was worse. So I just closed them again. Has anyone else had THIS problem? I am doing a rebuild soon so I am going to take them out and that will be the end of it.

add removed primary butterflies and KYBs to my sig

SpeedRacer

If you wired open your 6-ports and your top-end was worse, then you probably didn't really wire open your 6-ports. Maybe they were stuck open, and you closed them? I can't think of any other reason why you would be losing top-end with them wired open. On 89-91's the rod extends, which opens the 6-ports. On 86-88's the rod retracts, opening the 6-ports. Hope this helps.

Sniper_X

1.5lbs of PRESSURE is used to open the 5th and 6th ports.
Not vaccuum.

If given my choice I would go the electronic route to open these ports.

Using a RPm actuated switch, a servo could open the ports.
Heck, it could even open them proportianally to the RPM so you wouldnt get the POP of power when they open all at once.

HAILERS

Sniper posted this on another post http://www.fc3s.org/6-ports.html and I put this on another post http://home.earthlink.net/~burntoast/6port.html and I'd like to say that if you call Racing Beat or Mazdatrix and tell them your concerns, I'm betting money they will tell you that their headers come with a pipe coming off the front rotor header that is used for the actuation of the aux actuators. Mine came that way about three years ago, but from reading the post here I must have the only one with this setup. Does a single person out there have the headers with the pipe coming off the header that is used for actuation of the ports?

Ryde _Or_Die

Anyone? O well Ima pay the long distance & call racing beat & find out.

RobH

Grrrrr...There is so much hearsay and misinformation out there on the "auxiliary" ports it is disgusting. I am asking all of you, if you know not of what we speak, then dont reply! All these posts of "just tie them open, I did and now my top end kicks ***!" are pointless.

A. There is no HP gain involved with the 6 ports. I assume that your car has at least 146/160 HP from the factory. That is peak HP at the stated RPM's. If you have working auxiliary ports, than your average HP is equal to when it came from the factory, less the losses from compression loss. So if someone claims that zip tying the ports gains HP, it doesnt. You have no more than when you started. Actually, if you "tie" them open, you just LOST avg HP over the RPM range. Yes, if you drop the clutch at 5k everytime this is fine. If you drive like a normal human being at some point in time, working 6 ports are an ADVANTAGE to both driveability and performance. Any HP you gain from the 6 ports was not gained [unless you go into the flow of the port, and smoothing it]. This is why performance shops will tell you to get the car up to "stock" performance before "modding". So basically, anyone claiming a HP increase by "tieing" is mis informed.


B. Dont believe everything you hear. Manufacturers may make an attempt at solving a problem, i.e. adding a small nipple on their "backpressure sensing tube" but it MAY not work correctly with your car.

Your 6 ports have at least 10 years of road dust, oil, carbon...etc on them, and dont operate as smoothly as they did when new[Ive seem them after 13 years of use, and carbon was everywhere!]. Remember, the actuator is only part of the system...Inside the Lower intake manifold and end housings lie two cylindrical ports that rotate-These are what get stuck, along with the actuators. The actuators require no lubircation [if used regularly] and should not lock up. If the port cannot open, then yes, the actuator will freeze also.

To determine what PSI is needed to open them, get some vaccum tubing and a pressure gauge. Blow, and see where it reads when they open. Dont go by Joe Blows recommendation from windy city, OH. Then hook that same gauge upto your exhaust of choice, run it into the cabin, and monitor it under real conditions. Compare, and voila, we can determine if the ports will open at the desired RPM by PSI.

C. People forget to mention which Generation they have when asking auxiliary port questions. Then someone says something relevant to only 86-88, the car is question was an 89, and the already confused person is now really confused, some more hearsay is transferred, and we get yet ANOTHER thread on the aux ports. If you dont have that gen car, then dont reply, and if you dont know, dont post some "theorys" on how they might work.

This may seem a little harsh, but after performing a full 6 port cleaning [at age 15!], designing a system to operate my 6 ports independently of the car, and answering alot of these posts, I am sick of the auxiliary ports.

Im am very familiar with the whole setup of the 86-88 cars, and can answer virutally any question in regard to them. I have never even seen an 89 engine bay, so I cannot speak for those years.

Personally my current setup is not ideal. I have tied the ports open, with an avg Hp loss [one port stuck in its bore, would not open by air pressure...]. Right now, I am not in the mood for tearing the car apart, waiting for gaskets, etc...I can live with the loss of low end HP and torque because It is not THAT Important to me right now. I have the Electronic system still in place, and it was working like a charm. I also have the RB presilencer and downpipe on my car, and I removed the ACV and airpump. One of these weekends I will remedy this, and get back to stock HP levels ;-)

Ok, whew. Anyone have any questions on the 6 ports?

Ryde _Or_Die

I had some questions about the 5th & 6th ports opening with headers being on but I answered those from Mazdatrix. They said that it took 2PSi of back pressure to open them. And they found that with the headers/presilencer setup that there is enough back pressure to open them. So it seems I have found my answer. I have a question though...if I do the ATF trick, that will help them open easier, correct? I am pretty sure it will, just making sure. Thanks.

Sniper_X

I know precisely of what I speak.
I am a stickler for tecnicality and my statement of 1.5lbs to open them is the factory reccomended minimum test pressre used to open the ports.

I am ALWAYS assuming that your part is "working" and clean (resonable) when I mention how it "SHOULD" work.

I refuse to get mired down in thisngs like "yea, but how would it act after 100k miles?!"

My answer would be:

"Differently than it should..."

Each car I have has been cleaned within an inch of its life and has had the ATF trick (modified for better results) to restore as much compression as possible.

Note that in all my posts you wont see me mention the specs of things I havent messed with personally.

Like rotors, housings and anything inside the block.

i have built 4 of these cars by hand.
from body to engine, (except transmissions and the inner workings of the trochod chamers and rotors).

I am also an engineer, and have very strick "best practices" methods that I use to get nearly 100% the expected result from my cars and any repairs thereto.

I am merely suggesting that people should put the mechanisms inquestion on these enigmatic machines BACK TO STOCK operation tolerancees, learn WHY they are done that way and ONLY THEN should they proceed with major modifications.

When I give a spec for a part, its from the book.

finky

iTrader: (2)

hey speedracer thanks for the tip. They were hard to move so I thought I was opening them actually I was closing them. I did not know there was a difference between 86 and 88+ on the direction of the actuator.

SpeedRacer

Ok, I'm assuming your half-quoting from one of my previous posts on this thread...well thats just not fair. Read back on this post and look at the information I have provided. I am not, and have never claimed to be a rotary expert. But I do happen to have a pretty good understanding of 6-ports and how they work on 86-88, as well as 89-91 FC's. I didn't just say "wire 'em open and your top end will kicks ***" I mentioned that I wasn't sure what year the car being referred to was, and I gave a few options of what could be done for both sets of years. I also didn't claim I have more HP than anybody else because I have my 6-ports wired open. Its just a lot easier for some of us who have removed all of our emissions stuff, and for those of us who don't mind the slight loss in low-end.

BhamBill

No - It won't. The ATF will only go into the rotor housings. The sleeves are outside the housings in the ports.

RobH

Sorry if it seemed like I was knocking you, I wasnt referring to anyone specifically in this thread...I have seen this topic rehashed on both this forum and the team FC3S list, so it was a culmination of both. So many times has someone said "my 6 ports didnt work, then I wired them open and now my top end is awesome!" NO, your top end is what it should have been.

Why this bothers me is because a new person to the RX-7 community reads it, then makes the assumption that wired aux ports = killer top end. They do it, pass it on, and the cycle continues. What you end up with is a couple of otherwise knowledgeable people passing on hearsay, when infact tieing your 6 ports open is hurting your performance any way you look at it. Yes, the low end loss is easily lived with [ Ive done it for a month], but you must step back and realize why your top end is now good, because the engine is running as MAZDA designed it.
Im sure they put a good sum of money into this "pseudo-VTEC"
and it was meant to work correctly.

What also gets me is how mysterious the auxiliary ports really are to the RX-7 community. No one seems to know anything about them, some drivers dont even know they have them. Few know where they are, and even fewer know what lies beyond that actuator. I think If some spent the amount of time they do ASKING questions working on the car, they would know alot more and use their time more efficiently, IMHO. I learned worlds more tearing into my Lower Intake Manifold then I ever read on 3 different RX-7 lists and this forum.

Sorry If I offended anyone,

BTW, Speedracer, You seemed to have the best grip of all this, I am definitely not knocking you. [ I am looking ino engineering myself ;-) ] Although, these cars that we help eachother with ARE over 100k so it is a real factor to keep in mind. I think its a very important factor actually.

Also, keep in mind I am not knocking those who DO tie them open. Hell, MINE are tied open. All I am saying is that alot of information is passed over the internet, and it is not all sound advice. I have alot of time spent on email lists and the like, and see alot of beginners get really confused due to what they read/ heard.

I know you cant infer all the info from one post, but the first question I ask in reference to 6 ports is "what year is your car?" This eliminates many mistakes and unecessary info that others will read and mis-interpret.

This recent post by finky is exactly my point. Where did he get the idea to turn them a certain way? from this forum? maybe...He was mis-informed and suffered a HP loss that could have been avoided if someone just asked for his model year ;-) Or he specified his model year when asking the question. I include mine in my sig for this very reason.

Ok, Sorry If i offended anyone, Im off to bed ;-)

Ryde _Or_Die

Is there a way to get to them to lubricate them & clean them? I don't have an honest clue where they are or what they look like even. Thanks.

Mike W

if you do not know where they are or what they look like it would not be wise to attempt cleaning them. it requires taking the lower intake runners and manifold out. as for my 6-ports though, i just built my motor and spent a good while cleaning them and they do not appear to be working at all. i'll probably just go in and take the sleeves themselves out