I questioned this as well on the first page.

Rotarygod, your answer amazes me, saying we can't flame without trying.
I've never tried to convert my rotary to steam power either, maybe I should give it a shot?

Get dyno proof, before and after, and then come praising this mod. Until then, it doesn't make sense. And *** dyno's lie.

 

i agree with both of the last responses. I am sure it works, but you hve subjected your manifold, fuel injectors t things they werent designed for. i am sure it works for now. you said yourself that when you put the jb weld on it works... at first. it works fine now but i predict that it will fail in the future.

oh and what is this bull$hit about "if you dont like it dont post" that sounds quite childish, if all of the experts just let a bunch of idiots (not in reference to you) run around and spout off misinformaton there would be a lot of people wiht screwed up cars due to this forum. there are enough people on this form that plenty of idiots spout off incorrect info. so dont hate the doubt, prove us wrong. NASA didnt get to the moon by taking some guys word for it.

Justin

 

Rotarygod, you are not the end-all for knowledge or trying new things here. So stop thinking everything you say or do is always right, just because you said it. If oyu would actually take the advice RETed gave you, instead of flaming him for pointing out the weak points of your manifold mod, you might see an improvement.

Nobody was every great by disagreeing with people who know more than they do.

 

Fuel injector phasing times the opening of the fuel injectors in relation to the "crank" timing.&nbsp The primary fuel injectors and secondary fuel injectors are in different locations relative to the intake tract.&nbsp The ECU has a specific "time delay" on which to shoot each fuel injector due to position of the fuel injectors in the intake system.&nbsp Moving them around can potentially cause hesitations when they turn on/off.



-Ted

 

You're taking this the wrong way.&nbsp I did not flame your *** for doing something new.&nbsp My comments were "critical", but they were in no way insulting.&nbsp If you construe my replies as such, get your head out of your ***.&nbsp If you want a basic gist of what I was trying to say, here it is:&nbsp your "experiment" breaks a lot of conventions that have been formulated and proven by the Society of Automotive Engineers http://www.sae.org/ - I just wanted dyno proof to back up claims of any advantage.&nbsp THAT'S IT.


Sure, there is nothing wrong with that.&nbsp You'd better be ready for all the criticism for doing a "mod" which hasn't been done and CLAIM to make more/better power.&nbsp Thus, the dyno runs are the proof you need.

If this was directed towards me, I hope you notice I don't go into those threads.&nbsp Officially, I am against any turbo retrofit on an NA.


You are correct on that.&nbsp Once you mods ANYTHING on the car, you break the "prefect compromise" of the engineering design that Mazda has put millions of dollars into.&nbsp The car will be more noisy/less driveable/more emissions/unsafe (you name it).&nbsp I never said it wasn't.

Now, you sound like an immature punk - I think you're the one who should grow up.&nbsp Come on man, get off your smokin high.&nbsp You think just because you think you came across a revolutionary idea that we should all bow down to your feet?&nbsp Bullshit - get that idea out of your head.&nbsp This is a poker game...you just raised the ante...we just called your raise.&nbsp So do you fold and look like a chump, or do you call and show your cards?&nbsp The dyno doesn't lie.&nbsp So far, all I've heard is a lot of hype and hoopla - this makes you no better than those sales crocks that are hocking electric superchargers and Tornado inserts on here.&nbsp LET'S SEE THE DYNO RUNS AND PROOF!!???



-Ted

 

Yes, and these people have wasted a lot of time and effort just slapping on different kinds of parts.&nbsp An "engineer" deduces a logical progression of modification based on proven theoretical principals.&nbsp You, my friend, are not an engineer - unless you can prove otherwise?&nbsp I base my comment on HOURS of FSAE paper readings http://www.sae.org/ and conversations with a true mechanical engineering with a Bachelor's degree in M.E. on this subject.&nbsp So what's your background?

So you're saying just because someone slapped siamesed runners on a GM TPI intake, that you can apply that to a rotary engine?&nbsp Boy, do you look stupid to assume it'll work - WHERE'S THE DYNO SHEET?&nbsp Do you even have a clue on the dynamics of the rotary engine and the stock intake manifold?&nbsp Are you going to claim 260hp to the WHEELS from an NA engine just because you're running a stand-alone and running siamesed intake runners and managed to run a 12.6x down the 1/4-mile???&nbsp Someone threw that claim in my face at one point online too...&nbsp WHERE'S THE DYNO SHEET?

So now we're going to turn this into a history lesson?&nbsp You do realize that Columbus theorized WRONG that he could sail around the world to hit India - you can blame him fore calling the Native American "Indians" for his ****-up.&nbsp You realize that Columbus was on the verge of getting his sorry *** thrown in the dungeon for all the previous ****-ups (i.e. sinking ships, not coming through on his promises for "trade") until his "discovered" America.&nbsp You do realize that the Vikings has "discovered" North America *centuries* prior to Columbus' accident in 1492?&nbsp I'm sorry you call this man your hero...

Since we're giving the history lesson, you do remember the constitution gives us the right of freedom of speech.&nbsp I can say whatever I want - it doesn't mean you have to like what I say.


Please, don't even bring aviation application into the subject...

I asked is one was in the works...

Okay dumbass, it comes down to this.&nbsp I don't care about all this ****, but if you can't answer these questions, don't even bother replying to my posts...

1) Have any of these "mods" been dyno'd yet?
2) Can you post the back-to-back dyno runs with stock items?

Posting as "rotarygod" looks a bit Narcissus, don't you think?&nbsp Come on Mr. god, back your **** up or else you're just blowing a whole lot of crap...

Crap is cheap - I crap in the toliet everyday.


-Ted

 

As quoted by RETed - Crap is cheap - I crap in the toliet everyday.

LOL

I'm on the same level of exsistence as RETed. I crap in a tiolet everyday too. Sometimes twice a day.

This thread is better than the usual carb vs. FI debate or the single vs dual exhaust debate.

 

Although I do like to see people try out new ideas whether good or bad. There are some things that were designed by career engineers that simply cannot be improved upon. I hate to see this guy get shook down because of his errors. Maybe he was unaware of some of the points metioned here. I'm a "tinkering" kind of guy who likes to just tear suff apart and try to make it better. Usually I make things worse, but in the process, I learn something. I have a feeling this guy is learning along the way, and maybe one day he'll come up with a winner. On the other hand I do not like the fact that he would try to sell this setup to anyone without "proof." my 2¢

 

Damn Ted whos flaming who here? I actually have always thought of you as one of the more intelligent people on this forum. Please don't make me change my mind. I respect your position as an engineer. I'm an engineering student th the University of Houston and hope to be done one day in the not too distant future. I know there are critics out there and I respect that. I wish people would try to point things out in a little nicer fashion if they have a question rather than say that it was "stupid". If I feel someone is being a little rude and offensive towards me I will respond the same. If you didn't mean anything harsh then you have my apologies. I didn't start this thread to create a big flame war or debate. I simply did it to show others how I have done things in the past and what I have found to work. Its simple that if you don't like it or agree with it then please don't try it! I'm sorry I can't afford $100 an hour to do a dyno run every time I do a little change. I would rather use an engine dyno anyways since dynojets are junk. Unfortunately I don't have the resources necessary to keep an extra engine on a stand all day for me to experimant with. I have done many things that haven't worked. I don't post those. My overall goal on my GSL-SE which is running the modded S5 intake is to use a stand alone ecu. For now it is running the stock ecu with only the 2 primary injectors and is MUCH quicker than stock. I hope the 'tinkerer' in everyone can appreciate my efforts since I just don't believe in spending thousands of dollars on something I can do myself. This thread has gone a direction it was never intended to go so I'll just end any further posts on the matter and let the rest of the world wonder. At the very least no one can claim to have been right or wrong although I'm sure someone will try to claim a victory. The main intent was to show how to further increase airflow through the manifold which is does do on a flowbench. I'm not going to stop doing these mods though so I must know something about it. When I finish the car then I'll get a dynojunk run on it. Until then why waste time and money just to prove something so someone else. I don't have to justify myself to anyone no matter what they say but I also don't post bs. Oh and I never said siamesed runners work on a rotary. The do increase the usable torque spread on a TPI V-8. Regardless of what any of you guys feel about me I hold no ill will against any of you so long as you weren't being mean to me. I'll still support anything of yours that I read and agree with. If I seem to disagree then I'll at least try to do it in a nice way. Ted you are not my enemy and I don't hate you so please don't feel the same. I wish we hadn't have had a flame war.

 

To make such ignorant statements on dynomometers pretty much sums it up.&nbsp There is nothing useful I can add.&nbsp My replies to this thread stops here.


-Ted

 

It's amazing how one can still try to be nice in spite of criticism and still get insulted! Definitely just convinced me to change my opinion of you. Thanks for clearing that up. You are correct there is nothing useful you can add! Thanks for not replying anymore.

 

It's MY thread why should I stop posting on it just because a couple of people disagree with what I have already known to work!

Thanks to all the people who sent me PM's convincing me to keep on going with this. You know who you are

OK here is the T-II plenum after it has been hollowed out. I still have alot of work to do in it to get it smooth but you get the idea. This one is keeping the factory throttle body. After I get everything the way I want it inside then I'll go ahead and polish it nice and smooth (this ain't no carb manifold ya know!). Still need to do the injector relocation on this one as well. When I start the lower manifold then I'll worry about that.

I know you guys want dyno runs to prove it works instead of me just saying it does. Wait until after everything is done and I'll get around to it. I still have a neat experiment to try with the exhaust too. Until then I'll use G-tech runs to base improvements upon. Just think about this: You wouldn't go into a church and directly ask everyone to show you actual physical proof that God does exist would you? Some people believe, some know, some don't, and others don't care. I know what I believe in and thats all that matters. It by no means makes me the be all end all of ingenuity though and I will never claim that.

Anyways here is the latest pic so flame away!

 

I have actually modified a stock throttle body extensively from a 1990 GTU. Beginning in the complete disassembly of the throttle body and the removal of the “warm-up” butterflies and shaft. All shafts and butterflies are removed and cleaned/polished. All linkage, dashpot and emissions related pieces are removed. The inside of the throttle body is cleaned and highly polished, but not to distort the shape. Everything is then reassembled with the dashpot and emissions related items left off. Basically there are the two TPS’s and the two sets of butterflies with related linkage reinstalled. After installation the car does idle a bit higher, but the throttle response and power is very noticeable. I am very interested in the intake mod. Great idea and after reading I am now looking for a intake for my 1990 GTU! I haven’t installed the BBK or other Ford 75mm throttle body yet, but I may in the future.

 

Oh yeah....you ********* just wasted 10 minutes of my time reading your "my dick is bigger than your dick" stories. Thanks ALOT!

 

Damn that was funny Gershom! Sorry about that just defending myself

Here's a new pic showing what the before and after of the inside manifold looks like. You can see the restrictive injector mount protruding WAY into the airstream on the right side while the left one is nice and open I think we can all see which one flows more and why there is a gain to be had from doing this. The bump also interferes with the return pulse which is responsible for the VDI effect. The power gains we are getting when the VDI opens are not due to an airflow event but rather an acoustical tuning effect. Theoretically the longer runners of the S5 manifold vs the S4 manifold should make less top end power. Acoustics changed all that. When the sound wave bounces back up the intake it runs into the wall and dissipates somewhat which slightly lessens the VDI effect by muffling the return wave. No more barrier=a 'louder' return wave and a slight gain. Once again the real gain is not necessarily the new location of the injectors but the fact that these bumps are removed. Of course Mazda engineered them to be there so they must make more power

Here it is...

 

I just had to say something......but I like your idea.....and I am sick and tired of people telling me....you can't do something because it has never been done before.....who the hell cares......if it works it works....figure out why and how you can better it....thats what we are built on! Anyways.....anyone have a S5 upper and lower intake for sale?

 

Im sick of people coming on here claiming their mod is the best thing that ever happened to FC owners with nothing more than a butt dyno to prove it adds hp.

I have no problem with people trying new things. Actually, I do it myself all the time. BUT, I dont make outrageous claims of hp increases without PROOF.

 

Good thing you don't get to decide what people post on forums.

Why don't you start your own forum where posters are required to provide dyno sheets whenever they post estimated HP gains or they will be banned. That sounds like fun!

Heaven forbid anyone share their experience when performing mods prior to a dyno run. Run down to the patent office and make sure to get all of your leagl Es in place or prepare to burn in hell!

Hey rotarygod,

Thanks for sharing. It may work out that this type of mod helps others experiment and refine similar mods to help us attain more reliable power with our cars. I'm happy someone has the guts to dissect their intake so I can learn before I start hacking into one myself.

As for Ted's point of view, I have been on mailing lists with him in the past and he does know more than a heaping helping about these cars, but he has also butted heads with numerous poster in the past, including me. Jut let it ride. He makes some great points, but the delivery has always been a little rough. We like him anyway!

Thanks again!

J

 

BTW, with the intrest in this mod, one of my friends is giving me a S4 UIM and LIM. I'm planning on doing a modified version of this mod myself, for ***** and giggles, and I'm not opposed to having some dyno results posted. Back to Back, the only difference is the intake (I have a working 5/6th port system, and VDI system, which obviously wouldn't work after the swap)

This will be done in about a month or so. So just chill. And give me a little time to get this all together, and my planned modifications finished.

 

mod mod mod mod mod... **** I said mod/modify/modification a lot.

 

Not to sound ignorent, but what is a 5th/6th port? I know how the secondary port actuators work and why....is the 5/6 port just another term for that? I am not new to my rotary, I have been doing weird stuff to it for years.....I am just not educated on terms like that one....sorry.....and by the way GO ROTARY GOD!! I had someone tell me that I couldn't put a TII driverain (manual trans, center section) in my automatic car....but I did it!! YEAH!!

 

: || : <~ 6-port engine configuration.

the outer, lower ports (w/ the actuators in them) are the 5/6th ports.

 

If you know how the intake manifold is setup, and really works, you would know that doing that mod to the plenum of a n/a is going to KILL his low end, and only for a marginal increase in top end, if any. The intake manifolds, especially S5 n/a ones, are VERY well tuned from the factory. Mazda knew rotaries had very strong intake pulses, and tuning those pulses makes for big gains. Do you have any idea how much Mazda spent on designing that intake manifold? Do you really think you can gain power everywhere, when its so well engineered from the factory?
The only downside of the S5 n/a manifold is that the runners are a little narrow. It works great on a stock motor, but once the intake and exhaust are opened up, the runners are a little too small. Porting the manifold definately helps, but like everything else, you gotta lose something to gain something else.


Like I said before, I have no problem with people trying new things. People trying new things is the foundation of everything. Where would we be if noone would be willign to try something new.
BUT when you try something that goes against long proven ideas, you BETTER have some kind of proof other than "well, it feels faster".

 

Guys I'm still plugging away at things slowly. Been busy this week. I'm trying to get the T-II manifold complete along with a custom air/water intercooler so I can get them sent off to Dallas to go on BDC's car. I'll get some new pictures up within the next few days.

There are a couple of people on this thread who are trying to start their own rotary business (you know who you are) and even at least one owner and feel that anything that improves performance in any way that can't be bought will have an adverse affect on their business and are therefore a threat to them. This is not in their best interests and therefore "a bad idea".

I never said "well, it feels faster". The claim I made at the beginning of the thread is that aiflow is increased through the manifold. I said my car is noticably faster. I can't personally account for other peoples work and therefore accept no responsibility if someone messed theirown car up. Believe me I messed mine up several times trying things and never blames anyone else for i. the best advise would be to get a spare and modify it instead of your good one. If you don't like it then go back to what you had. Simple enough and you won't hurt my feelings either way. Oh yeah I never made any outrageous horsepower claims either so will the flamers stop putting words in my mouth!

As a little side note for all who think they are magically going to be the first to hit 200 rwhp on a 2nd gen n/a 6 port.....um well it has been done before by several people. Notice I didn't say I hit it so don't ask me for dyno numbers because you aren't going to get them.

Please stop the flaming! If you don't like it then fine I could care less. Don't get on here saying that I have made all these claims when I haven't. I already restated my claims above. thanks to all the dignified people on here! I appreciate it.

 

this thread is rediculous, you cant expect to bring forth an untested mod and not get negative feedback. the fact is we dont want everyone and their brother going out and trying some stupid **** some guy said on the forum. the fact is, there are a lot of people who know more about the engine that the "rotarygod" and dont want incorrect info floating around. we arent arguing for the sake of the argument.

Ghershom, your "extensively" modified throttle body is commonly reffered to as the "TB mod" and just about every N/A owner has done it.

this Mod DOES cause adverse effects to the rotary as compared to the stock manifold, and we need a dyno to figure out what its problems are, no mod has all pros and no cons, we jsut want to know what the cons of this one are.

"well, it feels faster" = "my car is noticeably faster" if you cant write a paragraph without contradicting yourself why should we believe this mod does anything at all.

oh and i could put 3 inch pipes to all my ports and it would "flow better" but that doesnt mean that it makes more hp

Justin

Edit: you did make a claim at hp numbers when you said it feels noticeably faster, you need to learnt to back up your mods with evidence, especially if you are offering to sell these