I think using the "plastic steel epoxy" would be a possible hazard to engine health- what if it comes out.

Here are my thoughts on securing the sleeves...

1) Remove the cross pin.

2) Grind a notch in the iron at the top center of the port. (Be sure you put something INSIDE the port to prevent the metal shavings from getting inside the engine!!!!)

3) Cut a slit in the sleeve at the position that corresponds to the notch in the iron.

4) slip the sleeve in and "stake" it in place using a punch and a hammer. That way it won't rotate.

I like what you've done with the manifolds BTW.

Brad

 

I agree that this portion of this thread is rediculous.

FYI - "feels faster" and "is noticeably faster" are not contradicting statements.

Nor are they hp numbers.

They simply indicate that in his experience, he has come to the conclusion that his car seems to have improved in power at some RPM.

This is not a debatable fact. It is simply his observation. Whether his butt dyno is accurate or not can only be proven by actual dyno numbers, which he never attempted to give without proof.

Engine maufacturers do a lot of designing for many more reasons than attaining the highest power output. If you are under the impression that the stock manifold and intake ports on a second generation RX-7 are the pinnacle of Mazda design, I would say you are right. If the pinnacle of that design was to reduce emissions while attaining low end torque. Which it was. Intake pulse and exhaust pulse go hand in hand, and having small intake runners with high vacume induction into the rotor housing will ultimately make a high velocity intake path. The smaller and smoother that path, the higher velocity you get. This does not always mean you will get more air and or fuel into the combustion chamber. That is determined by how much air/fuel gets in before the timing closes the intake port.

While cutting into the intake and grinding away may not be the best approach to finding a nice balance, you might just stumble across something that works amazingly well without justification.

So, instead of ripping everyone a new **** when they post that they appear to have made additional power with a mod, simply state that anyone reading this post needs to understand that results may vary depending on numerous variables and should not be attempted by those not willing to risk failure.


I don't want to run off someone who might potentially make a breakthrough discovery simply over a pissing match. There are some really great concepts out there that you may never hear of if the person who performed them hates the forum.

J

 

Does anyone have dyno figures for the pineapple racing sleeve and the TB mod? I know it should be faster like some of the claims made by Rotarygod, I like to know proof for any of those other claims as well.
Regarding the pinnacle of mazda engineering for the intake, they musta felt asleep on the sharp 90deg rotating sleeves.:

 

rotarygod - Hats off for trying something new. Your mod to the intake manifold might be an alternative for my ported engine. I had thought about using the S4 lower intake, porting it to match the engine and make a custom intake like on one of your other threads. Now I'm going to try the one on this thread first since I already have the intakes(S4 and S5 N/A, S4 TII) in the garage.

To everyone that insist on flaming rotarygod - Chill out. Make your statement and be done with it. Are you afraid he may actually have something you don't have. OMG, he is making more HP than me and its with something I didn't think about doing. I'll just flame him and then secretly try it myself. Get a life. You scream "I want to see some before/after dyno results" only because you haven't produced a good dyno sheet yourself.

Having said that I'm sure someone will criticize me now and you know what. I don't care.

 

I TOTALLY agree!!

I mean he might be wrong in some weird M.E. stuff or maybe F.E., but he try and is willing to share it.

Just to point something, some people in here swear by the intake porting, Do we have any HP numbers on that?!?!?

Just chill and let's help him out!!

 

Agreed, but maybe it added a little extra turbulence for better combustion. You never know what the heck they were thinking.

 

I have read this thread and have a few comments to add....I am not an engineer, nor a rocket scientist or a nuclear physicist, however I do have a little bit of common sense and know that if it were not for people experimenting and pushing the bubble to its extremes or to unknown areas, we would not have the electricity, automobiles or other technological advances that we enjoy today. To say that an engineer is supreme and that no advances can be made on his product is just sheer stupidity!!!
I have seen (as have others) many an "engineering" marvel to be made better by a simple backyard mechanic that did not even graduate but knows common sense when he sees it. I think that a lot of the time a product is made (or engineered) for a specific purpose...i.e. money, greed, etc...and does not take into account the real benefits that could be gained if these were not the motivating reasons.
Yes, I do believe that tests should be done, not only to prove it works but also to improve on it by seeing what each change does. However, to say that an item or product cannot be improved upon because an engineer or company put countless hours or X amount of $$$ into it is just plain ignorant and suppresses the idea that the average “Joe” cannot improve upon an idea or product.
Yes, I do believe in engineers and the work that they do, just do not forget that they were once called “Inventors”

 

I love you guys! (No I'm not gay!!!) Thanks for at the very least supporting my creativity and the time I've invested in this. I understand that some won't agree with it and I can accept that. While certain people require proof it works at the very least don't discredit it until you have proof that it doesn't. Like I've said before I first did this about 4 years ago and I PERSONALLY loved it. If you try it and don't like it then thats fine. Please don't do this to your only manifold. Get a spare!

RX-7Impreza: You are correct when you say it will adversely affect low end power. In the beginning I said it would help above not below 4000 rpm. Both of my RX-7's are toys so I didn't personally mind the reduction. However I still did get the car to pass Texas emissions testing and in no way was it hard to drive on the street. I actually do appreciate your position in regards to people posting bs. It unfortunately does happen. Believe me there is a great deal of work involved in what I do to these manifolds and if it didn't work at least to my liking then I wouldn't have done more than one. You don't need the Mustang tb btw. I just like the look personally and made it work for me.

One more thing I should address. I'm not trying to sell these to make money. I am doing this as a person who understands that not everyone has the resources to do this even though they may want to. If nobody wants one it still won't hurt my feelings. Like I said I don't profit off of it. I believe that we as RX-7 enthusiasts should try to help everyone be their best instead of trying to always challenge each other. I could care less who's car makes more hp than mine. If I can help someone add even 1 hp over what they had because they hadn't thought of something before then I am happy. I am improving airflow through the manifold and that is my goal. When I have a manifold that can flow as much as my intake ports and still tune the engine for a usable power band then I'll be totally satisfied. Sorry to keep rambling guys

 

As you guys can see.....this is what my 4th or 5th reply on this forum? Well I have had the car for many years and have done many things to it, but never shared it with anyone because of the kind of ego bashing b/s that is going on here. How am I supposed to know that many N/A have done this mod? I enjoy working on and maintaining my 1990 GTU....that's all. I can't even believe that I am replying to such an egotistic post! Leave the poor guy alone....he tried something.....he has every right in the world to tell people that he tried it and to the BEST OF HIS KNOWLEDGE it works! I always thought RX-7 guys were cool...well at least the ones that I have met and talked with. I am really starting to realize that like with all "groups" of people there are some that don't like to hear original thoughts or think just because they didn't think of it first or thought that it wouldn't work it's a moronic claim/idea. Not to get off of the subject....but what would have happened if Felix Wankel's stopped after his first rotary engine didn't work properly or at all? That's right.....we would be talking about Mustangs, Hondas, Z cars or some other type of "sports" car and I do use the words "sports car" loosely. If you are trying to make money that's great, but don't try to detour others from enjoying a hobby/car! If you really wanted to make money....you should encourage others to try things to their car and then you could at least say you helped others and did it HONESTLY. I think a lot of so called businesses including small and large are very dishonest especially when a potential customer can do a mod just as good as them. Businesses have to keep on finding their niche, its not consumers fault that the businesses aren't coming up with new ideas to keep consumers interested in them! By the way....as noted in other posts by me...there are some of you that owe me another 10 minutes......Thanks a lot!

 

I'll try to find a way to make up about 25 minutes for you Gershom!

 

Believe me RotaryGod...you have not wasted any of my time....its the others that have been tying this post up with needless bashing. You Sir have got me thinking and I have been looking for proof that an intake mod will work or seem to work well.....When I get another intake for my car and proform the things and other mods you are talking about I will let YOU know what the story is. It doesn't take long to switch intakes on my car since all the emissions and the "Throttle body mod that most N/A guys do first". Thank you and I bow to you!

 

if you read where they came from in his post you would see that he said "i never said 'well, it feels faster'" and then two sentences later he says "I only said it feels noticeably faster"

so you are right, those are not contradicting statements, but he said that he did say one and didnt say the other

in my opinion when someone claims they made their car faster that directly attributes to one or more of four things 1 increase in hp 2increase in torque 3 lightened car 4 flattened powerband

i am not saying he didnt improve something, i just want numbers to look at to decide what are the pros and cons of this mod. butt dynos and "feels faster" dont cut it

Justin

 

rotarygod i think we are on the same page now, i have nothing against people who think up wacked stuff for their cars, where do you think 90% of the common mods came from, who was the first person to do the TB mod?? but i do support the skeptics, if it werent for criticism we wouldnt have to double check what we are doing. i have thought of many a strange mods for my car, but i expect to be asked the whole slew of questions to support my mods, it goes with the territory

Justin

 

Here is a shot of the mighty (?) S5 n/a plenum cut apart. You can see that the factory secondary butterflies each feed a single intake port on the engine respectively while the single plate feeds the primaries. The problem lies within the primaries. Each runner intersects the plenum at a slightly upward angle. As a result the rebounding pressure wave is somwhat dissipated because it first reflects off of the upper runners instead of getting a clear shot across to the other side. By hogging out the plenum the airflow is more evenly distributed throughout all the runners. The secondaries are still in line with the throttle plates so they aren't affected that much. The thing that changes about the secondaries is the pressure wave tuning before VDI kicks in. After VDI kicks in the tuning is done farther down the intake stream but the improved airflow distribution is still retained.

Here it is...

 

Sorry for being so negative earlier, I just have a habit of being the devils advocate. I wasnt trying to belittle you, or what youre doing, I just wanted to point out a few possible problems you didnt touch on.

I want to see how well the S5 n/a upper works for you. Could you do a back to back test of a stock upper, then your ported upper? I just ported my motor, and I need as much airflow as I possibly can get through the stock manifold until I get my custom manifold finished. Its already heavily ported, but I cant sacrifice much bottom end. Let me know how yours works.

 

i wanna see yourt modifyed MAF, that thing is restrictive as hell

 

mazdaspeed7: No problem man. We're all friends here I understand scepticism. If you can't sacrifice much bottom end then this is honestly probably not for you. It is still quite streetable but you will lose low end power. The biggest reason being due to the loss of the 6-port actuation. FWIW I do alot of auto-x and road course events and my times have gotten better. Could be my driving though I would like to do a back to back test but I would either need 2 identically prepared cars or 2 different plenums so I could swap one out for the other. My main basis for judging results has been the G-tech. I don't care if it is directly accurate with the track timers but it is very consistent run after run and is a good judge of what gained and what lost. Some gains I noticed were an average of only a half a second faster in the quarter with a streetported motor vs. a non ported one (surprised me). Since I have a GSL-SE I adjusted the leading/trailing timing split from factory 15 degrees to 10 degrees and picked up another quarter of a second. I do 5 runs and average all the times together. I try to be consistent when it comes to temperature and weather conditions so the results won't be affected that much. It works. That car started in the mid 16's stock and is down to the low 15's with the stock intake. Its been raining here for the past couple of weeks so I can't go get new times with anything new. I am VERY confident that it will hit 14's when it dries up.

I do have an exhaust idea but this is not proven yet so I can't make any claims on it only speculation. when the intake is completely done to my satisfaction I will work on this area. I wish I'd have saved the original modded manifold from my old car a few years ago. Anyways for all the n/a guys who don't need to worry about emission I was thinking about this setup. I saw a Ferrari 360 and stared at its exhaust for a long time. Different than anything I had ever seen. I was thinking about adapting its design over to rotary to see if it would work (at all). Basically it is a compromise between the old debate of which is better true duals or a collected system. Why not both! I had the dual once and had great low and mid power but lacked on top. I've also tried the collected systems (which I have right now) and have much better top end. Why not take and run a completely dual system out the back through their own tips (nothing new here). In addition somewhere in line we could also branch off of the duals into a collector that would join into one single. We could then send this out the back as well. Half of the air is going collected and the other half is going dual. Just like the 360 Modena. We could get really trick and put a butterfly valve on the collected side which would open up when the true dual no longer has an advantage. Just brainstorming here and it sounds logical but then again who knows. I'll play with that at another time.

drago86: Sorry about the delay on the AFM. I keep forgetting to take pictures of that. I have to go pull it off the car.

Sorry to ramble on again guys. Gershom I might owe you a couple of minutes for that!

 

You are correct, but it really has nothing to do with emissions.&nbsp Emissions has always been a "band-aid fix" slapped on after target power goals are met.

Boy, I'm touched...is this going to turn into another Us versus Them rally?

I hope your posts are not directed towards me.&nbsp I had specifically asked what these mods were for from the beginning - I don't think I ever got an answer for that question.&nbsp Those mods MIGHT make higher peak power - no way in hell it's going to make better low end power, which makes this a "non-streetable" set-up.

I added my comments (whether you like them or not) which was backed with proven principles and theories of the study.&nbsp The last time I checked, this was how most intellectual and technical debates are done in this modern age.&nbsp The response I got was - it feels faster, to paraphrase - is not good enough.

The proverbial cherry on the topping was when rotarygod said a dyno was a waste of time.&nbsp I mentioned this was a very ignorant thing to say - I did not use the word "stupid".&nbsp I've used the DynoJet 248C and 248E versions with very good results.&nbsp For example, messing with a Honda H22A tuning cam gears and a Haltech on the DynoJet shows significant gains (and losses) with changes to:&nbsp base timing, cam gears, ignition maps, fuel maps, and VTEC RPM.&nbsp I want to see your butt dyno do all of that in a couple of hours.&nbsp It has already been scientifically proven that changes in engine (exhaust) notes can easily change the person's perception of power output, period.

Power claims are all being backed by dyno runs.&nbsp If you deny this, I guess you're the ones who believe the "+15hp gains from our air filter!' ads.&nbsp Ignorance is bliss, I guess...

I never said anything about surpressing creativity or trying something new.&nbsp In fact, counter to your impression, I'm all for it.&nbsp There is a method to trying something new using sound engineering information, and it is something else trying something which you have no idea what you're trying to do.&nbsp To deny prior engineering theories is pretty stupid, to say the least.&nbsp Please, don't turn this into a "someone claimed the world was flat" argument; you're getting an education in school - to deny all prior knowledge means you deny YOUR education.

This whole mess can easily be put to rest if rotarygod put his invention on a dyno.&nbsp Hell, since he's bitching about cost, how's about this deal:&nbsp I'd like to see 3 dyno runs, back-to-back-to-back, stock-modded-stock dyno runs.&nbsp I WILL PAY FOR THE DYNO RUNS, just to see what kinda numbers it'll produce.&nbsp Are you up to the challenge?

I'd ideally like to see it run on a DynoJet, but we can't be picky at this point.&nbsp Do the dyno runs as described aboved, and I will reimburst you for the dyno charges for those runs, in full.

Boy, all the crap I get myself into when I stick my head back into a thread I said I wasn't going to in the first place...



-Ted

 

Welcome back Ted! Like I said when I'm done with everything I'll get you your dyno numbers. There will be no discussion in this area. That is final!!!

Anyways OK drago86 here is a pic of a ported afm. It is a very dark picture. I tried to get better lighting but nothing worked that well. This is a 2nd gen afm off of my friends car. It is pretty hard to tell but everything is smooth with no jagged edges. Some spots were ground down and others were filled in. I did not touch the flapper door or the area that it swings in. I did modify the entrance and exits to smoothen airflow. This won't do a whole lot unless you replace that plastic intake pipe from the afm to the tb though since it is full of ridges.

Warning to anyone who tries this: The afm is a very expensive piece to be playing with. If you mess it up it will cost you. I DID grind all the way through in some spots to achieve the desired shape but I also filled it back in the way I wanted. This is a very risky mod and I can't endorse it unless you are absolutely sure you can make it work properly. Saying that I can not take responsibility it you mess the afm up. This is a very minor gain and not really worth doing unless you have a smooth aluminum intake pipe to the tb. However every little bit counts. The restriction still lies within the flapper door itself. This can't be avoided without an aftermarket ecu. Sorry for the low quality pic.

 

Here's a neat little pic showing the S4 T-II inner plenum vs. the S5 n/a plenum cut apart. You can see the port runner openings for the T-II are much larger than the n/a. The T-II is a mid construction shot while the n/a is a newly opened one.

 

Don't worry Rotary God you haven't wasted my time. Anything I can learn or get my mind turning is worth reading. Anyways....we all know that our MAF setup stinks. Although what has been done to convert to speed denisity? Chevy and Ford guys do it all the time. Why can't we. Also the exhaust thing...sounds expensive....and I kind of know what you are talking about......mechanics in the exhaust has proven unrealible in the past....not sure about that...but there are lots of options here. Considering a full Racing Beat set-up for a N/A is costly to say the least. I will do some research into the speed density thing. Thanks Again Guys!

 

how are you adjusting your AFM settings to allow for the increase volume of air and the change in air characteristis???

these things only work because they know "if door A opens this much, then this much air can flow by it" if you change the AFM then you will be getting more air than your AFM is reading.

Justi

 

He didnt port the area that actually measures the airflow. Basically, he ported the inlet and outlet of the AFM to minimize restriction.

 

RotaryGod, the 2 most important words you can say when discussing a mod are "Dyno" and "proven". Some people prefer to use a ! or 2 at the end of the phrase, i think it would help in our case here.

I Like RETed, hes helped me out and answered my questions before. Ted knows his stuff. He is just giving out some constructive criticism even though it may not be presented in such a candy coated way. Ted is an Engineer, and i quote a famous movie line:

"L-L-Look!!! I already told you, I deal w/ the Goddam customers so the engineers dont have to!"

Anyways, We all know that you cant gain something w/o losing another thing. These mods can be good or bad, depending on what your intended use for the car is. If your using it for Autocross where you need a broad power band, then this may not be the best mod for you. However, if you are looking to run some impressive #s at the 1/4 mile, this could be the mod for you. We all know that 2nd Gen RX7s are hard to hook out of the hole. and if you DID get it to hook on the launch, you can easily break something if you had enough horsepower (And on an RX7, it doesnt take much HP to break stock suspension parts). So, move the extra HP up to the mid range and top end where you have less of a chance of wheel spin, not to mention, you arent going to be shifting at 5000. When you shift, you want your rpms to drop down to the point in powerband before it peaks.

The issue of Streetability is relative. It pretty much depends on if you are an adaptive driver or not. If you are a sissy who cant adapt to a car w/ different characteristics then, what can i say...maybe you shouldnt have an RX7. I have a preference of leaving from a stop by NOT revving the engine up. I just slip the clutch enough and and feather the gas. I get rolling pretty easily and the RPMs dont go above 1500. Hell, i can get it goin pretty well just by gettin to 1000-1200 rpm. Now if i do these mods and install some racing sleeves and a header, ill probably have to slip the clutch a little more to take off from a stop...Whats the big Freakin deal? I suppose if you wanted more low end torque and to take off easier, maybe you should have gotten a Mustang 5.slow, or anyting w/ a V8 and an automatic...

That exhaust idea is pretty cool, but i think a 2.5" single is all an NA RX7 needs. ive got a 2.25" and thats a shade on the small side but its good for Streetability. but for a goal of 200 WHP on an NA. id suggest the Header and a 2.5" single, straight out the back.

Also, about the whole Mazda-engineering-for-most-horsepower thing. that might not be so true. They spent those millions of dollars and man hours to make something that was a compromise between max HP and american driveability. You do realize that Non-Turbo RX7s are basically an afterthought. They didnt spend as much time/money developing N/As as they did the turbo cars. The turbo cars are well engineered, and of course they are also a compromise between max HP and driveability. and then all the Emissions equipment are add-ons and not engineered to work great w/ the cars.

Anyways, keep up the good work. We just need to test these mods. We need a universal way to compare the results, and that would be on a Dynojet. Even though you feel it may not be the best thing in the world, the majority of the tuners still use it to verify the results. And once you have your #s to compare w/ the rest of the world, it will be easy to see how things work. Itll be like comparing a Jonathan Apple to a Golden Delicious Apple. But since your using the Gtech right now, and everyone else is using the Dynojet, its like comparing a Florida Orange to our Granny Smith apples...there really isnt a way to compare the results. Now if we were all using Florida Oranges to test our mods, it would be great...unfortunatly, we dont use oranges to test cars...

I want to try these mods on my 88 NA 5speed, but i dont want to try something that hasnt be (Dyno) proven yet. Ive already run a 15.2 in this car, spinning the tires all thru 1st gear and chirping 2nd gear at Norwalk Raceway Park. I bet if i could get this thing to hook out of the hole, i could lay down a 14.X run. And get this, My mods are a K&N air filter, TB mod, Gutted Precat, and a 2.25" single exhaust. My future upgrades included Pineapple Raceport sleeves, Intake manifold porting (this is where you could help, provided the gains are proven), and a Mazdatrix Fabricator Header. I have a feeling this car could be one of the quickest, stock-port, S4 N/A's... This car weighs in at ~2500 lbs w/o a driver, and FULL interior.

Anyways, all you need to do is baseline an S4/S5/T2. That should be easy since that requires no mods. And, Ted said he would pay for the expenses! Then, just put your custom intake on, and then run it again. It would be nice to run them back to back, but, it doesnt Have to be. And again, Ted said he will pay you back for it, just submit an expense report. I think Ted is good for his word.

Oh, and one last thing...You had said before that the FD intake manifold is VERY hard to improve upon. So, hows about this idea: Stop cutting up S4 intakes and grinding away at everything, and just get an S6/FD intake and find a way to fabricate an adaptor plate to mount it to a regular 13b NA motor. I know its possible.

Anyhow, keep up the good work sport.

Chris

 

Again...not to sound ignorent but what are the Pineapple Raceport sleeves? Where can we get them from? Thanks Again!