IMPORTANT: Carbon Build up...........
08-21-03, 11:09 PM
#1
brap brap
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IMPORTANT: Carbon Build up...........
Extactly DOES WHAT, to your engine? I need to know.. as I've got a big fight to deal with, with my mechanic.
But need to know some details on what it extactly does to your engine, etc.
But need to know some details on what it extactly does to your engine, etc.
08-21-03, 11:13 PM
#3
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um the same as it does to other engines, i.e. pistons, just builds up and causes detonation problems, however in a rotary pieces of carbon can brake off and damage a seal, destroy rotors and housings, stuff of that nature.
-Chris
p.s. who is your mechanic?? haha
-Chris
p.s. who is your mechanic?? haha
08-21-03, 11:26 PM
#4
brap brap
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Originally posted by chris-reedtn
um the same as it does to other engines, i.e. pistons, just builds up and causes detonation problems, however in a rotary pieces of carbon can brake off and damage a seal, destroy rotors and housings, stuff of that nature.
-Chris
p.s. who is your mechanic?? haha
um the same as it does to other engines, i.e. pistons, just builds up and causes detonation problems, however in a rotary pieces of carbon can brake off and damage a seal, destroy rotors and housings, stuff of that nature.
-Chris
p.s. who is your mechanic?? haha
They told me and CHARGED ME $57 to clean out the TBP because of "carbon build up".
I knew EXTACTLY what the problem was (My starter, as it still is.. because the car wouldn't start tonight after an AutoX meeting.) They claimed for revving the engine, was the cause of carbon build up, and why it locked up.
I knew something was fishy, and I knew they charged me $57 to "hit the starter" for it to work. I didn' twant to agrue, because my mother was there.
Anyhow, Why I'm asking is the fact that isn't it if your car, has a carbon build up / lock, it locks up completely, and you can't start it at all? Like.... you gotta tear down the engine inorder for it to run again?
BLAH! I hate people who have to lie, to lure their way into making MONEY. It's sad!!
08-21-03, 11:29 PM
#5
Originally posted by christi
I knew EXTACTLY what the problem was (My starter, as it still is.. because the car wouldn't start tonight after an AutoX meeting.) They claimed for revving the engine, was the cause of carbon build up, and why it locked up.
Anyhow, Why I'm asking is the fact that isn't it if your car, has a carbon build up / lock, it locks up completely, and you can't start it at all? Like.... you gotta tear down the engine inorder for it to run again?
I knew EXTACTLY what the problem was (My starter, as it still is.. because the car wouldn't start tonight after an AutoX meeting.) They claimed for revving the engine, was the cause of carbon build up, and why it locked up.
Anyhow, Why I'm asking is the fact that isn't it if your car, has a carbon build up / lock, it locks up completely, and you can't start it at all? Like.... you gotta tear down the engine inorder for it to run again?
If the car is carbon locked, it wouldnt start.
Jarrett
Last edited by J-Rat; 08-21-03 at 11:32 PM.
08-22-03, 12:38 AM
#7
brap brap
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Originally posted by Terrh
and normally there is quite abit of carbon in the combustion chambers.. remember: it's just carbon.. don't worry about it.
what is the starter doing? maybe we can fix this...
and normally there is quite abit of carbon in the combustion chambers.. remember: it's just carbon.. don't worry about it.
what is the starter doing? maybe we can fix this...
Nothing. Won't turn over. Go to crank it, won't start. Either gotta push start it - which last time took atleast 30-40mins, or hit the starter (like we did tonight).
So, hopefully she'll start with no problems tomorrow. Will be taking out the old starter, and putting the one from the parts car in. I hope this fixes it. If not, I'm not sure what else is wrong!
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08-22-03, 12:46 AM
#9
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Wish I could tell you that. I can't.
It actually started a few months ago, when one of the Rotary mechanics down in Fort Walton Beach said it was my starter, and gave me a starter for free....
Then, at start up, it would die after you started the car, and keep doing that until it decided "Ok, i'll run now." - but I think it's between the AFM and gunk building up that I've gotta clean out... otherwise, I really ever noticed anything to say atleast it was the starter... until it started to show.
It actually started a few months ago, when one of the Rotary mechanics down in Fort Walton Beach said it was my starter, and gave me a starter for free....
Then, at start up, it would die after you started the car, and keep doing that until it decided "Ok, i'll run now." - but I think it's between the AFM and gunk building up that I've gotta clean out... otherwise, I really ever noticed anything to say atleast it was the starter... until it started to show.
08-22-03, 01:53 AM
#10
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Would spraying the crap out of the intake help?
Would sparying the crap out of the intake manifold help?? I mean it will clean off alot of carbon. CHristin did you load test your battery?? Just wondering....
Terrh carbon is bad!!! Way bad!!! In some car it can case high combustion temp. because carbon traps heat producting more NOx or can also case detonation which is very bad. <--not only trying to be a ***. But a smart ***
If any one disagree please tell me!
Terrh carbon is bad!!! Way bad!!! In some car it can case high combustion temp. because carbon traps heat producting more NOx or can also case detonation which is very bad. <--not only trying to be a ***. But a smart ***
If any one disagree please tell me!
08-22-03, 02:33 AM
#11
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get a relay put in to increase voltage to the starter. Don't take it to a mechanic, take it to an auto electrician. Cost me $10 when my old wagon had the same problem.
08-22-03, 03:30 AM
#12
2nd gens are notoriously bad about having starter problems. I replaced starters, solenoids, rewired it and still always the same problem. There are a couple of things to look for. When you try to start it does a relay click somewhere? If it does, just keep trying over and over again until it starts. If it doesn't then try sticking the car in 1st then 2nd gears consecutively, leaving it in second as you try to start it. Most problems are in the summer since heat seems to play a role in whatever the problems are. I have never seen a 2nd gen that didn't have starter problems at some time or another.
Now on to the carbon issue. Tell your mechanic that he is a moron and is severely discrediting to the MCE certification testing system. If he works on Tonka trucks all day he might do something properly. Anyways, all rotaries build up carbon inside. Don't be naive enough to think you don't have any. You do. As long as the car is driven regularly, carbon won't lock your engine. Carbon gets in different areas of the engine. It gets on the faces of the rotors in the combustion recesses the easiest and everyone here has some there. It also gets in the seals and can cause them to stick. Revving the engine up to redline at least once everytime you drive it will help keep carbon deposits down. If you want to know how it gets there in the first place, you can blame it all on the oil. The oil metering system unfortunately uses engine oil. You would think that after decades of work Mazda work figure this out. Engine oil is not designed to mix and burn with gasoline yet this is what lubricates the internal seals. There is an oil that is designed for this purpose though. 2 cycle oil! Disabling the oil metering pump and premixing 2 cycle oil in the gas is the best thing for the engine. It lubricates the seals, burns cleanly, and mixes well with gas. 2 cycle oil unlike 4 cycle oil does not leave carbon deposits when burned. Luckily there is a fix for this. An aftermarket company out of Florida make an adapter that plumbs a seperate reservoir of 2 cycle oil to the factory oil metering system. Too bad Mazda hasn't done this. No more low engine oil after so many miles. Just watch the reservoir level. A simple sensor wired to a light would work great.
Now on to the carbon issue. Tell your mechanic that he is a moron and is severely discrediting to the MCE certification testing system. If he works on Tonka trucks all day he might do something properly. Anyways, all rotaries build up carbon inside. Don't be naive enough to think you don't have any. You do. As long as the car is driven regularly, carbon won't lock your engine. Carbon gets in different areas of the engine. It gets on the faces of the rotors in the combustion recesses the easiest and everyone here has some there. It also gets in the seals and can cause them to stick. Revving the engine up to redline at least once everytime you drive it will help keep carbon deposits down. If you want to know how it gets there in the first place, you can blame it all on the oil. The oil metering system unfortunately uses engine oil. You would think that after decades of work Mazda work figure this out. Engine oil is not designed to mix and burn with gasoline yet this is what lubricates the internal seals. There is an oil that is designed for this purpose though. 2 cycle oil! Disabling the oil metering pump and premixing 2 cycle oil in the gas is the best thing for the engine. It lubricates the seals, burns cleanly, and mixes well with gas. 2 cycle oil unlike 4 cycle oil does not leave carbon deposits when burned. Luckily there is a fix for this. An aftermarket company out of Florida make an adapter that plumbs a seperate reservoir of 2 cycle oil to the factory oil metering system. Too bad Mazda hasn't done this. No more low engine oil after so many miles. Just watch the reservoir level. A simple sensor wired to a light would work great.
08-22-03, 03:59 AM
#13
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08-22-03, 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by christi
Nothing. Won't turn over. Go to crank it, won't start. Either gotta push start it - which last time took atleast 30-40mins, or hit the starter (like we did tonight).
Nothing. Won't turn over. Go to crank it, won't start. Either gotta push start it - which last time took atleast 30-40mins, or hit the starter (like we did tonight).
I'd get a rebuilt and you should be good for quite awhile.
Also I'd go back to goodyear and ask for the manager and don't leave without your money back. They'll do it.
08-22-03, 03:55 PM
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having the same starter problem. i know it's internal, cuz i knew it was on its way out few weeks. almosts sounds like you've got a weak battery, know what i mean? then, after reaplcing the clutch, removing the starter in process, i would have to wack it a few times for it start. just got a new one from work today, will put that on this weekend.
this carbon build up thing. does using marvel mystery oil in both engine oil & fuel help clean up the carbon build up?
eddie
this carbon build up thing. does using marvel mystery oil in both engine oil & fuel help clean up the carbon build up?
eddie
08-22-03, 04:49 PM
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08-22-03, 08:49 PM
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For christi's original question:
It does help a little. MMO is pretty much just kerosene with some other snot mixed in. I've used in both my gas and my engine oil in the past without any problems.
I'm partial to hypntyz7's water trick myself:
Originally posted by Icemark
Heavy or excessive carbon build up is actually more from poor quality gas and oil being used in the motor, and while yes the rotary engines should be taken up to the redline regularly (not occasionally), there really has been no proof one way or the other that high RPMs burn off the carbon. Some carbon build up will happen in every motor, no matter what (unless massive water injection or the like is used).
the high RPM idea is more a keeping the apex seals loose and free issue.
When a rotary is babied (or as in your case, sits too much) gunk tends to build up in the seals, which doesn't let them flex like they should, or compress properly when they need to. So when it finaly does get started or run hard, the apex seal springs are not flexing like they should and the apex seal breaks or fail to seat properly
Now it is not unheard of to have a large chuck of carbon fall off a rotor face, and damage a seal, but IMO it is fairly rare. I am sure some of the more regular engine builders can either back me up on that or dispell that thought.
Heavy or excessive carbon build up is actually more from poor quality gas and oil being used in the motor, and while yes the rotary engines should be taken up to the redline regularly (not occasionally), there really has been no proof one way or the other that high RPMs burn off the carbon. Some carbon build up will happen in every motor, no matter what (unless massive water injection or the like is used).
the high RPM idea is more a keeping the apex seals loose and free issue.
When a rotary is babied (or as in your case, sits too much) gunk tends to build up in the seals, which doesn't let them flex like they should, or compress properly when they need to. So when it finaly does get started or run hard, the apex seal springs are not flexing like they should and the apex seal breaks or fail to seat properly
Now it is not unheard of to have a large chuck of carbon fall off a rotor face, and damage a seal, but IMO it is fairly rare. I am sure some of the more regular engine builders can either back me up on that or dispell that thought.
Originally posted by hypntyz7
Yeah dude, that engine is toast inside. There has been internal damage that is irreversible except by rebuild.
What generally happens here, despite the name, is that when the stock apex seals wear down enough, and you shut the engine down one day, one will actualy roll sideways partially out of the rotors tip, and wedge itself between it and the housing. When you try and move it, either way, you're generally driving a stuck seal farther into something it shouldnt be against, one way or another (rotor or rotorhousing). Obviously you're only doing more damage the more you try and move it. Not only do you have to rebuild, but youll also need a replacement rotor and rotorhousing in most cases.
Im NOT saying carbonlock doesnt exist...just that true carbon lock is much more rare than the condition described above, but both exhibit the same symptoms, and are both referred to as carbon lock.
Yeah dude, that engine is toast inside. There has been internal damage that is irreversible except by rebuild.
What generally happens here, despite the name, is that when the stock apex seals wear down enough, and you shut the engine down one day, one will actualy roll sideways partially out of the rotors tip, and wedge itself between it and the housing. When you try and move it, either way, you're generally driving a stuck seal farther into something it shouldnt be against, one way or another (rotor or rotorhousing). Obviously you're only doing more damage the more you try and move it. Not only do you have to rebuild, but youll also need a replacement rotor and rotorhousing in most cases.
Im NOT saying carbonlock doesnt exist...just that true carbon lock is much more rare than the condition described above, but both exhibit the same symptoms, and are both referred to as carbon lock.
Originally posted by fc3s_gtr
this carbon build up thing. does using marvel mystery oil in both engine oil & fuel help clean up the carbon build up?
this carbon build up thing. does using marvel mystery oil in both engine oil & fuel help clean up the carbon build up?
It does help a little. MMO is pretty much just kerosene with some other snot mixed in. I've used in both my gas and my engine oil in the past without any problems.
I'm partial to hypntyz7's water trick myself:
Originally posted by hypntyz7
Personally Im a fan of redlining any car I drive (that isnt being broken in from a rebuild or just had a used engine installed that week) once per driving session, be that once per day, once per week, or 5 times a day.
Now, about this maintenance debate. I am personally a fan of water injection. Not the type turbo guys run to keep intake temps down, but the type you do in your driveway as a maintenance procedure. Find a vacuum line or lines (teed together) that feed both the front and rear rotors, grab the throttle and rev the engine up to 4k or so, and dip the hose in a jug of water and let it drink. The water gets pulled in, hits the rotors and turns to steam, and takes carbon (slowly) with it.
If you're starting with an original/old used engine, Id do this 3-4 times weekly for about a month to clean as much as you can out. I'd also do 2-3 gallons per treatment. From then on, once per month. IF Im maintaining a rebuilt engine, I do this once per month or once per thousand miles to keep everything clean inside.
I have torn down engines where I had previously done this treatment, and they are always very clean, if not carbon-less altogether. The water treatment, along with straight premix, would result most likely in a rotary engine that lasted over 200k miles as the rule, rather than the exception.
Personally Im a fan of redlining any car I drive (that isnt being broken in from a rebuild or just had a used engine installed that week) once per driving session, be that once per day, once per week, or 5 times a day.
Now, about this maintenance debate. I am personally a fan of water injection. Not the type turbo guys run to keep intake temps down, but the type you do in your driveway as a maintenance procedure. Find a vacuum line or lines (teed together) that feed both the front and rear rotors, grab the throttle and rev the engine up to 4k or so, and dip the hose in a jug of water and let it drink. The water gets pulled in, hits the rotors and turns to steam, and takes carbon (slowly) with it.
If you're starting with an original/old used engine, Id do this 3-4 times weekly for about a month to clean as much as you can out. I'd also do 2-3 gallons per treatment. From then on, once per month. IF Im maintaining a rebuilt engine, I do this once per month or once per thousand miles to keep everything clean inside.
I have torn down engines where I had previously done this treatment, and they are always very clean, if not carbon-less altogether. The water treatment, along with straight premix, would result most likely in a rotary engine that lasted over 200k miles as the rule, rather than the exception.
08-23-03, 08:10 AM
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really? let it drink water, huh? what about a bottle of induction/ fuel sys. cleaner, directly fed through a vac source? 2-3 gal of water, that's gotta creat a lot of smoke. the induction cleaner would clean up the carbon deposits alot more easier and the process would take much less time than 2-3 gal of water. just a thought.
and i am a firm believer in MMO since i've seen a what was thought to be a locked up motor start after some MMO.
eddie
and i am a firm believer in MMO since i've seen a what was thought to be a locked up motor start after some MMO.
eddie
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