How Much Power Is Too Much Power.
How Much Power Is Too Much Power.
12-28-14, 06:14 PM
#2
The is no good answer to this question. Its completely dependent on you, the car, and the purpose. For myself, and wanting to track these cars I feel like 350ish whp is about the sweet spot. Not that more power would be a bad thing, but past that point a lot of the rest of the car really needs changed to cope with the added speed/heat/stress.
For a street car, a 300whp rx7 is fun but in a world now where the run of the mill camaro/mustang/etc is making well over 400 from the factory is not exactly all that great anymore. For some spirited canyon carving it would be great. You have a lot of straight roads and like acceleration.. you're going to be bored of it pretty quick.
For a street car, a 300whp rx7 is fun but in a world now where the run of the mill camaro/mustang/etc is making well over 400 from the factory is not exactly all that great anymore. For some spirited canyon carving it would be great. You have a lot of straight roads and like acceleration.. you're going to be bored of it pretty quick.
12-28-14, 08:46 PM
#4
I believe it is relevent to how the car is set up. With my NA, it is currently around 170whp, however after my ITB build I plan on being around the 220hp mark. Now I know that isn't incredible power, but in a car weighing just shy over 2600lb; it should be enough to be extremely fun to drive.
On the other hand, if you are a straight line acceleration kind of guy it wouldn't be sufficient. I had an 04 STi that was tuned to 400whp and it was fun, but it didn't offer the driving pleasures that my FC does.
On the other hand, if you are a straight line acceleration kind of guy it wouldn't be sufficient. I had an 04 STi that was tuned to 400whp and it was fun, but it didn't offer the driving pleasures that my FC does.
12-28-14, 09:00 PM
#5
My experience from 2 different turbo set-ups on my FC is-
You have "too much power" when you don't have enough power when you need it.
Basically, its that lag to spool that will get you into trouble as power produced from tipping in the gas is dependent partially on load, partially on engine rpm and partially on turbo rpm.
The better the turbo response (or better yet displacement like a V8) the easier it is to drive- even with far more power and torque.
You have "too much power" when you don't have enough power when you need it.
Basically, its that lag to spool that will get you into trouble as power produced from tipping in the gas is dependent partially on load, partially on engine rpm and partially on turbo rpm.
The better the turbo response (or better yet displacement like a V8) the easier it is to drive- even with far more power and torque.
12-28-14, 09:18 PM
#6
I agree with Blue TII.
I have 401 WHP with a LS V8. It is has a very wide powerband and is quicker than C6 Z06 Corvettes on the street and road course. I'm going to change my setup a bit to get more top end pull and it should make 450 WHP
I think 350-450 WHP is the sweet spot if you can get a usable powerband.
A 300 WHP FC with a properly sized turbo setup will beat up on any new V8 Mustang or Camaro.
I have 401 WHP with a LS V8. It is has a very wide powerband and is quicker than C6 Z06 Corvettes on the street and road course. I'm going to change my setup a bit to get more top end pull and it should make 450 WHP
I think 350-450 WHP is the sweet spot if you can get a usable powerband.
A 300 WHP FC with a properly sized turbo setup will beat up on any new V8 Mustang or Camaro.
12-29-14, 01:46 AM
#7
Retired Moderator, RIP
iTrader: (142)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Smiths Falls.(near Ottawa!.Mapquest IT!)
Posts: 25,581
Likes: 0
Received 131 Likes
on
114 Posts
It makes one hell of a grocery getter..
I built my car up,piece by piece and recently dyno'd at 357 at the wheels and frankly I am kind of pissed off that I have nowhere to really get onto it..
But..It has the ability to make you Crap your pants...haha!
(and it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on!..well..IF you don't crap your pants!)
I built my car up,piece by piece and recently dyno'd at 357 at the wheels and frankly I am kind of pissed off that I have nowhere to really get onto it..
But..It has the ability to make you Crap your pants...haha!
(and it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on!..well..IF you don't crap your pants!)
Trending Topics
12-29-14, 06:20 AM
#9
Full Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Seaside
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Purpose.
Purpose, Purpose and Purpose. Personally I'm all about the Touge and I know I could never get more than 400whp to the ground. And even then I'm only gonna build to 340whp at the most.
12-29-14, 09:09 AM
#10
Engine, Not Motor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 29,789
Likes: 0
Received 108 Likes
on
91 Posts
Most people here are driving their cars on the street and build them for the street, so that's the baseline I am going to use when I say that over 400HP is starting to get into the "too much" category.
After driving a 400+ HP FC since 2007 or so I can say that:
-400HP puts the FC fastness into the category of $100K+ supercars. And those supercars never seem to be at the intersection when I'm in my FC...yet oddly are always beside me when I drive my Insight. Seriously?!
-the FC is so light that getting that power to the ground on a reasonable tire becomes an issue. If you want tires that properly fit in the wheel wells or don't need to be replaced every season then this is going to be a problem.
-400HP is so fast that there is almost no where it can be used. In a car as light as the FC there are just very few opportunities, even less of them legal, to unleash 400+ HP. About the only time is merging onto a freeway but even then the speed limit and beyond comes up so quickly that it's over in a few seconds. That's a lot of fun, but you lose some of the joy of the feeling because it's so fleeting. About the only place where that power can be used is the drag strip but again, you better have the correct tires because otherwise you're just going to spin halfway down the track...but still lay down low 12s!
-Drivetrain parts will break. Even the TII transmission starts to feel strain after 400HP. My freshly rebuilt transmission started to whine after a few weeks. Sure, it will probably still last forever but it could break. And it's now the rear end where the breakage will happen. Plus there aren't a lot of clutches out there that are every day drivable which hold the power. If your leg gets used to it, the ACT HD is my recommendation.
-above 400HP, the powerband starts to get less linear and predictable. Newer turbos have gone a long way to fix this but there will always be hints of that peaky powerband. There comes a time when displacement starts to matter. Adding that 3rd or 4th rotor isn't necessarily always an option.
Add 100HP to that for 500HP and it makes everything worse but good luck getting traction. And at that point, reliability starts to become impacted because little things become large problems. Last season I experienced by first ever rotary engine blowing because a fuel injector became intermittent. And the diagnosis was driving home on only the front rotor because at the 500HP level things happen so fast there is no way to see a wonky AFR, EGT or hear detonation.
Now that I'm "old" I'd say that around 300HP is the ideal fun street level. Easy to achieve, reliable, and because the FC is light and nimble, still pretty damn fast. With a good tire that's low 12s. And a nice powerband for autox.
After driving a 400+ HP FC since 2007 or so I can say that:
-400HP puts the FC fastness into the category of $100K+ supercars. And those supercars never seem to be at the intersection when I'm in my FC...yet oddly are always beside me when I drive my Insight. Seriously?!
-the FC is so light that getting that power to the ground on a reasonable tire becomes an issue. If you want tires that properly fit in the wheel wells or don't need to be replaced every season then this is going to be a problem.
-400HP is so fast that there is almost no where it can be used. In a car as light as the FC there are just very few opportunities, even less of them legal, to unleash 400+ HP. About the only time is merging onto a freeway but even then the speed limit and beyond comes up so quickly that it's over in a few seconds. That's a lot of fun, but you lose some of the joy of the feeling because it's so fleeting. About the only place where that power can be used is the drag strip but again, you better have the correct tires because otherwise you're just going to spin halfway down the track...but still lay down low 12s!
-Drivetrain parts will break. Even the TII transmission starts to feel strain after 400HP. My freshly rebuilt transmission started to whine after a few weeks. Sure, it will probably still last forever but it could break. And it's now the rear end where the breakage will happen. Plus there aren't a lot of clutches out there that are every day drivable which hold the power. If your leg gets used to it, the ACT HD is my recommendation.
-above 400HP, the powerband starts to get less linear and predictable. Newer turbos have gone a long way to fix this but there will always be hints of that peaky powerband. There comes a time when displacement starts to matter. Adding that 3rd or 4th rotor isn't necessarily always an option.
Add 100HP to that for 500HP and it makes everything worse but good luck getting traction. And at that point, reliability starts to become impacted because little things become large problems. Last season I experienced by first ever rotary engine blowing because a fuel injector became intermittent. And the diagnosis was driving home on only the front rotor because at the 500HP level things happen so fast there is no way to see a wonky AFR, EGT or hear detonation.
Now that I'm "old" I'd say that around 300HP is the ideal fun street level. Easy to achieve, reliable, and because the FC is light and nimble, still pretty damn fast. With a good tire that's low 12s. And a nice powerband for autox.
12-29-14, 09:45 AM
#11
Did you say how much power you have right now?
Allow me to answer a slightly different question.
How much is enough power? Enough to provide very good acceleration. And even that depends. Since I'm used to driving cars in the 140-180hp range (the higher end being on a heavy beast), I'd be tripping ***** happy with 200-220hp at the flywheel, especially on my NA S4 FC.
Really, you'll get used to any power, and in a takeoff straight line, it will become no biggie. But for day to day driving, much less power than you think is sufficient.
So it depends what you're used to and what you really need.
edit: what Aaron said. Maybe I have been anti-spoiled with slow cars, which is why I'm happy with low power, or maybe people are just too focused on wanting 500hp street cars they can't really enjoy, as Aaron mentioned, kinda.
Allow me to answer a slightly different question.
How much is enough power? Enough to provide very good acceleration. And even that depends. Since I'm used to driving cars in the 140-180hp range (the higher end being on a heavy beast), I'd be tripping ***** happy with 200-220hp at the flywheel, especially on my NA S4 FC.
Really, you'll get used to any power, and in a takeoff straight line, it will become no biggie. But for day to day driving, much less power than you think is sufficient.
So it depends what you're used to and what you really need.
edit: what Aaron said. Maybe I have been anti-spoiled with slow cars, which is why I'm happy with low power, or maybe people are just too focused on wanting 500hp street cars they can't really enjoy, as Aaron mentioned, kinda.
12-29-14, 08:57 PM
#15
It will be close in speed to a standard Corvette, standard 911, pre 2013 Shelby Mustangs, CTS-Vs and ZL1 Camaros. Probably slightly quicker if I had to guess.
You'll be losing to GTRs, Z06 Vettes and turbo Porsches.
My car weighs 2650 lbs, and makes 400WHP.
A C6 Z06 makes 430ish WHP and weighs 3200 and my car is quicker. As long as it not from a dig, GTRs and Turbo Porsches are no problem. All that is dependent on having good tires. I have to run my NT01 track tires on the street to get enough traction.
My other car is a CTS-v making 500 WHP and my RX7 is notably faster but it is also like 1500lbs lighter
You'll be losing to GTRs, Z06 Vettes and turbo Porsches.
My car weighs 2650 lbs, and makes 400WHP.
A C6 Z06 makes 430ish WHP and weighs 3200 and my car is quicker. As long as it not from a dig, GTRs and Turbo Porsches are no problem. All that is dependent on having good tires. I have to run my NT01 track tires on the street to get enough traction.
My other car is a CTS-v making 500 WHP and my RX7 is notably faster but it is also like 1500lbs lighter
12-31-14, 10:52 AM
#16
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: https://www2.mazda.com/en/100th/
Posts: 30,844
Received 2,605 Likes
on
1,848 Posts
i notice that fun does not have much correlation to power. i've driven 500hp FD's that about as much fun, and just as embarrassing* as my brothers 85 volkswagon golf. i generally find fast cars are fun when you hit the gas and go straight, once, or twice.
i notice fun correlates more to throttle response and the shape of the power curve. throttle response is pretty obvious, i will add the example. my last T2, at the end had a 13B-T, S5 turbo, and Rb turbo back exhaust, and an RB steel flywheel, it only ran 7psi, but it had no lag, and it would hold 7psi all the way to redline. it was only maybe making 200-210rwhp, but it was FUN. i later put a cat in it, to cut down on the smell, power didn't change, but response went away. i sold it, because it wasn't fun to drive anymore.
shape of the power curve. this one is a bit tricky, but i find that a power curve that ascends is generally pretty great. the example is a bit weird, but my dad bought a Boxster shortly after i bought an FC convertible. the boxster has ~100hp more than the FC, and just driving around normally it really feels like if you step on it, its really going to rip your head off. of course when you do step on it, you find that you were shifting at the peak (around 3k), and its just flat after that. the FC on the other hand keeps feeling like its got more power the higher you rev it.
so the FC is actually more fun**, even though its way slower.
or if you like, my current turbo car is just running a stock S4 turbo, and i have a stock ECU and a chipped ECU. the stock ecu runs like 6psi or something and the chipped one runs 13psi** the chipped ecu makes the car quite fun, as it goes from 1psi @2500rpm to 13psi by 3200rpm, its quite a rush. as you'd expect, over 4500 or so its pretty flat, and the car isn't that fast, but its pretty exciting. with the stock ecu, i don't even like driving the thing.
*i am too old to drive down a normal street with the giant wing and 7 gauges on the dash...
** turning is fun too
*** its an FD ecu, so it had a boost control solenoid, it works!
i notice fun correlates more to throttle response and the shape of the power curve. throttle response is pretty obvious, i will add the example. my last T2, at the end had a 13B-T, S5 turbo, and Rb turbo back exhaust, and an RB steel flywheel, it only ran 7psi, but it had no lag, and it would hold 7psi all the way to redline. it was only maybe making 200-210rwhp, but it was FUN. i later put a cat in it, to cut down on the smell, power didn't change, but response went away. i sold it, because it wasn't fun to drive anymore.
shape of the power curve. this one is a bit tricky, but i find that a power curve that ascends is generally pretty great. the example is a bit weird, but my dad bought a Boxster shortly after i bought an FC convertible. the boxster has ~100hp more than the FC, and just driving around normally it really feels like if you step on it, its really going to rip your head off. of course when you do step on it, you find that you were shifting at the peak (around 3k), and its just flat after that. the FC on the other hand keeps feeling like its got more power the higher you rev it.
so the FC is actually more fun**, even though its way slower.
or if you like, my current turbo car is just running a stock S4 turbo, and i have a stock ECU and a chipped ECU. the stock ecu runs like 6psi or something and the chipped one runs 13psi** the chipped ecu makes the car quite fun, as it goes from 1psi @2500rpm to 13psi by 3200rpm, its quite a rush. as you'd expect, over 4500 or so its pretty flat, and the car isn't that fast, but its pretty exciting. with the stock ecu, i don't even like driving the thing.
*i am too old to drive down a normal street with the giant wing and 7 gauges on the dash...
** turning is fun too
*** its an FD ecu, so it had a boost control solenoid, it works!
12-31-14, 11:28 AM
#17
Personally anywhere from 275-350 is pretty fun on the FC. As pointed out earlier the higher you go the more you have to spend on the motor, things like studding, etc.
Also as pointed out earlier, it'll keep up with V8s. here is me at around 325wheel vs a c5 vette, 300C SRT and a 5.0 (5.0 jumped cause i ran him alone after this and it was pretty even when I brake boost)
Also as pointed out earlier, it'll keep up with V8s. here is me at around 325wheel vs a c5 vette, 300C SRT and a 5.0 (5.0 jumped cause i ran him alone after this and it was pretty even when I brake boost)
12-31-14, 06:24 PM
#19
I really can't believe how durable the TII drive train is ~300ftlbs torque.
I railed my 140,000 mile TII some 40,000+ miles more from 2001 to 2012 on the original drivetrain with just upgraded clutch, motor/trans/diff mounts and pinion snubber at 340-380rwhp and 300ftlbs torque.
Drag racing, auto-x, hillclimbs, flat shifting 2-3,3-4 all the time.
In 2006 I gave up on street tires and started dailying/racing on Dot-Rs (more drivetrain abusive from less wheel spin).
The trans bearings began to make noise the last couple years so it was no surprise when it stripped 3rd gear on a roll on.
So, I replaced my trans with a used JDM and then the turbo with a quicker spooling 420rwh/415ftlb one and still no problems.
Well, almost no problems- multiple laps racing on kart track I did weld my 6 puck to the ACT xtreme pressure plate (it must have been slipping a bit). Pumping the clutch and revving while rolling into the pits got it working though. Guess that is why they make the maxx xtreme PP and 3 pucks.
Anyways, in a 2,500lb TII the stock drivetrain is beastly reliable compared to other cars. TII FCs are little tanks.
I railed my 140,000 mile TII some 40,000+ miles more from 2001 to 2012 on the original drivetrain with just upgraded clutch, motor/trans/diff mounts and pinion snubber at 340-380rwhp and 300ftlbs torque.
Drag racing, auto-x, hillclimbs, flat shifting 2-3,3-4 all the time.
In 2006 I gave up on street tires and started dailying/racing on Dot-Rs (more drivetrain abusive from less wheel spin).
The trans bearings began to make noise the last couple years so it was no surprise when it stripped 3rd gear on a roll on.
So, I replaced my trans with a used JDM and then the turbo with a quicker spooling 420rwh/415ftlb one and still no problems.
Well, almost no problems- multiple laps racing on kart track I did weld my 6 puck to the ACT xtreme pressure plate (it must have been slipping a bit). Pumping the clutch and revving while rolling into the pits got it working though. Guess that is why they make the maxx xtreme PP and 3 pucks.
Anyways, in a 2,500lb TII the stock drivetrain is beastly reliable compared to other cars. TII FCs are little tanks.
12-31-14, 06:35 PM
#20
But i think the raw experience of a stripped light car sporting a 350hp ultra free revving low engine with manageable torque def adds plenty to the driving experience.
Like orange font i also have a ctsv, its also a beast, but its a 4300lb one. Totally different heavy car with tons of torque . Different driving experiences. Similar to having a turbo rotary versus a piston swapped one, put a piston engine in an FC and it really makes it a different car all together
12-31-14, 07:30 PM
#22
2500lb FC not too common,
But i think the raw experience of a stripped light car sporting a 350hp ultra free revving low engine with manageable torque def adds plenty to the driving experience.
Well, my 2,500lb TII isn't stripped as I race in a full interior class.
I just downgraded? upgraded? to base model interior/roof and lost like 150lbs of weight under the hood simplifying the turbo rotary.
As far as "manageable torque" exactly what I am trying to impress upon people that more torque is more manageable torque.
When you have torque you lose nothing backpedaling so you aren't so intent on pinning the throttle to the floor and trying to steer around the wheel spin.
I bet an LS V8 with more torque from idle to 3,000rpm than my EFR 7670 in an FC is even easier and more fun to drive.
I guess some people enjoy the thrill of traditional all or nothing turbo power.
Truthfully, if it was for 600+ hp and owning the freeway I might put up with it, but not for a measly 400hp.
But i think the raw experience of a stripped light car sporting a 350hp ultra free revving low engine with manageable torque def adds plenty to the driving experience.
Well, my 2,500lb TII isn't stripped as I race in a full interior class.
I just downgraded? upgraded? to base model interior/roof and lost like 150lbs of weight under the hood simplifying the turbo rotary.
As far as "manageable torque" exactly what I am trying to impress upon people that more torque is more manageable torque.
When you have torque you lose nothing backpedaling so you aren't so intent on pinning the throttle to the floor and trying to steer around the wheel spin.
I bet an LS V8 with more torque from idle to 3,000rpm than my EFR 7670 in an FC is even easier and more fun to drive.
I guess some people enjoy the thrill of traditional all or nothing turbo power.
Truthfully, if it was for 600+ hp and owning the freeway I might put up with it, but not for a measly 400hp.
12-31-14, 11:33 PM
#23
MECP Certified Installer
Before I had my new engine put in, it scored 220hp on the engine dyno. (engine dyno, not rear wheels!)
My engine is a stock 6 port NA with a very mild street port with no exhaust port baffles, stock ecu, stock air box....you'd have no idea it had anything ever done to it by looking under the hood.
If I where to guess, I am probably laying down 160hp on the ground and my car is super fun!. My old truck had 160hp and weighed the same (GMC S15 V6), but it was all down low and the engine was gasping for air above 3,000 rpm. I also have another car that has 140hp (Mazda 3)that feels like a go kart loaded down with sand bags.
I think j9fd3s pretty much nailed it in his post.
I also want to note (though many will disagree) that I can apply 300ft lbs of torque to something and not move it because just because you apply torque doesn't mean any work is going to be done, but just energy expended. Horsepower measures actual work performed.
The last paragraph is more for posterity than anything.
My engine is a stock 6 port NA with a very mild street port with no exhaust port baffles, stock ecu, stock air box....you'd have no idea it had anything ever done to it by looking under the hood.
If I where to guess, I am probably laying down 160hp on the ground and my car is super fun!. My old truck had 160hp and weighed the same (GMC S15 V6), but it was all down low and the engine was gasping for air above 3,000 rpm. I also have another car that has 140hp (Mazda 3)that feels like a go kart loaded down with sand bags.
I think j9fd3s pretty much nailed it in his post.
I also want to note (though many will disagree) that I can apply 300ft lbs of torque to something and not move it because just because you apply torque doesn't mean any work is going to be done, but just energy expended. Horsepower measures actual work performed.
The last paragraph is more for posterity than anything.
12-31-14, 11:58 PM
#24
I bet an LS V8 with more torque from idle to 3,000rpm than my EFR 7670 in an FC is even easier and more fun to drive.
I guess some people enjoy the thrill of traditional all or nothing turbo power.
Truthfully, if it was for 600+ hp and owning the freeway I might put up with it, but not for a measly 400hp.
I guess some people enjoy the thrill of traditional all or nothing turbo power.
Truthfully, if it was for 600+ hp and owning the freeway I might put up with it, but not for a measly 400hp.
01-01-15, 12:06 AM
#25
MECP Certified Installer
You need to drive one with an LS if you haven't already. It is just so much easier to drive. You don't have to be up on the wheel and in the right gear. It just takes off and pulls no matter the gear, and you aren't shifting all the time to keep it in the powerband.
Good video if you havent seen it.