dennis blackstone

i pulled the spark plugs when it would flood and they were drenched but nz thanks for your help in THIS flooding problem..1...changed plugs 2...changed fuel injectors 3...change transistor for bac 4...bingo changed battery terminals and rewired starter relay today no hot starts i must remember to post pics of my rewire

PvillKnight7

iTrader: (16)

clean the injectors

dennis blackstone

pvillknight7 thanks for the tip but i put brand knew ones and what resolved the hot start flooding issue was putting a rewire relay to the starter trigger wire then changing the battery terminals the starter spins so fast now that it has no chance to flood

RotaMan99

A what?

HAILERS

I'm guessing he means he got a new relay. He used the Start signal from the ignition switch to pull the new relay in. The contacts in the relay have one side connected to battery positive post and the other contact going to the starter solenoid.

So. He goes to START. The relay pulls in and the contacts *make* and feed battery voltage to the starter solenoid.

Why would one do that? Because of a marginal ignition switch. It may in stock form carry enough current to make the starter solenoid click, but not pull the the solenoid *in*. With the new relay, the ignition switch carrys enougn current to pull a little twinky relay in and keep it pulled in, and the closed contacts carry enough current directly from the battery positive post to pull the starter solenoid in.

In short............no more click, click, click when going to Start. Just go to start and the thing pulls in each and every time with no click, click, start b.s.

A relay is cheaper than a new ignition switch is the bottom line. And *whoever*, save the B.S about the click, click being corroded batt terminals, loose connections and other nonsense. Well, not all nonsense but common sense would tell someong to do that prior to doing the *new relay* step. It's assumed that one would have looked and checked the batt terminals, solenoid connections etc first.

Then again, maybe this RELAY he talks about is another thing alltogether. It's just my guess as to what he meant. He coulda meant a relay to interrupt the Start signal to the ECU? Maybe.

fastrotaries

[QUOTE=RETed;7397631]Haltech E8.
**** the stock ECU and that old, crappy wiring!


-Ted[/QUOTE


AMEN reverend. I personally have an E6K but, that comment was my driving force for getting something stand alone.

Cleaning the injectors and intake manifold. along with the TB. zip tie'ng everything solid, has not only worked for myself, but for several other friends.

HAILERS

See the bottom of page 6 or this thread. I just now saw/read that. Similar to what I suggested above, I think.

I've no idea what the post just above this one is talking about. Seems to be on the wrong thead.EK6????? Whats that got to do with squat.

RotaMan99

Ah. I may need to look into this further. Mine does this now and then.

dennis blackstone

i tested the crank at start up with a metre and the trigger wire was reading 7 volts so i read a couple of hailers posts which made sense to me too much fuel at start up so i figured in not very skilled at electronics i have a little idea how some things work so i noticed when i cranked the motor it would spin slow so i thought maybe if i beef up the trigger wire it would spin faster and stop that occasional clicking bingo i went to stop and shop went in got some fish came out 7min later started it up vrooooom so i went to a buddys house shut it off and it started right up my battery terminals was not the fix i just changed because i was going to do that along time ago when it cranks it cranks so powerfully and gives it no time to flood im no expert by anymeans i just wanted to solve this anoying probem mostly thanks to hailers and nzconvertable,,,,,,,

HAILERS

On a series four, there is a six socket plug laying under the trail coil assy area. IF you don't have theft protection, it will have a BLUE jumper plug on that connector.

Lay the BLUE jumper connector to the side.

IN the plug with the wires, one wire is Black/Green. That wire comes from the clutch interlock switch and has 12vdc when the clutch pedal is in and the key is to START.

You put that wire to the new relays positive terminal.

You get a piece of spare wire and connect one end to the new relays neg terminal and the other end to gnd. Your choice of where the gnd is. Any bolt with the paint cleaned off the mating surface will do.

So now you have a relay that will pull in anytime you go to start and dump the clutch pedal.

So to make the starter solenoid work, you find the black/white wire in that six socket connector. That wire goes directly to the starter solenoid. You put it on one of the relay pins that goes to an open contact in the relay. Then all that is left is to run a wire from the engine fuse box to the relays other pin. The other pin that will feed the black/white wire when the relay pulls in. You ought to buy a fuse to go inbetween this wire and the engine fuse box.

So now you go to Start. The new relay closes and now the black/white wire will make contact with the new wire going to the engine fuse box and the starter solenoid will pull in each and every time with no click, click, click, varrrooom. Click, click sucks. Relays cost, what? Three bucks???

That six socket plug mentioned above is for the Starter Cut Relay used on THEFT PROTECTION vehicles. On those cars there should be a relay attached to that plug and if memory serves that relay is bolted to the chassis near the Main Relay.

On non theft protected vechicles there is no relay at all. Only the six socket plug with a BLUE jumper plug attached to it. Located near or under the trail coil assy.

The new relay can be attached to the bulkhead near the brake booster area or whereever you damn welll please.

dennis blackstone

excellant write up hailer

RotaMan99

So basically you are taking the load off the ignition switch and only using the IGN SW to energize the relay?

dennis blackstone

as you can see in the pic i have the black and white wire to #86 on the relay on #85 i have the ground to the body #30 to the battery #87 to the starter that looking at a $3 relay from autozone as well as eliminating my flooding it eliminated the clicking at the same time i changed my battery terminals the other ones were shot now my engine cranks over so fast it does not get chance to flood by using hailers theory that there is too much fuel at start up and our starters cranking so slow it gives it a chance to flood now i did the bac changed the injectos knew plugs a couple of weeks a go helped a little but this $3 setup works every time renewing all them components on a 20 year old car helped let me tell you how gooood it feels to have confidence that my car will start now thanks guys for sticking wih me through the frustration it was easier rebuilding my engine than figuring this out lol ...

The RX-7 Flooding Problem

An oil seal (Apex seal) is used where the rotor contacts the walls of the burning chamber. This seal is critical to provide the necessary compression for proper operation. Oil is injected into the burning chamber when the car first starts, and during high RPM, to help extend the lifetime of these seals. This results in engines that can last 180,000 miles (or so it is said).


The problem: If the engine ever floods the excess gas can wash the oil seal away. This makes it impossible for the engine to develop the compression necessary to start. The solution described below involves squirting automatic transmission fluid into the burning chamber to temporarily restore the seal. Once the car starts, the oil needed by the seals will be replenished via the normal operation of the engine.

Restarting When Flooded

Remove spark plugs.
Squirt automatic transmission fluid into burning chamber with large ¾" syringe.
Install new spark plugs and reconnect plug wires. Front rotor (T1, L1) has white bands on plug wires. Trailing plugs (T1, T2), on top, have blue plug wires.
Start! Keep cranking (w/ jump-start, if needed). Press accelerator to floor at times.
This procedure will work, but when engine starts the burning ATF will smoke out half a city block…


Reasons Why Starting Problems Occur

Crusted spark plugs *** Most common! ***
Start, drive 5 feet, and shut off… NEVER DO THIS!
Weak battery
Bad plug wires
Bad timing
Stop cranking prematurely, when other factors contribute.

when it happened to me in the past i used 20w 50 in the holes

RotaMan99

Better off using motor oil or 2 stroke.

I do this Sometimes... No problems for me. I suppose that is because I have 115+ compression numbers.

HAILERS

Someone above used a couple of words. Low compression. Low compression can cause a low compression engine to be hard to start and flood. The amount of fuel delivered during START is the same for a HIGH compression engine as a LOW compression engine.

So, you realize that less fuel is required for a LOW compression engine so it won't flood during start. How to do this? Mazda made no adjustment to control the fuel being delivered during START. But you can yourself make an adjustment that will guarantee less fuel being delivered. Remove the start signal that goes to the ECU and the internal start map will be ignored. Now the AFM will be used for fuel delivery during start. I've watched the delivery time in ms b/t the afm being used during start and compared it with the delivery time in ms using the ECU internal start map. HUGE difference in favor of the low compression engine. Engine will not flood if this start signal is ignored.

The downside is that not enough fuel will be delivered using the afm vs the intermal map on a COLD engine start. This can be overcome. Either with a common switch( on/off) or by installing a water temp sensing circuit in line with the Start signal, so it will not make a circuit when the engine is hot but will whne the engine is cold.

Using a water temp sensing circuit in line with the start signal wire means to never having to use a switch to control the fuel during start. I used a kit from JAYCAR. Called a Simple Voltage Switch. Some soldering required. Some adjustment required to hit the right temps to switch it on off. RTEK now has a similar circuit in their new 2.1 version. See Digital Tunings'site to see how it works.

I wrote about this in the past. A search using the term Chart and Hailers will find it.......sooner or much later.

daved70

When ever my car floods i pull the yellow plug under the dash and crank it, once it starts to catch i plug it back in and it starts up right away.

dennis blackstone

ive been waiting for the rtec 2.1 is it good for a bnr stage 2 turbo my flooding and hotstarts are non exsistant after i rewired the trigger wire with a $3 relay ive been fighting this hotstart flooding forever thanks to hailers and his theory helped out and the link to the rx8 forum for flooding

LogicFoxX

iTrader: (2)

Fixed my flooding problem caused by a poor battery, replaced with sodium filled gel type, starts on first turn over =)

Still working on my excessive rich problem though.

dennis blackstone

nice logicfoxx thats another cause, i changed my battery terminals to when i did my rewire i wanted a fast crank,,, flooding fixed

do you have a bigger fuel pump?

LogicFoxX

iTrader: (2)

If you mean me, nah, good thing too, last thing I want to worry about is fuel spraying everywhere because a fuel pump was incorrectly installed. (I have some contending arguements with my previous owner such as half the oil pan screws stripped out, oil metering pump spliced and capped off, cracked heater core, leaking ac condenser, frayed and shorted 12 v wiring jobs, etc.)

dennis blackstone

Symptoms:

Engine cranks (turns over) but does not fire, or fires briefly and dies immediately. After several attempts, gasoline fumes may threaten to overwhelm operator.
Solution: "Clear" engine of excess gasoline.
Tools Necessary: In extreme cases, you'll need

Spark-plug wrench and socket
20W-50 Motor Oil
Background:
This is one of those things which seems to happen very rarely, except on high-mileage cars or other cars which (for some other reason) have low compression.

It also seems to happen only when you're either showing your car to a friend, or in a hurry to get somewhere.

It's happened to my car exactly twice. The first time, I was on the way to the airport to drop someone off. I don't think he was overly impressed with the way my car blew gas fumes everywhere, and refused to start. After I got back from the airport (2 hours later), the car started fine.

The second time, I was about to go out and get some food, the car completely refused to start. It sat for 2 days, unmoving, and with an increasingly dead battery as I got more and more frustrated with it. It was under these circumstances that I was forced to use Method 3, detailed below.

By the way, dealers have been known to charge more than $200 (plus your inconvenience, and potential towing fees for performing the procedures given below. Hopefully, you can avoid this fate.)

This situation is generally caused by one of two things, either starting a cold engine, running for a brief period (less than a minute or so), and then shutting it off, or leaky fuel injectors (the pressure in the fuel line forces gas past the injector, into the rotor chambers, and washing away the oil which forms the actual seal between the rotor chambers, thus no compression). The fix for the first situation is easy...don't do that. The fix for the second situation is not so easy, you either have to replace the injectors (mega-$$$$), or get a little 'hack' from Mazdatrix which is a H-pipe between the two fuel rails. This allows the fuel pressure to leak back from the feed line to the return line SLOWLY, reducing the leakage into the chambers. (Of course, for you performance nuts, note that this solution does decrease your overall fuel pressure.)

Alternatively, it's been suggested on the list (and specifically mentioned to me by Scott of Maztech in Florida), that it's possible to install an inline-switch controlling the fuel pump. This switch will then serve two functions, that of allowing you to turn off the fuel pump when the car floods, so that you don't have to get out and pull the EGI fuse. In addition, if the switch is well hidden, it can serve as an anti-theft device as well (just turn the switch off when away from the car, and unless the thief finds the switch, they won't be able to drive the car anywhere.

Keep in mind that if you try these different techniques in order, you'll be slowly running down your battery. It's suggested that you keep a healthy car around while doing these, otherwise you may end up with a flooded car with a dead battery. This document is written primarily with second generation cars in mind, however the same techniques are applicable to fuel-injected first generation cars, and third generation cars, as well. Most third generation cars will not have enough miles on them to develop these sorts of problems yet, though.

In all cases listed below, the car is likely to run very poorly and blow a LOT of smoke when you get it started. When it coughs and sputters to life, you'll probably need to 'do a little dance' on the accelerator to keep it from dying.

Check your spark plugs if your car floods often...they tend to get fouled, which can also help to make your engine unhappy, making the problem happen even more frequently.

The various Methods listed below are in order of inconvenience, and increasing efficacy. Hopefully, you won't need more than Method 3.

Method 1: Wait and see...
If you're not in a particular hurry to get anywhere (and your car does not make a regular habit of flooding you out), waiting an hour or two before trying to crank the car will sometimes do the trick. The reason this works is that this gives enough time for some of the gasoline to drain or evaporate away. Unfortunately, if your car is seriously flooded, this method will probably not work, or take so long as to make you think your car's permanently dead. Which brings us to...

Method 2: Step on it!
Although somewhat counterintuitive, the RX-7's ECU (Engine Control Unit) includes a bit of logic which actually cuts fuel flow when the accelerator is depressed all the way down while the engine is being cranked. (This is definitely the case in 88.5 and greater versions of the ECU. It's not clear that this 'feature' exists in older cars, however I have been able to start my 1987 car using this method, however, to err on the side of conservatism, you may want to skip directly to Step 3 if you own an 86-88.5 car, as if this feature doesn't exist, you'll end up flooding the car worse!). However, if this doesn't work, you'll then want to try...

Method 3: Pull the fuse
Under the hood, on the driver's side of the car (assuming you have a U.S.-spec or other LHD car), you'll find an oblong fusebox, labeled with its contents. The one you're interested in is labeled "EGI Pump" or "EGI Inj". (These are not the same fuses, but either will work) Pull this fuse out, and crank the car for a few seconds (probably 4-5 times at 4 or 5 seconds each time.) Then, get back in the car and try to start it. It's probably worth trying this procedure a few times (like 4 or 5) before moving on to Method 4.

Note: If you get the car started after using this process, the tachometer likes to behave particularly dead. Shutting the car off (after it's run for a while to clear all the gas from the combustion chambers, and then restarting it will bring it back to life.)

Second note: LK Swift has mentioned to me that 1st generation fuel-injected cars have a 'jumper wire' (or fusible link) which performs the same function as does the EGI Pump fuse. Pulling this fuse, and then cranking the engine will perform the same function as the above procedure.

Method 4: Pull the spark plugs
If the preceding methods don't work in getting your car started, then you probably have a low-compression condition in your engine. You'll need to pull the spark plugs out (you can probably get away with just pulling the leading ones), stuffing rags in the holes, and then cranking the engine for a bit. (The rags are simply to catch the gasoline, to avoid flinging it all over the engine compartment. Don't stuff them too far in the holes, just enough to hold the rags to crank the engine. Of course, take the proper precautions when working around exposed gasoline!) When this is finished, put them back in, and try to fire the engine up again.

If the car still resists starting at this point, you're going to break out the heavy guns, which is...

Method 5: Put oil in the engine
The objective of this part of the exercise is to get a viscous liquid into the engine. First generation cars may simply pour either Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) or 20W-50 motor oil into the carburetor, while owners of subsequent cars may need to get a bit more creative. On 2nd generation cars, there are 2 capped lines atop the engine housing which lead directly into each chamber. (See below for Felix Miata's description of these ports). These may be used for introducing fluid into the engine. Alternately, you can remove the spark plugs again, and get the liquid into the chambers through these openings.

Either way, you may want to crank the engine a bit with the EGI fuse (or fuel pump fusible link pulled) to spread the liquid around a bit, before trying to start the car. Then, stand back to avoid huge clouds of blue smoke.

(The theory here is to use the relatively heavy motor oil to help the seals make compression against the rotor housings.) Other Rotary acolytes advocate the use of Automatic Transmission Fluid for this process. The theory here is that this thick fluid also has caustic properties, allowing it to 'eat away' at carbon deposits which may accumulate on the apex seals, allowing them to move more freely, and possibly free stuck seals (Marvel's Mystery Oil has also been reported to be a good oil to use for both of these purposes). Your mileage may vary. However, I've heard of more than one engine which made a miraculous recovery after this (relatively harsh) treatment. It's worth mentioning, though, that I believe that motor oil seems to be a better choice than ATF, as motor oil is supposed to be in the combustion chambers, and is probably easier on the exhaust system (read: catalytic converter) then burning ATF.

Felix Miata, a fellow rotorhead, recommends using ATF, suggesting that the relatively light oil is easier to purge from the system once the engine is started. In addition, he mentions that:

"On non-turbo 2 gen the intake has two plugged vacuum ports pointed up, one to front rotor & one to rear. Connect squirt oiler to these with hose to more easily inject oil into intake manifold (I suspect this is one of their intended uses). Works just as good as injecting into plug holes & much easier, almost as easy as on 12A, which has carb throats to pour into."
Method 6: Push/Pull Starting
Warning: This method is to be considered only as a last resort. Not only is push-starting the car specifically forbidden by the owner's manual, but this procedure could be considered highly dangerous, as well. I'm listing this method primarily for completeness' sake, after Steve Warner (a fellow RX-7 owner) sent me a great story on what he did to get his car started on a cold day in January.

The premise to getting the car started under these conditions is basically, get the car up to speed, putting the car in gear, and then dropping the clutch, forcing the motor to turn far faster than it normally would from the starter motor. People have had good experience by pulling the car behind a (working) car, or letting the car roll down a hill to get the car moving at a high enough velocity.

Again, if you have to resort to this method, please be careful! The potential for damage (to your car, your body, the tree, someone else's car...) is quite high. I don't recommend using this method unless you really know what you're doing. (I take no responsibility for what might happen to you if you decide to try this method and blow up your car, run over your cat, etc., etc., blah blah...)

Felix Miata has some useful input on this method:

"Required vehicle speed in most cases is surprisingly low. Use 2nd gear, not 1st. When it starts, depress clutch & go back to 1st if necessary. If it happens to you in a parking lot with a little slope, one can often get sufficient speed with only two feet (without additional help) to get it to start. #6 applies to any flooded rotary. Pull starting is considerably more dangerous than push starting. A lurch when it starts can quickly use up the tow slack & damage both cars."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have to resort to methods four, five or six, it may make sense for you to consider getting the aforementioned H-pipe, or the fuel-pump cutoff switch. At the very least, you should probably have the compression in your motor tested, to see how close you are to needing a rebuild. (For reference, 100 lb/sq.in is considered good compression, 80 lb/sq.in is considered marginal. The equivalent bar measurements would be approximately 7 bar being good, 6 being marginal).

RotaMan99

good writeup.

Its been clear for years. When opening the throttle, you are introducing more air into the chamber helping to raise the compression and getting a better starting AFR.

Sounds like it could be a problem with your car? I have done this before many times with my old engine and never had that issue.

dennis blackstone

mine doesent flood any more due to the fact that i rewired the trigger wire and for good measure i changed the battery terminals no more hotstart no more flooding it cranks so fast now it doesent have a chance to flood....that write up is for newbies who are frustrated with flooding hailers & nzconvertable has some good insight on this problem....the reason i started this thread was for new rx7 owners who have no clue on this problem ...and any input from members to help resolve this problem would be appreciated ....it just sucks getting stuck

NZConvertible

There is no extra oil injected during starting. RPM and engine load are at their lowest, so in fact less oil is injected during cranking than at any other time. The oil remaining on the chamber surfaces from the last time the engine was run is sufficient for starting a healthy engine.

Why oh why do people keep saying to use ATF? What possible reason could there be for not replacing the missing engine oil with more engine oil? How many noobs have read web pages and forum posts like this and gone out and bought a new bottle of otherwise-useless ATF to restart their engine, when the engine oil that every rotary owner should have sitting on their garage shelf would've worked perfectly?

This is the Worst Case Scenario. Most flooded engines do not need the spark plugs removed or oil squirted in. That should only be done after several failed attempts are clearing the flooding by disabling the fuel, opening the throttle and cranking for 5-10 seconds.

And if is is required, only the leading (lower) spark plugs should be removed. The trailing plug holes are much smaller, so having them open achieves little extra. And if you try to squirt oil through them, you will achieve nothing but a big mess in your engine bay...

dennis blackstone

i understand what your saying nzconvertable in the past i only use 20w50 oil but now i never flood after my rewire