86B

I have a friend that just bought a new E46 M3 and he always brags about it and this and that. How it's the best car in the world and not even a Porche 911 turbo can beat it and talks about how the T2 is crap.
So i was wondering would a stock T2 have any chance aginst a M3? I know for sure i would lose but how much would i lose by? I don't want to try to figure it out and be the big loser. What do you guys think?
Also what kinds of mod would i have to do to make my T2 beat an M3? I really want to shut his big mouth for good. He talks **** about my T2 all the time.
Thanks~

Silkworm

Not a chance in hell.. Sorry.

PaulC

tmak26b

go spend 10K on your car to shut him up

seveninphilly

iTrader: (7)

How good of a driver is he??

rx7_turbo2

A stock T2 has no chance in hell, but you could probably mod it for less than 10 grand and have a shot.

86B

Spending 10k just to shut up my friend. Damn that's too much.. haha~
well he is not really a good driver.. is he 18 or 19 and it's his first car. He got the car after he got his G2.
Anyways thanks for the help guys~

tmak26b

a bad driver can still beat you

NZConvertible

Well your friend is right and wrong. Tell him his M3 can be beaten (just) by a 911 Carrera and a 911 Turbo will monster him. As for your car, jeez get a dose of reality. Compared to an M3, the T2 is ****. It kills a T2 every area. You really need to read a few car mags...

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

Hmm let me see your comparing a 15yr old car that sells for around $3-6K to a new 333hp $50K M3. Everything is relative, and the TII is crap relative to the M3.

IIRC the M3 will run mid-low 13's. Want your TII to run that, simple. Strip off the ac, ps, cruise, emissions, heater, spare, jack, stereo, etc. You can leave the seats and interior, add downpipe, cone filter, upgrade clutch and run with him in the 1/4 mile. We ran a bunch of 13.4s for $2002 in a 87 TII. His car might be slightly faster, but he won't pull you by much. That would be embarrassing.

If you want to beat that M3 in any other catagory than drags your gonna be spending a LOT OF $$$. Even then you'll have a race car and he'll have a completely stock streetable car that is 100% emissions legal with warranty that is quiet, smooth, etc.

Dude the new M3 will put the hurt on a stock FD no problem, the TII is a really great performer for the $$ but it isn't in the same league.

Jeff

RETed

Yep, 330+hp is going to kill you unless you got at least a full T04 turbo upgrade.&nbsp He's talking trash cause he can back it up.&nbsp Now, if you're talking twisties, you might have a chance if you can drive better than he does, but the 100+hp advantage (over stock FC turbo) is a serious disadvantage to you...


-Ted

RotaryMiata

Amen to that!

I totally disagree.

Look, everytime this guy talks trash about your 7, just look at him and laugh saying (all too loudly) "You paid how much!?!?" And walk away shaking your head.

OK, you want to shut his mouth -- this we all understand. However, I think you should compare apples to apples here.

Now I just happen to like apples, and I think $50,000 is enough to make a garage full of TII's that will put fear and respect into his heart -- EVEN IN THE TURNS. If this guy's got nothing better to do than rag on a 15yr old car, just laugh your way to the bank... "You'll be paying on that for HOW many years?"

Hell, I'm laughing just thinking about it!!!

****, I'd stick his a$$ with my old Miata, and my total investment was $8000, including the car! Who'd be laughing then???

2DoritosOnAStick

How to beat him easily:

-Have a custom 3" exhaust welded from the turbo back to an N1 or similar muffler: $150-200 for exhaust + cost of muffler

-Racing Beat FCD: ~89

-Custom water/alcohol injection setup (do a search), RICE RACING runs 1cc of water per 8.66cc of actual fuel rail flow. Also setup an intercooler sprayer if you can. Wire the sprayer to a switch, and spray when you aren't moving or at low speeds: Around 100-250 depending on components/quality, and complexity of the system

-Pull your turbo off and port the wastegate and the inlet to the turbine housing: FREE

- DIY or other manual boost controller: ~20-50

-Used additional injector controller and Xcc injectors. Plumb the additionals into the secondary intake runners. 720s are good, but if you plan on upgrading more get 1300cc. ~300 for the AIC. ~75x2 for injectors. (NOTE: AIC can be used to fuel an upgraded turbo to make over 400rwhp with the AFM and stock ECU in place! Possibly more, but these are proven numbers)

-EGT and/or A/F guage. You need SOME indication to tune with. People will tell you just how useless these can be with tuning, but they are wrong. For fine tuning yes, but they can give a good indication of where to add/subtract fuel UNDER WOT. If you get an A/F guage, get a greddy, or search for the DIY wideband setup (which is awesome, btw). The greddy uses a more accurate 4-wire sensor, and gives you a needle reading of your actual a/f (instead of the autometer lights of death). You want around 11.5-11.8:1 a/f under WOT. EGTs are great, again I like greddy for guages... 850 deg C is a good number, 900 for a bit more power. Price: No clue, I get mine cheap

Walbaro 255lph pump, re-wire, and fuel filter: $139+30

Custom TID + filter: ~35 for filter, ~25 for AFM adapter (89-91 don't apply), piping and couplings ~15

Slight weight reduction: Removing the old exhaust and putting a straight exhaust can remove around 40-50 lbs alone. Spare tire is ~20-25lbs. The rest is a sacrifice you have to decide on. All A/C components together is probably around 30 lbs, PS pump 20 lbs, air pump 8 lbs. All estimates...

Total: ~1709, (including BOTH EGT and A/F guages at www.rx7store.net prices)

Good optionals: A pair of drag wheels and drag radials. You should be able to fit 285s in the back no problem, and wheels and tires are cheap, just make sure you get the right offset if you get wide rims. Also, a 6-puck and 17lbs steal flywheel are great. You have to learn how to launch by dropping the clutch (throttle control)

With this setup running 15 psi, with proper water injection/intercooler spray, good EGTs, and a good launch, you could see 112-114 traps, and mid-low 12's. I'm sure I'll get people arguing with me on this, but most people here have NO CLUE how to get a car to run good ETs for cheap. Driver and tuning is key, but this is a good goal for a stock turbo IMO.

I am definately not for compressor upgrades on the stock turbo. It will cost you too much for the benefits you gain, and your engine will still be choked on the exhaust side. Get a full T04 family upgrade will a large exhaust housing if you do upgrade the turbo.

If you want more info, ask, I'll try to answer questions. Oh yeah... Sorry about the pricing guesses, I get nearly everything, including stock parts at cost.

NZConvertible

Let's try and look beyond straight line performance for one minute. So far everyone (except a couple of ya) haven't mentioned any of the other things you get when you hand your coins to Mr. BMW. Things like amazing handling and grip, very low NVH (noise, vibration and harshness), low fuel milage, BMW reliability, a warrenty, actual luxury, lots of cool electrical gadgets, the list could go on and on. Now you may not actually want all of these, but how much would you need to spend to get an FC match an M3 in all these aspects? Who's laughing now? You pay all that money for many other resons than just drag racing...

Funklord

money talks. he spent more on his car, so naturally its faster. im quite sure that if you spent $50k on your car, you could be running 9's (with that kind of cash you could try a 20B on for size) how the hell does someone who is 18 or 19 afford a $50k car? did he win the lottery, or did his daddy buy it for him?

2DoritosOnAStick

I agree to an extent. This guy who is laughing about how fast his car is, probably would not even mention it's refinement, handling, and world class braking unless he got beat. I've driven my brother's E36 M3, and it is the ULTIMATE daily driver. It feels connected to the road, much like RX-7s. It handles amazing, it has good torque, and a powerband that keeps pulling harder. The interior is just amazing. Grippy adjustable leather seats, everything well laid out and comfortable... Nice stiff but not too stiff suspension. In a straight line my T2 is much faster, in the corners on 225 tires and stock old suspension, my car is a joke comparitively. But with 285s on the rear and 265s on the front, with a mild shock and spring upgrade, there would be no competition.

Who cares?

The bottom line is the M3 is in a completely separate class... It is not a race car, it's a touring car. I've seen heavily modified M3s on the track and they just can't hack it with the likes of modified rx-7s, supras, and vettes on a road course. They sit too tall, and have too narrow a wheelbase. Power wise they are a joke compared to modified cars. E36s can run a "small" amount of boost, but I've yet to see an E46 turbo (hell how do you turbo a 13:1 CR)? All in all they are amazing cars, and I love BMW quality (I own one going on 200k miles).

I still think it would be fun to shut him up

tmak26b

My car would have BMW's reliability as soon as I stop replacing those damn brake calipers

Barwick

I just got a new perspective on this one.. I raced a new M3 yesterday here in Warren, MI. My car is in my sig (TurboII 5 lbs boost, 13.75 @ 104.8 mph).

We were going South on Mound road, I was making a turnaround at a light, he was coming past the light, we both hit it once we're about to the entrance ramp to 696 and head West (it's a long curve), get on 696 West and proceed to do 110 around a highway curve with no other lane to go into, take it to 120 and slow back down.

The whole time I was in his lane, behind him, and he was very very slowly pulling farther ahead. Not too bad for a car that cost me $3k by the time it's all said and done.

Liquid Anarchy

iTrader: (2)

I think you ment to say...

"Your Mommy and Daddy paid how much!?!?"

Sorry, I know of NO 18/19y.o.'s who can afford a new M3 w/o some SERIOUS help from the parents. @ that age (my age) you wouldn't even be considered for the loan...

ERAUMAZDA

He's an *******. He has money and you don't. Can you compare a computer of 2003 to 1988. Hells no. If you want to spank him you have to invest in killing him.

Dougster

The M3's are great cars...The T2's are great cars in their own right, but as has been mentioned, not in the same class...Its easy to mod the T'2s cheap though...get it running to safe fuel/boost levels and make sure the suspension is very tight and pocket the rest!
Have fun!

litlred515

yea you would definetly get killed by an M3 but your friend wouldn't touch a 911 turbo, now the 911 carrera on the other hand he would beable to take but not by much.

Relisys190

iTrader: (4)

now... match the T2 against an E30 M3 (1988ish) and you would spank that German Technology. no questions. My friend has a bone stock e30 M3.. pretty quick little car, has great handeling capability's and is an all around good performance car. Sad thing is... My n/a FC kept up with him, as a matter of fact, we never left each other's door's... than we went down the twisties and being an undeveloped/unexperienced driver he had a hard time keeping up with my FC.. and i've got bad suspension

-Markus

"E46 no way... E30... sure.. no prob. Our cars are only getting older, dont try and compare with a $50,000 sports car from the 2000 era"

MRey

wow the rx7 must be a great handling car then or it maybe cuz your good driver =P

RacerJason

iTrader: (5)

The E46 M3 will humble 95% of the vehicles on the road today. Having been yanked around Mid-Ohio in a M3 that was lapping day prepared I can honestly say it gobbles corners like no other car I've been in (McLaren F1, 360 Modena, etc.). You can't compare apples to oranges. I'm a TII owner but I know that vehicles of this level require only true admiration.

Ni5mo180SX

Im entirely sure I would ream a E46 M3 with my FC.