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To those that keep bringing up the "it takes mechanical energy to make electrical energy:
Unless you have to upgrade your alternator, it will have the same resistance or "mechanical energy" required to turn no matter how much current you attempt to draw off of it.
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why do you think mazda added another solenoid to assist idle for "electrical loads"?
when my black magic fan kicks on my idle drops by 100 RPMs, and that is only 25 AMPs max current draw. the alternator only generates mechanical load when needed to generate electricity. now figure an e-fan and e-water pump in addition to running the rest of the cars electrical system and you can easily approach the current capacity of the alternator which is 4 times what my one fan draws(since you would need an FD alt. to power the now many more electrical loads, FD alt is 100 amps).
for the dyno graph showing the difference between an e-fan and thermo mechanical fan, i would like to know that the fan was in fact ON while the dyno pull was being made... keeping the fan off defeats the purpose of comparing the 2, you may as well just leave the e-fan off the car as well since when it isn't running there is no load being transferred.
To those that keep bringing up the "it takes mechanical energy to make electrical energy:
Unless you have to upgrade your alternator, it will have the same resistance or "mechanical energy" required to turn no matter how much current you attempt to draw off of it.
WOW, you are so wrong I laughed when I read this. Go back to school......
I just asked my dad. He said that he knows of a tractor puller who runs a 440 dodge, the block is filled with CEMENT, IE NO COOLING WHATSOEVER. BUT! It runs on straight alcohol which burns very cool.
you wont expect no gains... that myth surfaced because of how inefficent cars where back in the 50-70s or what ever. ..... i soppos i might be wrong but **** it some one will correct me (grammer to_) its the same **** with those vented rotors. the reason why they are so good isnt the same reason why they was invented... early pads gave off a gas..result would be the same *** gliding on oil.. thats why the driver would get brake fad
what everyone seems to be forgetting is that at speed an electric fan doesn't switch on at all. where as a mechanical fan still puts a load on the engine. minor load yes i get it but on the track when you trying to make your shifts as quick as possible, both up and down, less rotating weight is the way to go. plus when you go to a VMIC or a different sized rad, then you'll need an e-fan. which is where this started.
as for an electric water pump. the ONLY reason it was invented was to free up a couple HP for the drag racers that run from their battery and charge it after 30second of driving. being able to cool your motor after it's shut down was just a benefit.
So, all said...is there anywhere that makes a higher flow water pump that is the oem setup? Na and turbo pumps are the same...what other options are there? Aside from tearing the motor apart to do a water jacket mod...
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for the dyno graph showing the difference between an e-fan and thermo mechanical fan, i would like to know that the fan was in fact ON while the dyno pull was being made... keeping the fan off defeats the purpose of comparing the 2, you may as well just leave the e-fan off the car as well since when it isn't running there is no load being transferred.
The fact that the fan may not run while the car's doing a pull, as noted above, is a part of why Drag Cars like electric pumps/Fans ... Starting out at the line, the cars warm, but not hot, so the pump is running at low speed. In 8-10 seconds, they're going to create a lot of heat ... but it has to soak into the coolant, reach the sensor and kick the pump up in speed. It probably wont soak that heat into the pump for 8-10 seconds, so the pump/fan pulled very little power from the car until after the run.
Here's the second, and possibly more important part. Right after the run, the car's basically just idling, so a mechanical pump/fan would be running at its lowest rate. All that heat they created is being serviced by a pump or fan working at its lowest rate. With an E pump/Efan, even though they're idling back to their pit/trailer/etc, the fans/pumps are running as fast as they need to be.
That being said, that dyno seems bogus to me. E-Fans E-Water pumps are rated at 20-30Amps and run @ about 13.5 volts. That equates to roughly 1/2 horse power when they run at full bore if you're rounding up. That sounds about right to me, and while a mechanical pump -may- have slightly more loss due to adding more rotating mass to the car (pully and pump rotating internals, larger belt) and a minuscule amount of pump / belt friction, I have a very hard time believing the sum total of ALL of those is more than 1/4 hp on a good day.
Lastly, there is a slight weight savings. If you remove the Water Pump Housing and stock water pump and replace it with something like a Meziere remote mount EWP (they move 55 GPM and are rated for 600 ish HP in a piston road race application) piped straight to the front Iron, you save something like 6-8 lbs off what is basically the very front of the car. Is that worth $700-800 worth of kit/fabrication? That's up to you :-P
On reliability ... we all run electric fuel pumps, no one goes around screaming that should be mechanically driven. I've had belts break, I've had water pumps fail ( not on a FD, but on other cars) etc. Everything breaks, this is no more or less reliable, it's just a different way to get something done. Quite frankly, it's far more expensive and I'd wager that was the #1 reason Mazda chose to avoid it.
I personally was looking into it because I liked the idea of my Water Pump and Fans scaling up/down their load together. It never seemed like a ideal design when you could have your fans running in the highest of 3 modes, but the pump running at its lowest if the cars Idling, or vis versa. I expect no gains other than the possibility of keeping a more constant coolant temperature, but that's worth something.
This one welds right onto the Radiator tank where the lower hose connection is. Theoretically, you could use this pump, just pull out the thermostat as those aren't used in an EWP set up, and design a blocking plate to replace the stock water pump that would allow coolant to flow through. This would retain all the factory plumbing for turbo cooling, throttle body, etc as well as Mounting for Alternator / Taps for Sensors. If you really wanted to save that 6 lbs, you could custom fabricate something to meet your specific needs.
While I haven't used that specific kit, I have used various versions of the Davies Craig EWP and controller over the past 18 years and they are fantastic. I would go for the alloy EWP150, which is super reliable and will easily outflow a factory mechanical water pump under all conditions.
The main advantage of the EWP is that it can supply coolant flow based solely on temperature demands, not rpm. In reality, peak cooling demands will be at lower vehicle speeds and higher load, since air flow through the radiator is lower. Under these conditions, a mechanical pump's flow rate is determined solely by rpm, whereas the EWP can supply 100% flow rate.
Conversely, at higher rpm, a mechanical pump can cavitate as it is spinning faster. The mechanical load on the crank pulley will also increase exponentially compared to water pump rpm. Davies Craig published some lab data on this back in the day which was used to get its patent. I don't think it's up on the website anymore.The higher the engine revs, the greater the benefit.
Power gains at higher rpm are a bonus. On a rotary, they are roughly in the order of 5-10rwhp at peak rpm.
Personally, on a street car, I found the best results by retaining the factory thermostat and bypass, in combination with the controller. This ensures quicker warmup times but most importantly prevents the engine from overcooling. Without a thermostat, I found the EWP is so efficient, coolant can drop back to cold temperatures on the freeway. Others on this board have reported the same. Most of the kits you'll see delete the thermostat. It's far from ideal IMHO unless you have a race car.
I have written extensively on EWP setups on AusRotary.com if you want to read up more. The most concise relevant info is here:
Thanks.! Have an '85 GSL... I just caught this thread off of a google search, LOL.... well, I have already upgraded my alternator to a 200 amp unit a while back....(for other reasons) ..
the car came equipped with an electric fan from the previous owner.. It has a thermostat I can adjust with a screwdriver.... & the fan comes on when the A/C clutch is turned on.... Also, I live in South Florida...& it is never cold down here....like never.
seems those one guys make a plate or something that goes in-place of the water pump housing or something...IDK,, that cleans up the install. However, never I got a very good look at it.....the only pictures of the block-off unit are (of it) installed in the cars in the photos....those damn photogs' ,lol, they make everything look great! but not a great pic of the block off plate!
Last edited by SKYDRIFTER350; 09-25-18 at 12:16 AM.
I traced a water pump gasket onto a piece of 10mm thick billet aluminium and got a machine shop to cut it using a bandsaw. It cost me a 6 pack of beer. This was before shops offered the water pump blanking plates off the shelf like the kit Turblown sells.
You can replace the entire water pump housing with an inlet/outlet flange. This simplifies the entire setup and looks very nice, but requires you to side-mount the alternator, meaning no A/C or power steering. It also necessitates a different strategy if you want to use a bypass thermostat - you need to use a remote bypass thermostat housing. There are a couple of OEM setups which have this exact design, which I described in the last 2 topics I linked above.
Thanks....However, no A/C is not an option for me as this is a road going car & I live in the jungle.... ie., its always hot here... I like the blanking plate idea tho... just wish I could keep the a/c.....
Thanks....However, no A/C is not an option for me as this is a road going car & I live in the jungle.... ie., its always hot here... I like the blanking plate idea tho... just wish I could keep the a/c.....
If you use my method, by keeping the factory water pump housing and making a blanking plate to replace the water pump only, you can still run A/C. I know, because I kept a working A/C system.
All that changes is the water pump pulley goes and you run a shorter belt directly from the crank to the alternator. The A/C belt can run in front of that as per normal.
You just need to make the necessary modifications to the water pump housing as I described in the first forum post I linked above.
Ok, thanks.... I looked more thoroughly through Ur pictures &I see what You mean when using the blanking plate as You describe...Looks like it works nicely, ...(remove the pump guts, then cover it up) & let the electric pump do the pumping... & Are You happy with their water pump/electric fan controller?
thanks.
Yep very happy. Been using the older version since 2000 or 2001. Car is get a lot of stuff done at the moment, so I'm upgrading to the new alloy 150L/min version and new controller. Looks even better.
To be clear, I have the electric water pump controller controlling pump speed, but I also have a thermostat with bypass in addition to that to ensure proper coolant circulation during warmup and so that it doesn't run too cool on the freeway.
@KYPREO Can you confirm this is correct? I am setting up an NA 20b so I dont think I'll have room to keep the stock thermostat housing and will need to move to the basic inlet/outlet setup. From what I read from your other posts I only need a basic external thermostat housing with bypass?
ive been trying to find this on other threads but no luck. im just wondering the benefits in performance with putting an electric water pump. how much of a HP can be expected.
i imagine since when i turn the a/c on the car looses so much power. imagine without the drag of the water pump how much horsepower might be regained.
So I installed a Davis Craig Electric Water Pump with the controller on my S5 NA Motor. I used the Built2Apex EWP adapter and had custom AN lines made to route the plumbing. I also notched the tubes on my Koyo N Flow and had AN fittings welded to that. In regards to your HP question, I actually dynoed my car after I installed the EWP and it looks like I lost .5hp. I'll just say I didn't get any HP gain. I will say the motor felt smoother since it didn't need to work as hard. My favorite part about the set up is the fight against heat soak. After I come in from running the car hard for 20min I'm able to just take off the key and walk away. The controller will keep the pump running at full speed along with the electric fan until it's 10 degrees less than my target temp. If I recall correctly I set the target temp at 185.
03-04-10, 12:38 PM
