Ted Webster

Yes it does have very flammable fumes, of course not like hydrogen but none the less, flammable. You would want to runa vent tube outside the engine bay, like a wheel well, with a small filter on it. A wiper washer tube would work great for that. If you've seen some of the F1 fires during races--thats what you're dealing with. Its the other component used in nitromethanol. You get the idea. If it is set up right, there is nothing to worry about.

rarson

If anyone has any questions about water injection, including using rain water, I suggest you check out www.waterinjection.info and check out their forums. Almost anything you could possibly ask about water injection has been covered at some point on those forums, by very knowledgable people. Further discussion about it here is rather pointless, as it's already been covered there.

RETed

Hmmm...I'm a reading some conflict in your statements?
How can pure water be corrosive?
"Corrosive" implies low pH, which is next to impossible if pure water is 7.0?


Isn't this backwards?
85% gasoline and 15% ethanol?


-Ted

RETed

You gotta be kidding me...
Are a bunch of people on a forum that ignorant?
Basic ecology teaches you that rain pulls all kinds of pollutants from the air.
Unless you're living in the middle some kinda utopia, there is no want the "rain water" is going to purer than some of the treated and filtered municipal water.
In fact, there was some problems with LEAD contamination in catchment systems.
I won't even touch acid rain which Node brought up...sulphurous[sp?] gas + H2O = sulphuric acid!


-Ted

sleeperfc

i saw the use of 50/50 water/meth on a car dyno tune on thrusday morning befor egoing to the beach. my buddys supra bottom end and 6speed is300 with a gt40. well before the spray he rough tuned it to 13psi and was making 360whp at 11.5:1 a/f. Intake temps were at 125F and egts were climbing to 800C... not good.

He turned on the spray arm switch and made another pull...

he made 328whp on this pass. When the spray came on the a/f graph went straight down off the chart. the intake temps went down to 80F and stayed there the whole pull. The egts were 650C.

They ended up taking TONS of fuel out (like 25%) to get the a/f ratio back to 11.5:1
After tuning the a/f to 11.5:1 the car made 445whp @ 13psi. with a peak egt reading of 700C.


I had no idea the spray effected the tuing so much! I was one of the people that planned to just "add it" for "safty" but it actually takes power away like that. running super righ a/f is not good for the motor.

So looks like im going to tune to the water/meth on high boost... and not run it or tune to it (DUH) on low boost.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

No it isnt Ted.. Do a search for "E85" and prepared to be educated.

rarson

Ted, I'm not going to get into an argument with you, but suffice to say I'm pretty sure you didn't click the link. There are many people there who know MUCH MORE about water injection than you. So instead of surmising that they are a bunch of idiots, I suggest you check the board out before you further lambast them based on my heresay (who's to say I'm not full of ****?).

Also, Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFV's) are out right now. I know Ford made a Taurus and a truck, and possibly other vehicles. They come with a green sticker. The only difference between these cars and normal cars is the fuel system is designed for alcohol, to reduce the corrosion possibilities with "normal" fuel systems (ie, rubber lines, injectors, pump seals, etc.).

rarson

You can't add water and meth to the fuel mixture and expect the wideband to still read correctly! Your buddy needs to figure out how much extra fuel he is adding to the combustion chamber due to the meth and calculate out the actual AFR.

And yes, water/meth injection is a great way to make power. Only stubborn people who refuse to innovate or educate themselves consider it a "band-aid." And just to note, the reason why cars don't come with WI stock is because auto makers are afraid people are too lazy. Oh no, not another tank I have to keep filling up!

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

That and most people would fill it with tap water.

sleeperfc

[QUOTE=rarson]You can't add water and meth to the fuel mixture and expect the wideband to still read correctly! Your buddy needs to figure out how much extra fuel he is adding to the combustion chamber due to the meth and calculate out the actual AFR.
[QUOTE]


so your saying that when you tune a car with water meth injection you cant use the windband readings..... im going to have to disagree with you. We tune to target egt and a/f numbers on spray. Not sure how that can be wrong.

If his a/f numbers were not as low as the wideband said then whats with the black smoke? the loss of power?

gingenhagen

it is true that the wideband is less accurate with water injection, but i don't think it means that it's going to start giving junk numbers.

RETed

I'd still wouldn't use that **** in my car.


-Ted

RETed

I know a little more about "water" than the average Joe Schmoe off the street; I raise fish.
I think these guys are all smoking crack.
Why would I waste my time trying to read some bullshit that I obviously know they are all wrong?
There's too much crap in the environment to be using that stuff.
To claim it's better than RO water is pure bullshit.


-Ted

Ted Webster

Ted,
No intention to flame here, so please bear with me. Water in its natural form contains tons of mineral. These minerals are what makes water so conductive. When the water is run through either a mixed or two separate Deionozation beds the material in the beds which is constructed of styrene plastic actually pulls ALL the minerals out. Usually the water put in has already been through an reverse osmosis machine to achieve whatever the highest quality it can. When the water comes out of the beds, it is no longer measured in units of conductivity, it is now measured in units of resistance (ohms or siemens--no pun intended).
The water has been refined to the point where it is not unheard of to achieve 18 megohm water--meaning pure H2O in the chemical sense. Because there are no extra particles in the water, it actually will absorb anything around it to make up this difference--even norell plastic is subject to it. In fact, if you put the just made DI water into a tester made for this, the water will actually pull "stuff" out of the air that comes in contact with it and reduce the resistance reading. I know this sounds extreme, but it is. It is often used in the electronics industry to wash pc boards before they are sealed. Also used in lab chemestry analysis so the reagents are not contaminated.
Ok, now to using it in injection. If a person uses tap water regularly, eventually these minerals would find their way into the seal springs, side seals where they would harden under heat and effectively solidify the seals in place. The seals would start carving up the housings. If I were to consider this, it would be better to run a 50/50 mix of di water and methanol or ethanol. This ties up the waters corrosiveness, and gives you a pure shot of what you're really after without the nasty side effects. Incidentally, even the best stainless doesn't hold up to di water very well. These days they often use hasteloy piping, terrible to work with and extremely expensive. Forget about bending it--TIG only connections.
I hope this explains where I was coming from. The ph on this stuff is usually arounf "4" so it is also by nature very acidic. I didn't get the percentages of the gas/meth backwards!
You'll start seeing it around soon. One of the reasons I went with a gas engine instead of diesel nearly the same btu content, but much less carbonization

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

I never told you to.. But you are smarter!

RETed

Okay, I know the principles of all this stuff, but I had a hard time trying to translate that into text effectively.
I had to a web search to figure out what I was trying to say...

http://www.purewatersystems.com/ph_topic.php
Unless this is pure bunk, that's the gist of it.

I was talking about RO water and *not* DI water - that's two different things.
RO filter are primary for particulate and dissolved solids (what aquarist called TDS).

"Pure water" itself is supposed to be neutral - i.e. pH = 7.0.
It's the interaction with CO2 that creates carbonic acid which drops the pH.
The link mentioned apple juice being a pH of about 3.0, so I find it hard to believe water with a pH of 4 doing anything nasty to pipes...maybe long term?

I am primarily arguing against the notion of using "rain water", which RO water is effectively "better" in terms of contaminants...no matter what some group of cult follows say counter on some online forum.


-Ted

Ted Webster

Ted, In the comparison of r.o. water to rain water I totally agree with you R. o. machines effectively reduce the total TDS (total dissolved solids-measured in micromohs), and it is done mechanically using sepalators and high pressure. Depending on the over all amount used, as in occasional shots, or continuously, the difference in the overall water quality could become an issue. If straight tap water were used instead of alcohol, that would be ok, if the engine were torn down regularly, as in the pure racing situation, but for a street machine, that gets run everyday with water---it better be as near pure as possible, if your gonna use it a lot.

reboot

great info!

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Holy back from the dead!