Trevor

Two more things:
- Why are you so hung up on exhaust temps? Lower EGT's do not always equate to more power.

- I have EGT (with record capability and peak) and 100% denatured alcohol on my Stealth. I've done testing from 431 cc/min up to 883 cc/min keeping AFR's at 11.5:1 solid on 94 octane fuel. As I progressively ramp up the amount of alcohol injected my EGTs continue to drop. Care to comment?

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

EGT's give you a better idea of what's going on inside the chamber than the intake before it, which is why EGT's would prove useful here, considering with enough alcohol EGT's can raise, thus why we asked for it rather than intake.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

My injector is rated at 100 PSI, so in effect I am spraying a tad over 590 CC.

Trevor

- Increased EGT's after changing AFR's, fuel type/quality, or timing are not necessarily indicative of more knock or (again) a loss of power.

- Show me an example of EGT's increasing with the addition of more alcohol at the same load point and overall AFR.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Well, considering it'd be interesting to see what the different mixtures has on the combustions temperature, and unless you have an easier method, an EGT comparison of the same setup using different mixtures would provide useful. And what exactly is your obession with being anti-EGT?

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

lol, this is the most hostile and informative thread ever! haha

keep it coming, this is some great stuff though.

J-Rat does the alcohol injection have a tuneable duty cycle of sorts? or does it just spray some constant linear amount?

BigMike85

wouldn't everyone's location also affect EVERY aspect of this as well? alcohol might work better in more humid locations, whereas water injection would just make the air more thick? and im assuming that either would work well in arid climates? just some thoughts, but this is an amazing thread guys!

gingenhagen

"The effect of water on the induction charge will be somewhat greater in drier climates where more water can be evaporated into the air. However this should not be taken as an indication that it is not useful in more humid climates. Once the induction charge gets heated it will always have room to accept the evaporated water whether the initial relative humidity was high or low - and this evaporation will always absorb heat from the induction charge.

As the water absorbs heat the droplet sizes will decrease and the surface area of the water droplets will increase. Any additional volume from this reaction will be more than made up for by the reduction of the charge temperature and its resulting increased density. Water is not displacing the volume or weight of air in the induction charge and actually working to increase the volume and weight of air that reaches the cylinder. Sizeable droplets of water will reach the cylinder with significant heat absorbing potential intact."

source: www.waterinjection.info

iceblue

On the first page he awnserd that it ups the voltage to the pump at his set 7psi.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

I dont think its hostile.. At least not from my perspective. Everyone that has joined up has posted good information..

My injection is just a nozzle with a voltage controlled pump, as Iceblue has mentioned.

kontakt

Good stuff gingen, the longer this thread runs the closer the gist of it comes to the information provided. I'm pretty sure that's a good thing.

gingenhagen

Yup, I would definitely read it all the way through from beginning to end. My own knowledge of water injection increased by 100% through all the research I had to do to try to give water injection a good name.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Interesting article on a Alchy powered projected 6 sec car..

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...11htp_charged/

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Some interesting info on why using alcohol tends to get FCs through emissions:

Blending Alcohol and Gasoline

Mixing alcohol with gasoline produces gasohol. Advantages of fuel blends are that alcohol tends to increase the octane rating, which is particularly important in unleaded fuel, and reduce carbon monoxide (CO) emissions from the engine.

The primary disadvantage of mixing methyl and ethyl alcohol with gasoline is that under certain conditions these alcohols may separate from the gasoline. An engine adjusted to burn gasoline efficiently will produce less power from alcohol should it separate from the gasoline. Separation is caused by the polar nature of the alcohol molecules and their tendency to absorb water, also a polar substance. Methyl alcohol is the most likely to separate, butyl alcohol the least likely. The tendency for separation increases as the temperature decreases, the quantity of water absorbed increases, and the quality of the gasoline decreases.



My head hurts...

All I can definately say, is that pure water is not as prevalent as it used to be (based on research), and that the 50/50 or 70/30 alcohol/water seems to be the standard. I couldnt find any comparison between the blend and straight alcohol.

But hey, it works on my car!!..

Good night all! Round 3 tomorrow?

gingenhagen

bring it!

actually, I think most of the argument when just considering using cooling to reduce knock has been dealt with, since it's probably the most easily understood and therefore debated well. All that remains in my eyes is exact equations and numbers (maybe from a SAE paper? which i'm not willing to pay for) for info on when water and methanol reach their limits. Also, more info on the effect of extra heat from burning methanol. For now, without raw data, I can only speculate. And I speculate that their effect is only seconday to the cooling factor. Maybe more info detailing how water and methanol each affect the actual combustion process. That would be interesting as well.

FCsForMe

so does this mean that i can save gas and have the same power?

and when you said it cleans out the carbons, so if i had a newly rebuilt engine, then it would always be clean?

sorry if they're newby questions i just wanted to get that strait.

gingenhagen

correct! You can save gas and be more reliable. The current solution to preventing knock is running very rich, since gas has cooling properties. However, if you use water to cool, then you can tune for optimal fuel-air ratio, which releases more power. Furthermore, water does a much better job of cooling than gas every could, and does other junk to control combustion and improve reliability, as well as increase the potential of your engine by 50% (rough number) if you so choose to push it that far.

If you're using methanol injection, then you need to turn down the gas even more, since methanol is itself a fuel, resulting in even greater gas savings, but you pay for it in methanol, so it's actually much more expensive.

And yes, your new engine will always be clean. On old engines with carbon deposits, you always run the risk of dislodging these deposits the first time you run water injection, but after that your car will be fine.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

I am going to make a point here:

Straight water wont allow you to turn down the gas any signifigant amount. Alcohol and methanol will allow you to turn down the gas signifigantly. I could show you if I could post a screen shot of my Haltech Maps.

Reason being is that water isnt a substitute for fuel, but alcohol or a mixture of water and alcohol, or meth, or a mix, etc... can be substituted for small amounts of fuel.

So yeah, when I am spraying I am actually saving gas.. sort of.. Might explain why I get 20 MPG on a big turbo setup/12 sec car?

Wankel7

I have an old paper made up by NACA...

Here were the final conclusions... I have the whole thing if somebody wants to host it (1mb)



EDIT : Found where it is hosted... GREAT reading there
http://not2fast.wryday.com/NACA/

gingenhagen

You could get inifinite mpg if you started using so much alcohol that it completely replaced the gas. Hahaha.
some guy: "What's your mileage?"
you: "Infinity."

eage8

iTrader: (9)

this thread made my head hurt

my conclusion - I'm probably going to use WI till I upgrade my turbo, then I'll start using AI.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Exactly! But its just replacing one thing with another. I am actually toying around with a few ideas here. One would be going to a 15 GPH nozzle or, almost 1000 cc/min, or I just found out that Methanol is 3 bucks a gallon here, as opposed to Denatured Alcohol, which is 9 bucks a gallon. So I may retune for Methanol.

gingenhagen

about how much alcohol to you end up using with a tank of gas?

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

It really depends on how I drive. Around town, I am pretty mellow, so a tank of alcohol can last up to a tank of gas, or roughly 2 weeks. At the track, I use about 1/4 tank per 4 passes, so about 10-12 passes or so before a refill.

nth697

lots of good info here.
from what i have read im thinking that an alcahol\watter mix would be the best compromise.

but what about nitrous oxide?

if you are spraying the watter alcahol mix and then start spraying nitro would the nitrous freeze the watter as its entering the engine? does ice crystals + rotors=extra wear and tear?
also with the watter\alcahol doing its steam cleaning thing, keeping carbon off of everything should extra lube (2 stroke oil pre mix) be used?