classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Updates:

Car's running well still (knock on wood) and I found some interesting info regarding my Haltech trigger problems, and specifically, the last failure with audible knock and massive advance.

I tuned before on a toshiba satellite laptop and it always seemed to work pretty well. However, I noticed one day when I downloaded Halwin to my desktop that there were features missing from the install on my laptop....missing trigger diagnostics, the ability to change units and a few otehr small items. I really thought nothing of it though.

When BDC came up to tune the car, we noticed something odd. When he viewed the current map on my E6X with HIS laptop + dos software all the trigger settings were different (or most anyways....can't recall exactly) and specifially - the trigger EDGES were backwards when viewing on his laptop..........I could plug mine in, view teh settings and they would be fine though.

Upon running this engine, I have been using a NEW laptop and the Halwin install has all the features that the desktop install has - nothing missing now. When I went into the trigger settings to just check them out....I noticed that the second edge setting was set to RISING instead of falling. What does this do? Well if you stick a timing gun on your car and change the setting - you'll note with a rising edge setup your ignition will fire WAAAAAY advanced. In the neighbourhood of 50 degrees.

Was this an issue caused by my botched install? Don't know exactly. But its something. Its also note worthy for all you EMS guys to make sure that whatever software you're tuning with is installed correctly. It may not cause issues - but rule out all possibilities anyways.

On a happy note (but kinda sad) I'll be dynoing the car again on saturday, and hope to *finally* make it through a session with some numbers and a running engine. After that though, its back in the garage to come apart for a complete re-wire, re-paint, rebuild, re-fast

EDIT: oh and yeah.....the youtube EGT logging didn't go well. Turns out its hard to focus that bitch on two small needles whille pulling 16psi in 3rd
Also - RETed, the CAS wiring is (and was at the time of the last failure) exactly the same as hitmans. I doubled checked again

Alex Rodriguez

iTrader: (137)

sounds fun

you are painting her the same color right

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Yup same red. *may* two tone the car this time......if not, it will just be black S4 mouldings (going to put them in the bomex bumpers)

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I saw you in London last night. You probably didn't see me though.

hkp

iTrader: (2)

im glad you didnt run the tec gt, the guy who built my motor has a 10 second rx7 and has had lots of troubles with his tec gt, including some blown motors. the local rotary tuner swears up and down by haltech and he has a 700+ hp second gen. i love your car and cant wait for updates, keep up the good work.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

No I didn't! I was out on a date w00t

7_rocket

iTrader: (6)

Did you call marta to retrieve your man hood?

BDC

I am honestly glad you noticed that, Joe. I'm curious now about the software differences between the Windows and DOS (which I use) versions and the settings they leave on the maps themselves. All of those trigger settings should be set to Falling. I don't know how one would swap to Rising. Next time I goof with an X car I'll have to look at that more closely.

B

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Actually, I will be using the TECgt I merely opted to continue tracing down the issue on the E6X because it is absolutely SOOO frustrating to be beaten by a little issue like that for so long. In all honesty, I stil don't feel that its 100% fixed, but nothing bad has happened since dialing in the gains and filters this time....we'll see how I do on the dyno tomorrow.

No Dom. My manhood's still firmly attached between my legs.

Next time I mess with an X.........wait wait - that won't be happening! Hopefully it helps someone, somewhere, with something one day. That would make all my losses worthwhile

TitaniumTT

This problem is exactely why I went the route that I did. I went the Motec M820 route with a COMPLETE new mil-spec professional harness. Everything, & I mean EVERTHING is brand new. The only wiring that was left from the original motor was from the CAS to a new Deutsch connector. The EMS guru that has been helping me with this PJ has never had an issue with triggering from a Motec with a new harness and a Mazda CAS. In He I trust.

Just to make doubly sure, I opted for 4 LS coils mounted on the block to avoid all original wiring. I hope, I pray, for no electrical problems like have plagued you. Your persistance is inspirational

A tip when you wire up your new harness - DO NOT SOLDER ANYTHING! I used to solder wires together as well until a the same guru, warned me against it. For HEAVY battery cables yeah maybe, but for smaller wires it's definately a no-no. The solder wicks up into the wire (which I always thought was good) and over time becomes brittle. The vibrations and heat often lead to failures. He's seen it a thousand times & the last time I was tracing a problem in my car, why the dash lights didn't work, I found a broken wire that broke right at the solder junction. I was convinced after talking to the guru but ti took a few years to actual find the proof. Soldering is no good. I even read in the Motec instruction manual to never solder

Not at your fortunes, but at the title and the last comment made me laugh. Sorry to see a beautiful car get dinged, but hey, like you said, you can fix the bumper to your likings now

When you wire that beast up, I would really try to go with all new wiring to everything. Ignore the factory wiring, even the triggers for the coils, just as a little added safegaurd. Here's a pic of the harness that I stared with. EVERYTHING engine related is brandy new. Below you can see what I mean - you can even see the deutch connector for the CAS and the 4 metri-packs for the LS coils mounted on the block. Hope it helps, GREAT build though, very impressive

BDC

Does the Motorola Razor come with the Motec?

B

TitaniumTT

For the price of the fricken thing it should rub my inner thighs while driving. I think it's part of the advanced features purchased seperately though.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the post!

On my car currently, the only original wiring is the power to the stock coils, the body harness (lights etc) and the cruise control/coolant sensor wirign going through the right side of the firewall...everything else is new from the Haltech out to the sensors/injectors/etc. Plus, like you the stock CAS wires from the unit, to the plug (but I'm using the stock plug )

On the TECgt I'll be utilizing 2 gangs of "mil spec style" connectors I got from theory. They're new pieces from a Mack truck. Same style connecters as a mil-spec, but the body is composite as opposed to steel/aluminum whatever yours are. The wires in the plug are already crimped on and have alot of length on wire on each end. I'll simply be adding to it what I need for length etc.

I'll take some pics of them soon to post up.



This is great advice. I thought exactly the same as you before, but have found otherwise. A perfect example was when BDC was up here, the last day we were tuning on my car we were discussing possible wiring issues for things and wiggling wires trying to duplicate the hesitation. Marco (thewird) grabbed my leading coil harness and the car started shuddering like mad. I looked at the plug and one of the wires was hanging on by a thread at the solder joint in the plug....I'd had that plug on and off a million times, but the solder finally weakend and broke......it had been installed as such for roughly two years...

Needless to say I won't be doing that again. I'd planned on simply taking my already made plugs and adding them to the TEC harness (since the MAP, coolant, air temp etc sensors from the Haltech will be used on the TEC) but they all have soldered pins....so I'm going to purchase another connecter kit from haltech, and wire the sensors up with crimps and yet again brand new connectors.


Yeah, I was disappointed but I walways look at the bright side (or try to )

Yup the TEC uses its own individual coils (similar to the LS coils) so even they this time will have NO stock wiring whatsoever. Great advice, and thanks for the compliments on the build! Means alot coming from someone who has such a beautiful piece of machinery under the knife. Much props to your sir


Now onto my weekend:

The dyno went pretty successfully on saturday, I didn't run into any trigger problems (like before...) YEAH!

I've got a sheet that I'll post a pic of later, but for now I'll go over the results and the issues. I used a mustang dyno at Dragonwerks in Pickering.

First, we started by doing some pulls at spring pressure - 8.5psi - to see if she was up for the task. Took it like a champ. First runs were around 235whp, rich as hell. Tuning only fuel I picked up just over 50whp, ending at 282whp @ 8psi.........only tuned to high 10AFR.......only pulling to 6Krpm. Why? Anything above ~6200 and the datalogs would show RPM jumping several hundred RPM's and scattering about, below that was perfectly fine however. Limitations of the E6X internal reluctor IMO.

Cranked it up to 13psi ending the tune to high 10's at about 330whp, still under 6K.

Cranked it up to 18psi and netted rouguhly 370. Again just tuned to high 10's, under 6K.

We took a break, and then started over again from the bottom.

Low boost didn't change much, leaned it out to 11.2 flat and still got 280's

changed medium boost setting to 15psi - netted 350whp at 11.0 flat

Changed to 18 again and everything went lean. Added fuel, leaner, added fuel......leaner yet. Watched the fuel pressure gauge and noticed we were getting up there, but once it leveled off under boost (aroudn 50psi of fuel pressure) it would jump then drop to 30. Tried again and blew the fuel pump fuse.

I'll have to look at it, but my guess is a weakening connection somewhere in the wiring sapping voltage or shorting out. The Denso pump never had issues before, and wasn't a problem earlier in the day at all. Even when BDC was here we checked my pressure and all was well.

The final problem which was consistent through the day was that my GT3574 ahs taken a **** kicking from chunks of apex seal. Boost would never build and stabilize, it was always ramping up. All my graphs (as you'll see when I post the highest run) show boost peaking at the end of the run. This - I believe - is half the problem causing the lower then expected numbers. Although it still did quite well for nearly stock ports (338ft/lbs of TQ @ 380hp!!!). Plus, I'm no wizard tuning. Just a lil' tuna in a sea of whales.

All in all though, extremely happy with the results. Over 44 pulls were made (almost travelled 100kms on the dyno) in two hours, the car never even thought about getting hot, took it like a champ, and leaves a smile on my face from ear to ear when you stand on it!

Good way to end the season - now to take it all apart, make it faster, more reliable and WIRED BETTER!

EDIT: Oh, and on the way home from the dyno the hanger bolt for my wastegate muffler fell out! I drove from the 401 all the way home with a clanging muffler.....tried a roadside coat hagner fix but it was POURING rain and I really didn't care if the $25 muffler broke off (but it didn't) so I just rocked it all the way back to my place.

All runs were also done with AI which was water/washer fluid. It was getting cold here the last few weeks and I didn't want to risk having 100% water freeze, so I chucked some washer fluid in for saftey.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

I was at Mazdee's this morning and Joe was telling me about your successful tuning. Glad to hear your finally getting things sorted and working! Looked at your dyno graph and its nice and smooth coming up there. It seems like it just wants to keep climbing lol. Can't wait to hear more

thewird

TitaniumTT

I use a combination of 3 electrical supply houses, Delcity.net - good for battery realted cable, connectors, bulkhead fittings, breakers etc ($25 minimum order) TerminalSupplyCo.com - great for small orders of Metri-pak, weather-pak, and tools, thier prices are much more than Waytek but they only have a $25 minimum order, and finally WaytekWire.com who doesn't have a minimum dollar order but a minimum quantitiy order. For example, when I wanted to fill my bin with 2 pin metripaks I only wanted 10, but thier minimum order was 20. Thier 20 was still cheaper than Terminal Supply's 10 so I ordered 20. You get the point though. I say this becuase if I were you, I would strip off the CAS connector and snip the wires until it is perfectly clean wire that is exposed and then add a deutsh connector (gold pins) or at the least a metri-pak connector. This way you can be more certain that it is not a wiring issue associtated with the triggering problem

I'd be very curios as to what these look like. They sound great. What ga wire is being used? I've often thought about cutting the Front Harness and using bulkhead connectors but haven't been able to find any that would take the gauge needed, or that have enough pins. In all honesty though, how often are you removing the front harness? Only when the engine bay is being painted I would think. & how often is that?

Yeah, my latest experience was the dash lighting. One day it stopped working, I got mad and punched the dash and the lit up Then every time I turned the lights on it would do the same thing. It got so bad that I had to take my left foot and lightly kick the dash to front harness connectors to get it to work. Finally I just unpinned the terminals thinking that it was a bad pin. It wasn't. The car was going under the knife so I said **** it. Later I found out that it was the solder joint farther into the front harness that I tapped into for the parking lighting for the alarm. Whoops! I still had headlights, but no parking lights. That kinda sucked. Oh well, problem fixed. Now I'm wondering about all the other solder joints in the harness and if I should start paying attention to those? Next winter I am stripping the car again to treat the interior and the undercarriage. With the harness on the floor, I'll probably address all those joints just for piece of mind.

As for all the connectors, it might be worth it to look at those links I posted earlier or take a trip to Motec's website. In thier catalog they have terminals listed individually. It MIGHT be cheaper to find the individual termianls rather than buying a totally new kit.

Tough to look at the bright side of that but you managed to.

How close are they to the LSX coils in terms mounting? I could point you in the direction of some GORGEOUS billet mounts for them as seen here

And thank you very much for the compliments! Having painted the car myself, that means alot coming from a body shop owner!

Are you planning on attending DGRR '09?

Thats interesting aboput the washer fluid. The factory used a mix of anitfreeze for the sub-zero start assist, why not use a touch of antifreeze as opposed to the washer fluid?

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Good to know Marco I was curious as to where you ended up power wise on Jo's dyno before all your misfortune. What were your latest numbers?

Yeah the boost as you saw really never stabilizes. It peaks at the end of every run. If I could've had a stable 15psi from say ~3800,4000 to 6000 it would've laid down probably 20-30whp more. Instead its making 12@4000, 13 at 5000 and 15 at 6000 on the 15psi setting.......not great for power.

But I was happy with the TQ curve and the dyno sheet I'll post shows roughly 200whp @ 4000rpm which is a great benchmark to shoot for on a turbo car. Stock peak (flywheel even...) power 1/2 way through the RPM band? Sounds nice to me!

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the vendors, I'll check them out!



Yeah, I might have been a little unclear before. The two gangs I'll be using will be only for the engine harness, the left side harness will remain as is. I actually tore down the left side harness to inspect the power wires for the coils in the summer amidst the problems.....and I'm happy with its shape. Quite good for a 22 year old darling

I'll post shots of the plugs soon. The two connectors are a 31 pin, and 16 pin (IIRC) the 31 pin one uses 12AWG and the smaller one uses 16AWG. Also, the 31 pin has 3 shielded groups on it which run together. They are shielded individually, and the group is sheilded together. These will be used for my trigger.




Never ending adventure isn't it?


Well, close, but not SUPER close.



I don't know exactly where I'll be mounting them either. I originally planned on ditching my power steering seeing as I'll be using an FD front cover/water pump/belt system with the new ECU. But after mulling it over, I may keep it. In which case the coils will probably go where the stock trailings were. Appreciate the link though - those are some mack daddy brackets!!!
Your welcome - you did an excellent job on the paint on that FC.

Absolutely. After going last year I wouldn't miss it for the world.

Well I actually thought about that, but my thinking was that some people actually use straight washer fluid as AI in some cases. Having seen it done I figured hey I'll give it a shot.

Plus it was coincidence because my ACTUAL washer fluid was low, so I grabbed a bottle while filling up anyways

But I may try some antifreeze toward the colder end of next year as I believe even the small amount of washer fluid I used affected my tune...and that's why I use water in the first place. Its just a saftey measure/cooling adder/stress relief for the engine - I'd expect the engine to stay together if the AI had a total failure for some reason.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

After Dave's special porting and the new engine I put down 328 @ 16 PSi with a 11.1 AFR ratio. I didn't bother trying to lean it out since I was going single soon anyway and was going to have EGT's when I did.

Before I blew the first motor I was putting down 290 @ 16 PSi with a 11.5 AFR ratio which had a basic street port. With the tune that I blew the motor up, I was putting down 327 @ 18 PSi with an AFR of 12.0 . Funny it lasted 4 laps at Mosport before blowing lol.

With the new single turbo I'm hoping to put down at least 420 @ 16 PSi on the Mustang. A-spec claims 450 @ 1 bar but on what dyno . We'll find out by the end of this week if all goes according to plan anyway

Too bad I won't be able to drive the car on the road or a road course until next year... Should be ready for the DGRR though

thewird

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Good stuff Marco - DGRR we'll test them out

Thats actually making me blush a little knowing you were making around 320ish on the mustang dyno. My 350@15psi on the same dyno seems a little more of an accomplishment now

Good numbers though, when I get to tuning on the Electromotive in the spring we'll have to meet up at the dyno for tune and chat.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Hehe we sure will. I hope I don't have anymore oddball issues for a while either.

I'm still debating whether or not to install a methanol kit and try running 20 pounds. It's just gonna add another point of failure if I'm using it as replacement fuel. I need to work out some sort of failsafe.

thewird

IAN

iTrader: (3)

Nice numbers Joe. Awesome considering its your first motor you built! At 15psi I think I am around 360-370ish? I will have to check old dyno sheets. We will have to compare maps and see what the difference is. I am sure my ignition is more advanced then yours.

Actually we can all compare tunage on the drive down to DGRR2009 and Florida Keys!! With that many KM we better have an ultimate tune for cruise.

I am only at 400rwhp at 18ish with squirting windshield washer fluid. I have not played with timing yet and still can clean up the map. I also have boost control ssues and when pulling 23psi on the street I am sure I felt breakup but at that area I was so rich it was not funny. (23psi was by accident like 4 times. I do not trust that boost level yet!)

Marco

38rwhp in just a motor change is impressive. I am looking forward to your new setup. Let me know when you are tuning if you want. Wouldn't mind hanging out.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Ask Dave when the car will be ready because that is the day it will be tuned, no break-in is required this time ^_^. I usually do my tuning on the street and then just drive to Joe's for 2-3 pulls but considering the weather, I'll probably do all my tuning on the dyno this time.

Ever since Brian from BNRTurbo's has suggested that it might have been the stock BOV that failed and caused the turbo's to fail, I've been having this gutt feeling that the car has had a boost leak ever since I owned it. When Joe first got the dyno, I was the first one to test my car on it. It put out 225 @ 12.5 PSi with the stock twins and Petit ECU and I was expecting closer to 300 with the setup. Anyway, If I pull some ridiculous numbers on the dyno, then this will probably prove it. Also, Brian says when he gets the turbo's, he'll know exactly what caused them to fail and if they were overspan or not. I'm hoping it is that because then that eliminates the W.T.F. out of the equation.

thewird

TitaniumTT

Be careful when ordering though, depending on what/how many you need will determine who will be cheapest. Waytek for bigger quantities, TSC for smaller

I've got mine opened up right now stripping out all the unneeded wires. Much like you I was pleasantly surprised with the condition that it's in.

Sounds like a very nice little piece. I would definately be interested in a few pics! Thanks

If you're interested in the brackets you can pull a measurement between the mounting holes I can measure my LSX coils. If the distance is the same, they'll work.

Again, thank you

That's all very interesting. If I were to do some sort of AI I would definately go the meth route. My only problem is I would want to control it through the Motec. I have ONE remaining output after all the sequential turbo stuff was finished. My main concern with AI is that you have the EMS's fuel map, then a piggy back AI system that turns on @ a certain boost level. At that same boost level in the EMS's MAP you have to pull fuel out. That just worries me. But, I'll cross that bridge when I get to 17+PSI

[quote=classicauto;8728004]Absolutely. After going last year I wouldn't miss it for the world.
Are you running BNR twins or stockers?

You guys are dedicated, driving all that way for DGRR. Damn, I'm hoping my car is done by then. I may just head down with the Jeep if she's not though.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

The 225 @ 12.5 PSi was with stock twins. The rest was the BNR's.

thewird

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

There's a 12AWG, 16pin connector.



Same connector, disconnected.



31 pin, 16AWG connector disconnected.



A shot of the trigger bundle in the larger gauge harness.

And now:


The dyno sheet. As you can see, the boost (green) doesn't spike and level off as it should. That graph starts at 3600rpm and I used to have full boost if I pegged it at that point.....now it lazily starts building and peaks at the end of the run, major bad news for power output.

I was overzealous with the 200whp@4K, it appears to be around 180@4K. Had boost response been better, I'm sure it would've been damn close though.

Also, the AFR on the dyno was reading a little leaner then actual due to a couple minor exahust leaks (VBANDS ) but this run is also the run where the fuel problem showed up, so the leaning out at the end IS NOT from the tune.
There ya go!