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Hello everyone. Last time I posted something on here was 2013 lol well is good to be back.
so I picked up a FC last week because it was a good deal. So now I have a car that doesn’t start because of that theft deterrent system.
I dropped a new battery in there and see what happens. Once I did that I hear a beep that never ends I open the car and it starts to beep from to areas. Behind the instrument cluster and by the fuse diver side kick panel.
what I’ve tried-
i tried locking all the doors windows up hatch closed and hood closed and try to unlock and lock the car and turn the key to lock and pause to wait to see if it changes.
I pulled the room fuse 7.5 room. The noise stopped. But doesn’t start. No click click vroom. Not even the starter engages.
I jumped the starter cut relay.
check for the unit under the glove dash and no the unit isn’t there.
All the fuses in the engine bay is all there and good.
fuses in the cabin is good to.
the car is 1987 GXL M/T N/T the
$50 amazon gift card for the individual that’s gets the solution right. 🤣
Is the alarm light on the center console going off? I know you said you saw nothing missing from behind the glove compartment, but have you tried unplugging the harness to the system back there? It should be a pretty obvious 16(?) pin for plastic header.
P.S. Check some other threads, a lot of people have had these issues, myself included.
Last edited by Joglusker; May 26, 2020 at 09:08 PM.
Is the alarm light on the center console going off? I know you said you saw nothing missing from behind the glove compartment, but have you tried unplugging the harness to the system back there? It should be a pretty obvious 16(?) pin for plastic header.
P.S. Check some other threads, a lot of people have had these issues, myself included.
yeah I’ve checked the threads. Still no go. The harness in the passenger side below the glove. That gold box or what ever box is gone. The 16 connector is what’s left. I cant recall if the light was going off in the idiot cluster thing.
but yeah. I just want to delete the thing. I just can find a thread that shows you how. Or just should I just get a new body harness?
I think you have several things going on here, and you're assuming they're related...beeping localized to the cluster or drivers kick panel has nothing to do with the theft deterrent system (unless there was a fault on the key reminder circuit, which is an input to the theft brain).
Is it a pulsed beep, or a constant beep? Pulsed beep is related to the power steering system. A constant beep could be several things such as low oil, low coolant, malfunction of over rev buzzer, etc. See the sticky as a reference covering some of this.
Now, on to the theft deterrent system...first, it's a 17 pin connector. If the brain is unplugged/missing then it has no impact on the vehicle not starting. The only influence the theft deterrent system had on starting was to pull one side of the starter cut relay coil low to disable the starter signal.
Have you used a multimeter for any troubleshooting? It's a very simple system. The starter signal goes through the clutch interlock switch first before then passing through the starter cut relay...so if you have a problem with this switch, your bypass of the relay is irrelevant. Usually the rubber stopper that depresses the plunger deteriorated and prevents the switch from contacting.
Last edited by DC5Daniel; May 26, 2020 at 10:13 PM.
I think you have several things going on here, and you're assuming they're related...beeping localized to the cluster or drivers kick panel has nothing to do with the theft deterrent system (unless there was a fault on the key reminder circuit, which is an input to the theft brain).
Is it a pulsed beep, or a constant beep? Pulsed beep is related to the power steering system. A constant beep could be several things such as low oil, low coolant, malfunction of over rev buzzer, etc. See the sticky as a reference covering some of this.
Now, on to the theft deterrent system...first, it's a 17 pin connector. If the brain is unplugged/missing then it has no impact on the vehicle not starting. The only influence the theft deterrent system had on starting was to pull one side of the starter cut relay coil low to disable the starter signal.
Have you used a multimeter for any troubleshooting? It's a very simple system. The starter signal goes through the clutch interlock switch first before then passing through the starter cut relay...so if you have a problem with this switch, your bypass of the relay is irrelevant. Usually the rubber stopper that depresses the plunger deteriorated and prevents the switch from contacting.
Again, for your no start issue, you're not going to get very far without doing some actual troubleshooting with a multimeter.
While I can't identify the first immediate beep, the second one that comes on after approximately 15 seconds is absolutely the over rev/low oil/low coolant buzzer. Most common culprit is the coolant level sensor wire is broken, or there is air/low coolant in the system. Look for a brown wire on the passenger side near the radiator; it should be connected to the sensor in the top of the radiator, ground this wire and see if the beep goes away.
I bench tested several clusters last year and one had a failure with the over rev trigger (which is internal to the tacho). In fact I detailed this system in a recent thread, all 3 inputs to the buzzer are highlighted:
Again, for your no start issue, you're not going to get very far without doing some actual troubleshooting with a multimeter.
While I can't identify the first immediate beep, the second one that comes on after approximately 15 seconds is absolutely the over rev/low oil/low coolant buzzer. Most common culprit is the coolant level sensor wire is broken, or there is air/low coolant in the system. Look for a brown wire on the passenger side near the radiator; it should be connected to the sensor in the top of the radiator, ground this wire and see if the beep goes away.
I bench tested several clusters last year and one had a failure with the over rev trigger (which is internal to the tacho). In fact I detailed this system in a recent thread, all 3 inputs to the buzzer are highlighted:
today i checked the oil and it was full but I had to fill the radiator. i plugged the battery in and the long buzzer went away. i tried cranking the car and the voltmeter didn't even go down. i have a multimeter where do check first with the multimeter? the long other beep is coming from a black box next to the fuse box in the driver side
today i checked the oil and it was full but I had to fill the radiator. i plugged the battery in and the long buzzer went away. i tried cranking the car and the voltmeter didn't even go down. i have a multimeter where do check first with the multimeter? the long other beep is coming from a black box next to the fuse box in the driver side
Excellent...now we are getting somewhere .
The black box you're referencing should be the CPU. See picture below to confirm.
There are 3 buzzers in the CPU:
1. Light off reminder buzzer (when door is open).
2. Seat belt timer and buzzer.
3. Key reminder buzzer (when door is open).
As a sanity check, can you depress the door trigger with your hand or close the door when this is happening? This is also assuming your door trigger works, they tend to fail when they get old.
If you don't have a seatbelt warning light on, it likely is one of the other two (if not just a CPU failure). Can you probe pins H, L, and N? The FSM page on the CPU is very blurry/difficult to interpret.
You could also just unplug the key reminder harness under the ignition column. Should be a connector with 4 pins, looks like below:
In regards to your starting issue, have you done the sanity check of simply bridging the starter solenoid wire to the B+ terminal at the starter? Just use a long screwdriver, but ensure the vehicle is not in gear! You want to make sure the starter will actually turn. You could meter the starter wire at the starter directly, but if the test above proves the starter is working, chances are you have no voltage at this wire.
I would visually inspect the interlock switch/pedal. There are two switches on the clutch pedal, you want the one wayyyy high up and almost inaccessible. You should see a rubber stopper that will push the plunger on the switch when they meet. If you just see a hole the stopper has deteriorated, and the switch is never making contact which prevents the start signal from making it to the starter cut relay. You can also just meter for voltage on the thick B/G wire at the starter cut relay during cranking; since you bypassed the relay, you should also see voltage on B/W.
Last edited by DC5Daniel; May 27, 2020 at 02:43 PM.
The black box you're referencing should be the CPU. See picture below to confirm.
There are 3 buzzers in the CPU:
1. Light off reminder buzzer (when door is open).
2. Seat belt timer and buzzer.
3. Key reminder buzzer (when door is open).
As a sanity check, can you depress the door trigger with your hand or close the door when this is happening? This is also assuming your door trigger works, they tend to fail when they get old.
If you don't have a seatbelt warning light on, it likely is one of the other two (if not just a CPU failure). Can you probe pins H, L, and N? The FSM page on the CPU is very blurry/difficult to interpret.
You could also just unplug the key reminder harness under the ignition column. Should be a connector with 4 pins, looks like below:
In regards to your starting issue, have you done the sanity check of simply bridging the starter solenoid wire to the B+ terminal at the starter? Just use a long screwdriver, but ensure the vehicle is not in gear! You want to make sure the starter will actually turn. You could meter the starter wire at the starter directly, but if the test above proves the starter is working, chances are you have no voltage at this wire.
I would visually inspect the interlock switch/pedal. There are two switches on the clutch pedal, you want the one wayyyy high up and almost inaccessible. You should see a rubber stopper that will push the plunger on the switch when they meet. If you just see a hole the stopper has deteriorated, and the switch is never making contact which prevents the start signal from making it to the starter cut relay. You can also just meter for voltage on the thick B/G wire at the starter cut relay during cranking; since you bypassed the relay, you should also see voltage on B/W.
So are you going to acknowledge/try what I'm suggesting, or are you going to continue video blogging? Please respond with text, both to help you now and possibly others with similar problems in the future. Myself and others don't want to watch videos to communicate with you.
Is it possible that brake fluid corroded your wiring? Sure, wires corrode. Is it likely that penetrated the protective loom, tape, insulation, AND fully corroded the wire to the point of no electrical contact? No. Is it something we can troubleshoot with a multimeter like suggested...you bet it is!
As long as the transmission is in neutral, the lack of fluid in either reservoir is not going to prevent the car from starting, nor prevent us from troubleshooting properly.
Last edited by DC5Daniel; May 29, 2020 at 01:25 PM.
So are you going to acknowledge/try what I'm suggesting, or are you going to continue video blogging? Please respond with text, both to help you now and possibly others with similar problems in the future. Myself and others don't want to watch videos to communicate with you.
Is it possible that brake fluid corroded your wiring? Sure, wires corrode. Is it likely that penetrated the protective loom, tape, insulation, AND fully corroded the wire to the point of no electrical contact? No. Is it something we can troubleshoot with a multimeter like suggested...you bet it is!
As long as the transmission is in neutral, the lack of fluid in either reservoir is not going to prevent the car from starting, nor prevent us from troubleshooting properly.
sorry about that. I just thought it would help.
but i have been working on it. So great news. The starter works like a champ and it starts. I jumped the clutch switch and i pulled the starter and took it out to get tested. It was good. Put it back on.
I was looking around the engine bay and I see a solid black wire plug that is not plugged in to any thing. It’s located on the same loom as the alternator wires. I tried to look around it but I don’t see anywhere to plug it in. I’ll attach a picture. i decided to run a test light to it to see if it gets current in different key position and I attempted to crank it and it started. wow amazing.
I noticed the oil pressure was low and slowly go to zero.
Here is where it gets weird.
i turn the key to off and pulled the key. The car was still on. Then I pulled the test night from the random black plug and it is Still on. I then pulled the EGI fuse then it’s off.
I checked the oil and it’s to level
do you happen to know what this silver box is under the driver side dash?
Last edited by drifter_xs; May 29, 2020 at 06:26 PM.
but i have been working on it. So great news. The starter works like a champ and it starts. I jumped the clutch switch and i pulled the starter and took it out to get tested. It was good. Put it back on.
I was looking around the engine bay and I see a solid black wire plug that is not plugged in to any thing. It’s located on the same loom as the alternator wires. I tried to look around it but I don’t see anywhere to plug it in. I’ll attach a picture. i decided to run a test light to it to see if it gets current in different key position and I attempted to crank it and it started. wow amazing.
I noticed the oil pressure was low and slowly go to zero.
Here is where it gets weird.
i turn the key to off and pulled the key. The car was still on. Then I pulled the test night from the random black plug and it is Still on. I then pulled the EGI fuse then it’s off.
I checked the oil and it’s to level
do you happen to know what this silver box is under the driver side dash?
Success! Glad to hear it started. So to confirm, my suspicion was correct and the clutch interlock was at fault? Did you happen to see any mechanical failure? You can of course check the switch with your meter set to resistance/continuity.
Regarding the black wire without a plug, should be a black wire with a yellow stripe, you just can't see the stripe. This is the connector for a condenser (capacitor) for the ignition circuit. It is there for noise/ripple suppression on the B+ circuit, and was likely an EMI countermeasure during the design phase. The Condenser wires normally break. It is not critical to functionality. You might even see the condenser in the area. It may be bolted to the transmission near the slave cylinder. Looks like the picture below. That circuit is fused by the EGI fuse, but is ignition controlled and switched by the main relay; you should not have constant voltage (and obviously the car should not stay on with the key removed). Sounds like your ignition switch is going bad (somewhat normal with age).
Do not worry so much about the oil pressure...take it with a grain of salt. The oil pressure gauge does easily get damaged in these cars, though when it fails normally it pegs to max pressure; the oil pressure sender also goes bad and/or the terminal gets contaminated with oil and grime. You can test the gauge and the sender per the FSM. Disconnect the wire on the sender and connect to ground with a variable resistor box, or with discrete resistors of the values listed in the image below. To test the sender, just do a resistance measurement with your multimeter from the sender to ground when the vehicle is running and see if you get a believable figure.
The silver box under the dash looks like the power steering computer. It can also beep if something is wrong.
Last edited by DC5Daniel; May 29, 2020 at 09:48 PM.
Success! Glad to hear it started. So to confirm, my suspicion was correct and the clutch interlock was at fault? Did you happen to see any mechanical failure? You can of course check the switch with your meter set to resistance/continuity.
Regarding the black wire without a plug, should be a black wire with a yellow stripe, you just can't see the stripe. This is the connector for a condenser (capacitor) for the ignition circuit. It is there for noise/ripple suppression on the B+ circuit, and was likely an EMI countermeasure during the design phase. The Condenser wires normally break. It is not critical to functionality. You might even see the condenser in the area. It may be bolted to the transmission near the slave cylinder. Looks like the picture below. That circuit is fused by the EGI fuse, but is ignition controlled and switched by the main relay; you should not have constant voltage (and obviously the car should not stay on with the key removed). Sounds like your ignition switch is going bad (somewhat normal with age).
Do not worry so much about the oil pressure...take it with a grain of salt. The oil pressure gauge does easily get damaged in these cars, though when it fails normally it pegs to max pressure; the oil pressure sender also goes bad and/or the terminal gets contaminated with oil and grime. You can test the gauge and the sender per the FSM. Disconnect the wire on the sender and connect to ground with a variable resistor box, or with discrete resistors of the values listed in the image below. To test the sender, just do a resistance measurement with your multimeter from the sender to ground when the vehicle is running and see if you get a believable figure.
The silver box under the dash looks like the power steering computer. It can also beep if something is wrong.
that’s weird. When I connected a B+ to it was able to start the car and without it it wouldn’t even crank.
but I’ll look for the condenser and see if it’s connected else where or not connected at all or just plane missing.
i’ll get that ignition switch replaced. Good thing I ordered a lock set yesterday and the ignition has one attached.
the clutch interlock was a bitch to remove. Lol I took off the driver seat to make it easier to access the unit. I don’t remember what values I got from my multimeter but I know for sure it was not in the FSM range and it was time to replace it.
that random clip is what’s weirding me out now. B+ made my car crank.
that’s weird. When I connected a B+ to it was able to start the car and without it it wouldn’t even crank.
but I’ll look for the condenser and see if it’s connected else where or not connected at all or just plane missing.
i’ll get that ignition switch replaced. Good thing I ordered a lock set yesterday and the ignition has one attached.
the clutch interlock was a bitch to remove. Lol I took off the driver seat to make it easier to access the unit. I don’t remember what values I got from my multimeter but I know for sure it was not in the FSM range and it was time to replace it.
that random clip is what’s weirding me out now. B+ made my car crank.
See this thread (which also links to another thread) regarding engine not turning off when key removed. Ignition switch was the original suspect, but after replacement issue remained. Just wanted to give you the information to try something else, if necessary. Both issues were the result of a previous owner misconnecting harnesses under the dash.
Your statements regarding the black/yellow wire confuse me. Originally is sounds like you only attached a test light to observe the behavior on the suspect wire. However, you last state "B+ made my car crank". So did you apply B+ to this wire, or are you making an observation that when there is B+ present on this wire the car cranks?
You could having a faulty main relay which is not engaging sometimes (no B+ on the ignition circuit) and then sticking other times (car keeps running with no key). Do you know what the main relay looks like and can you probe its harness? Do you know how to use the FSM now to find the schematic, or do you still need help with that?
See this thread (which also links to another thread) regarding engine not turning off when key removed. Ignition switch was the original suspect, but after replacement issue remained. Just wanted to give you the information to try something else, if necessary. Both issues were the result of a previous owner misconnecting harnesses under the dash.
Your statements regarding the black/yellow wire confuse me. Originally is sounds like you only attached a test light to observe the behavior on the suspect wire. However, you last state "B+ made my car crank". So did you apply B+ to this wire, or are you making an observation that when there is B+ present on this wire the car cranks?
You could having a faulty main relay which is not engaging sometimes (no B+ on the ignition circuit) and then sticking other times (car keeps running with no key). Do you know what the main relay looks like and can you probe its harness? Do you know how to use the FSM now to find the schematic, or do you still need help with that?
the clutch interlock was a problem. i checked resistance per FSM and it was due for replacement. since its a pain in the *** to take off and I can imagine how much more of a pain it is to put it back on, I just decided to jump it
this morning I attempted to start the car and it cranked but no start. then I cranked it again and it started and died. still hearing the long beep that never ends. i didn't do anything special. just tried to crank it. to see if I got lucky yesterday
i was wrong about the black clip! i checked the clip and its getting B+ 12v at all key positions and even when its off. but its not plugged into anything. but now my car cranks like everything is okay but just doesn't stay running
i found that condenser capacitor and its plugged into the same wire loom as the ignition coil
im going to change out the main relay. I have an extra in storage for sure. But I’ll check the relay in the car if it’s faulty and I’ll report back.
the main relay in the car engages when I connect the battery I can hear it really well and so other relays. Maybe like two or three more. I just hear engage. Is that normal. I don’t remember my old one doing that
yeah I can handle the FSM. I’ll proble the main relay on the car and report back.
i asl so saw this damaged relay under the the driver side dash and loose plug next to it. is it another EGI relay? and what is the other plug next to itwith the yellow wire? i cant find it on the diagram
Last edited by drifter_xs; May 30, 2020 at 02:12 PM.
Just now I checked for vacuum leaks and I fixed A suspected leak from a clamp. Sprayed some carb start lol and it started. And stayed on. Let it warm up for a bit then I tried to turn it off.
I pulled the key and the car was on.
pulled the room fuse 7.5 car turned off
started it again and pulled the key
pulled BTN fuse in the main- nothing car stayed on
put back the fuse then pulled EGI car turned off
started the car pulled the key now I pull the
Power steering fuse and the long beep dies but the car is still on. So I put it back and pull the 15A engine fuse and the car dies.
See this thread (which also links to another thread) regarding engine not turning off when key removed. Ignition switch was the original suspect, but after replacement issue remained. Just wanted to give you the information to try something else, if necessary. Both issues were the result of a previous owner
Update this morning I started the car and let It run for a while. I then pull the key and yes. Still running and the long beep is still there. I started to pull the connection on the ignition switch and nothing. PullEd a plug see if the car dies and nothing still on and I did this with all the plugs to the ignition. So I guess ignition is good.
the clutch interlock was a problem. i checked resistance per FSM and it was due for replacement. since its a pain in the *** to take off and I can imagine how much more of a pain it is to put it back on, I just decided to jump it
this morning I attempted to start the car and it cranked but no start. then I cranked it again and it started and died. still hearing the long beep that never ends. i didn't do anything special. just tried to crank it. to see if I got lucky yesterday
i was wrong about the black clip! i checked the clip and its getting B+ 12v at all key positions and even when its off. but its not plugged into anything. but now my car cranks like everything is okay but just doesn't stay running
i found that condenser capacitor and its plugged into the same wire loom as the ignition coil
im going to change out the main relay. I have an extra in storage for sure. But I’ll check the relay in the car if it’s faulty and I’ll report back.
the main relay in the car engages when I connect the battery I can hear it really well and so other relays. Maybe like two or three more. I just hear engage. Is that normal. I don’t remember my old one doing that
yeah I can handle the FSM. I’ll proble the main relay on the car and report back.
i asl so saw this damaged relay under the the driver side dash and loose plug next to it. is it another EGI relay? and what is the other plug next to itwith the yellow wire? i cant find it on the diagram
Confirm this black connector by the fusebox is not the wire in question. From your pic looks like a dirty white connector?
No, that is not normal for the main relay to engage when the battery is connected. The coil energizes with ignition. See schematic.
What you show under the dash looks like the circuit opening relay, when enables the fuel pump.
Originally Posted by Jadidiah Ladores
Just now I checked for vacuum leaks and I fixed A suspected leak from a clamp. Sprayed some carb start lol and it started. And stayed on. Let it warm up for a bit then I tried to turn it off.
I pulled the key and the car was on.
pulled the room fuse 7.5 car turned off
started it again and pulled the key
pulled BTN fuse in the main- nothing car stayed on
put back the fuse then pulled EGI car turned off
started the car pulled the key now I pull the
Power steering fuse and the long beep dies but the car is still on. So I put it back and pull the 15A engine fuse and the car dies.
You think it’s a stuck relay?
As mentioned previously (I think), the power steering computer can cause a beep. Can you try just unplugging the power steering computer?
Makes sense the EGI fuse(s) kill the car, they fuse power to the ECU, coils, injectors.
As mentioned above and as show with the schematic, you have a problem if the main relay is engaged with just battery (no ignition). I would specifically probe B/W on the relay. If it has voltage with no key, unplug the main relay and probe again; this will tell you if your issue is upstream" or "downstream".
Last edited by DC5Daniel; May 31, 2020 at 12:15 PM.
Confirm this black connector by the fusebox is not the wire in question. From your pic looks like a dirty white connector?
No, that is not normal for the main relay to engage when the battery is connected. The coil energizes with ignition. See schematic.
What you show under the dash looks like the circuit opening relay, when enables the fuel pump.
As mentioned previously (I think), the power steering computer can cause a beep. Can you try just unplugging the power steering computer?
Makes sense the EGI fuse(s) kill the car, they fuse power to the ECU, coils, injectors.
As mentioned above and as show with the schematic, you have a problem if the main relay is engaged with just battery (no ignition). I would specifically probe B/W on the relay. If it has voltage with no key, unplug the main relay and probe again; this will tell you if your issue is upstream" or "downstream".
cool ill unplug the power steering computer. would there be a negative effect on the car when I disconnect it?
ill get the main relay checked today. thank for your help trying to get thins figured out
Confirm this black connector by the fusebox is not the wire in question. From your pic looks like a dirty white connector?
No, that is not normal for the main relay to engage when the battery is connected. The coil energizes with ignition. See schematic.
What you show under the dash looks like the circuit opening relay, when enables the fuel pump.
As mentioned previously (I think), the power steering computer can cause a beep. Can you try just unplugging the power steering computer?
Makes sense the EGI fuse(s) kill the car, they fuse power to the ECU, coils, injectors.
As mentioned above and as show with the schematic, you have a problem if the main relay is engaged with just battery (no ignition). I would specifically probe B/W on the relay. If it has voltage with no key, unplug the main relay and probe again; this will tell you if your issue is upstream" or "downstream".
problem solved!! Wooooo it was two wire plug that was looped into the same loom by the clutch. i unplugged it and all the relays disengaged.
now the car doesn’t stay on after warm up lol
but it starts and shuts off like a champ it’s great wooooo
See this thread (which also links to another thread) regarding engine not turning off when key removed. Ignition switch was the original suspect, but after replacement issue remained. Just wanted to give you the information to try something else, if necessary. Both issues were the result of a previous owner misconnecting harnesses under the dash.
Your statements regarding the black/yellow wire confuse me. Originally is sounds like you only attached a test light to observe the behavior on the suspect wire. However, you last state "B+ made my car crank". So did you apply B+ to this wire, or are you making an observation that when there is B+ present on this wire the car cranks?
You could having a faulty main relay which is not engaging sometimes (no B+ on the ignition circuit) and then sticking other times (car keeps running with no key). Do you know what the main relay looks like and can you probe its harness? Do you know how to use the FSM now to find the schematic, or do you still need help with that?
Originally Posted by drifter_xs
problem solved!! Wooooo it was two wire plug that was looped into the same loom by the clutch. i unplugged it and all the relays disengaged.
now the car doesn’t stay on after warm up lol
but it starts and shuts off like a champ it’s great wooooo
Excellent...so the issue is simliar/same as what I linked above.
$50 amazon gift card for the individual that’s gets the solution right. 🤣
You going to share the love, or take all the credit?
Can you identify which connector this was (picture, wire colors, etc.). This will be good for helping someone in the future.
Last edited by DC5Daniel; Jun 9, 2020 at 09:23 AM.
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