problem with brand new 20b crate motor
07-17-10, 01:20 AM
#1
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problem with brand new 20b crate motor
I have a problem with my 20b. I tried to turn my motor over yesterday while its on the engine stand waiting to go in the car. The motor was built by a very reputable company that I will not disclose as I don't want to damage their reputation. The motor used new rotor housings, new side housings, new e-shaft, new 13brew rotors new bearings everything new and the motor has 0 miles its just sitting on the stand waiting to go in.
I decided to spin the motor the other day as it sat on the stand like i have before and i got to one full rotation and it got stuck. puzzeled i decided to spin it the other way. It was fine till exactly 360 degrees in the opposite direction. I contacted my motor builder and he said its probably just a sticking seal because the motor is new. I tried to spin it past and finally was able to do so but it took a breaker bar to do it. after that it spins but its rough at that one point so I took off the exhaust manifold to take a peak. The point that it always gets stuck at is where the seal starts to make contact with the exhaust port. after getting it past that point this is what I saw. do i need to have the motor redone? it looks like the apex seal is pinched to me. What do you guys think?
I decided to spin the motor the other day as it sat on the stand like i have before and i got to one full rotation and it got stuck. puzzeled i decided to spin it the other way. It was fine till exactly 360 degrees in the opposite direction. I contacted my motor builder and he said its probably just a sticking seal because the motor is new. I tried to spin it past and finally was able to do so but it took a breaker bar to do it. after that it spins but its rough at that one point so I took off the exhaust manifold to take a peak. The point that it always gets stuck at is where the seal starts to make contact with the exhaust port. after getting it past that point this is what I saw. do i need to have the motor redone? it looks like the apex seal is pinched to me. What do you guys think?
07-17-10, 03:39 AM
#2
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so i decided to play with the motor a little more and pressed on that seal as well as the rest in the motor. the seal in the picture is definetly pinched it will not move at all. the rest move very well. I honestly thought i wouldn't have to do a rebuild so soon. i thought i would at least get to start the motor up once before i had to rebuild it. lol the things we go through for these motors.
07-17-10, 08:22 AM
#3
Somebody did not assemble the engine properly, and did not bother the spec out/ clearance the components. It is standard operating procedure to rotate an engine while it is on the stand immediate after rebuild, just to make sure nothing is binding.
You have a pinched apex seal groove, the engine needs to come apart.
You have a pinched apex seal groove, the engine needs to come apart.
07-17-10, 01:58 PM
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well it did spin just fine till the other day. Ive spun it before many times and it was fine, so I would think something got in the motor but there was nothing in the intake port, exhaust port or the manifolds. How difficult is it to remove the bur on the rotor? is the rotor going or be reusable?
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07-17-10, 10:20 PM
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the weird part is that there is nothing inside the exhaust manifold and exhaust ports, intake manifold and intake ports or inside the housing. it jsut go stuck on the housing right before the apex seals opens to let the exhaust out of the rotor housing. the rest of the seals don't have that problem. just that one. and it binds only at that one point. the other unusual part is that it isnt scratching the inside of the housing like there is any debris.
07-18-10, 03:41 AM
#10
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the weird part is that there is nothing inside the exhaust manifold and exhaust ports, intake manifold and intake ports or inside the housing. it jsut go stuck on the housing right before the apex seals opens to let the exhaust out of the rotor housing. the rest of the seals don't have that problem. just that one. and it binds only at that one point. the other unusual part is that it isnt scratching the inside of the housing like there is any debris.
07-18-10, 09:20 AM
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im out of okc. Im not holding the engine builder responsible because the motor has been sitting for years so something may have gotten in it. granted I found nothing and i baby it to the point that i keep it wrapped up inside my room.
07-18-10, 09:51 AM
#12
There will be a corresponding mark on the rotor housing, somewhere. Keep in mind that the rotors are not supposed to come in contact with the housings or irons, this is the what the apex, side and corner seals are for.
The picture you posted is upside down. When you first forced it beyond the binding point were you rotating the engine forward or backward? Which rotor is it (front, middle, rear)? Where is the damaged rotor apex in the cycle when you now get to the "rough" spot"?
I stopped by the shop last night and heard your message. Elaine will return your call on Monday, but the only thing we can do is rebuild the engine. Like I said previously it has to come apart to repair. We would charge you for a complete rebuild as we can not trust anything that some other builder did and would have to spec out everything and replace every seal.
Something was done wrong in the assembly and should be repaired by whoever you had build the engine. If you can not work it out with them, we can build it for you.
The picture you posted is upside down. When you first forced it beyond the binding point were you rotating the engine forward or backward? Which rotor is it (front, middle, rear)? Where is the damaged rotor apex in the cycle when you now get to the "rough" spot"?
I stopped by the shop last night and heard your message. Elaine will return your call on Monday, but the only thing we can do is rebuild the engine. Like I said previously it has to come apart to repair. We would charge you for a complete rebuild as we can not trust anything that some other builder did and would have to spec out everything and replace every seal.
Something was done wrong in the assembly and should be repaired by whoever you had build the engine. If you can not work it out with them, we can build it for you.
07-18-10, 10:16 AM
#13
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^ True. The motor has been sitting for years and something got into it.
I hope he is taking your advice if anything... The place who you paid to build the motor should have no problem taking a look at it.
I hope he is taking your advice if anything... The place who you paid to build the motor should have no problem taking a look at it.
07-18-10, 10:22 AM
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I don't remember what direction i spun it when it bound up. There is just one point in the housing that it feels rough, and that is at the bottom of the exhaust port right before the seal clears the exhaust port to let the exhaust gas by. and it only hangs up on one of the seals. the rest spin by just fine.
I will talk with my builder on Monday and see what he can do. If that doesnt work then i will have banzai do it.
I will talk with my builder on Monday and see what he can do. If that doesnt work then i will have banzai do it.
07-19-10, 10:24 AM
#19
Unfortunately it does not matter if there is 0 mileage on the motor, you really cannot expect your builder to warranty the engine forever, just because you have not installed it.
The worse thing you can do with any engine is let it sit. It does not matter how much assembly lube is used it migrates to the lower portions of the engine. This allows the stationary gear bearings to "dry" out, along with all the seals. Another problem is the increased likelyhood for rust to form on the irons, rotors and e-shaft if left open to the air. Not to mention the chance of seals becoming stuck in the compressed positions.
We ship all of our engines will lots of lube and every opening sealed with vinyl tape, this still would not mean it could be stored indefinitely.
07-19-10, 11:25 AM
#20
the mazda zoom zoom store
you should have never used a breakerbar to spin the motor, thats were the damage to the rotor occur. My guess is you let the motor sit too long, now you will need to talk to the builder to see what you can work out. Another problem could have been the clearance of the 3mm seals on the rotor
07-19-10, 02:54 PM
#21
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they aren't arent 3mm seals. the motor still had lots of lube as a matter of fact on inspection it was still pooling in the rotor housings. I will see what the engine builder can do If not then I will take it to another company. thanks for the info guys
07-19-10, 10:33 PM
#22
There's no way you can see 360 degrees around the housing. If you could not crank the engine by hand then obviously something is stuck and when you forced it you obviously broke/scratched something. I bet there is a good scuff mark in the housing and seal. Good luck and hope it's not too bad.
No one in their right mind is going to warranty a motor that has sat for "years"...... just how many are we talking here?
07-20-10, 08:53 AM
#23
the mazda zoom zoom store
Your best bet is to talk to the builder, I'm sure he will help you out. Plus if you take it to another shop be prepared to spend more money on the rebuild.
