Dizzy rotor button melt down question
08-11-09, 08:22 PM
#1
Dizzy rotor button melt down question
Has anybody seen this before? I discovered it when I was transplanting the dizzy from my old reliable White One, which had recently lost power, into the Silver One, who's dizzy was not making me happy. When I took the distributor cap off some stuff came out and I discovered this:
Cap looks normal
Any body seen this? Looks like Old School to me.
Cap looks normal
Any body seen this? Looks like Old School to me.
08-11-09, 08:32 PM
#2
Looks HOT lol...
Ive honestly had lots of weird problems with dizzy caps/rotors. From busted rotor "legs" to melted sections like you experienced. The weird thing is it seems like hit and miss. At least for me. I make sure everything is good (mounted properly) and sometimes they last a good amount of time and other times it will blow itself up in less than 100 miles or just suddenly **** out after 5000 miles.
Ive honestly had lots of weird problems with dizzy caps/rotors. From busted rotor "legs" to melted sections like you experienced. The weird thing is it seems like hit and miss. At least for me. I make sure everything is good (mounted properly) and sometimes they last a good amount of time and other times it will blow itself up in less than 100 miles or just suddenly **** out after 5000 miles.
08-11-09, 09:46 PM
#6
mustve had resistance or build up or wear perhaps on the inner ground flat connections and since electricity is lazy it goes the shortest route to discharge probably on the dizzy rotor stem ground which caused high heat which melted your distributor rotor.
ive had cracks on the "legs" as well and now i just discovered the base of my new one i just bought today is cracked around the ground pins. why cant all mazda dealers stock up on our old parts? i had to drive to my third furthest mazda dealer just to pick up a rotor
ive had cracks on the "legs" as well and now i just discovered the base of my new one i just bought today is cracked around the ground pins. why cant all mazda dealers stock up on our old parts? i had to drive to my third furthest mazda dealer just to pick up a rotor
08-11-09, 09:48 PM
#7
Yeah but Ben, what made it do that? That was a perfectly functioning rotor button when it quit.
There was some kind of evil event that came down and struck the White One last Monday. A brand new rotor button would have done that under the circumstances. It's like something possessed the White One that day and blew out her rotor button.
There was some kind of evil event that came down and struck the White One last Monday. A brand new rotor button would have done that under the circumstances. It's like something possessed the White One that day and blew out her rotor button.
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08-12-09, 11:02 AM
#8
Lightning strike? (just kidding)
If one of the internal brass or copper conductors (which connect the top-center rotor contact to the lower arms) cracked inside the rotor body, electricity would be arcing across the gap with every plug firing.
Arcs create high heat (otherwise spark plugs wouldn't work), which will both widen the gap, and also melt the plastic. Keeps getting hotter and wider until it reaches the point that it's too wide to carry the arc.
It also would have made things quite warm inside the the cap. I can't see the button too clearly in the picture, but it could have overheated or started binding to the top of the rotor (due to molten plastic inside the dizzy flying all around) which would wear it down/melt it pretty fast. Or it might have been off-center, dramatically increasing friction on the button.
If one of the internal brass or copper conductors (which connect the top-center rotor contact to the lower arms) cracked inside the rotor body, electricity would be arcing across the gap with every plug firing.
Arcs create high heat (otherwise spark plugs wouldn't work), which will both widen the gap, and also melt the plastic. Keeps getting hotter and wider until it reaches the point that it's too wide to carry the arc.
It also would have made things quite warm inside the the cap. I can't see the button too clearly in the picture, but it could have overheated or started binding to the top of the rotor (due to molten plastic inside the dizzy flying all around) which would wear it down/melt it pretty fast. Or it might have been off-center, dramatically increasing friction on the button.
08-12-09, 11:12 AM
#9
It certainly looks like a lightning strike!
DD the damage seems to be limited to the rotor button, neither the cap or the dizzy itself show any evidence of damage, including the carbon contact at the top of the cap. A lot of heat or electrical arching would seem to be the cause, but I can't figure out why that happened, there was no evidence of overheating in the engine (I have both the stock electrical and an add on mechanical temp gauges working at the time it happened, all was normal).
What I am most curious about is whether this had anything to do with the loss of power and compression in the rear rotor that happened while I was traveling out on the highway. I can't figure out a way to connect the two and I can't really be sure they happened at the same time but it sure is suspicious.
Both the loss of compression that sidelined the White One and that damage to the rotor button would seem to be fatal, so I don't see how they can be separated but I guess I could test that by installing the rotor into a functioning engine.
DD the damage seems to be limited to the rotor button, neither the cap or the dizzy itself show any evidence of damage, including the carbon contact at the top of the cap. A lot of heat or electrical arching would seem to be the cause, but I can't figure out why that happened, there was no evidence of overheating in the engine (I have both the stock electrical and an add on mechanical temp gauges working at the time it happened, all was normal).
What I am most curious about is whether this had anything to do with the loss of power and compression in the rear rotor that happened while I was traveling out on the highway. I can't figure out a way to connect the two and I can't really be sure they happened at the same time but it sure is suspicious.
Both the loss of compression that sidelined the White One and that damage to the rotor button would seem to be fatal, so I don't see how they can be separated but I guess I could test that by installing the rotor into a functioning engine.
08-12-09, 11:32 AM
#10
Waffles - hmmm good
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When all that arcing occurred it could have fired a plug at just the wrong
time and possibly cause a severe misfire that then took out one of the
old seals on the rear rotor.
Ray did you lose all compression on the rear rotor or just two faces?
That remonds me I better replace my cap/rotor soon.
time and possibly cause a severe misfire that then took out one of the
old seals on the rear rotor.
Ray did you lose all compression on the rear rotor or just two faces?
That remonds me I better replace my cap/rotor soon.
08-12-09, 11:39 AM
#11
My mistake; when you said "button" I was thinking of the carbon button in the top of the cap. What you call the button I just call the rotor. Terminal error on my part.
The top contact and lower arms on the rotor; are they for the leading or trailing circuit? (I don't have any way to check ATM)
The top contact and lower arms on the rotor; are they for the leading or trailing circuit? (I don't have any way to check ATM)
08-12-09, 11:44 AM
#12
I did a ghetto compression test, here's the videos. Basically I couldn't hear any swoosh on the back rotor, which was consistent with the gross loss of power, so I just figured it was toast. But I'm getting more curious now, I think I'll put a compression tester on that rear rotor to answer your question Tim.
DD I believe the top arms are trailing and lower are leading, however at the time I had my 2GDFI hooked up so the leading were direct fire, bypassing the dizzy and the trailing wires were moved to the leading ports on the dizzy, which would be the lower ones on the rotor button arms.
Symptoms:
Plugs show lean burn:
Front and rear rotor compression "tests"
DD I believe the top arms are trailing and lower are leading, however at the time I had my 2GDFI hooked up so the leading were direct fire, bypassing the dizzy and the trailing wires were moved to the leading ports on the dizzy, which would be the lower ones on the rotor button arms.
Symptoms:
Plugs show lean burn:
Front and rear rotor compression "tests"
08-12-09, 12:16 PM
#15
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OEM cap and rotor? stuff like this is pretty common on other mazda's...
08-12-09, 12:38 PM
#16
Thanks for the tip Tim, I'll give that a try when I get home.
You are right Ben, those plugs were getting a few miles on them, I thought the white deposits indicated it was a bit lean and I had recently adjusted the mixture, but maybe that's just a coincidence.
I'm not sure but I doubt the cap and rotor are OEM, I'll check to see if the terminals on the cap are copper like the OEM ones.
This is getting interesting.
You are right Ben, those plugs were getting a few miles on them, I thought the white deposits indicated it was a bit lean and I had recently adjusted the mixture, but maybe that's just a coincidence.
I'm not sure but I doubt the cap and rotor are OEM, I'll check to see if the terminals on the cap are copper like the OEM ones.
This is getting interesting.
08-12-09, 12:57 PM
#17
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you're never gonna get a good plug read unless you kill the car at idle mid or wot to determine. DOnt believe the myths though porcelain does not always tell the tale of jetting but the base ring does. your base ring is only 1/3d black it should be 270 for optimal jetting depends how you run the motor. when i pull wot in my z bare in minds i runs 6's so they are hot. The porcelain is so hot it stays white. but the afr and base ring says 13.8
Do your car a favor change plugs and cap rotor annually cheap insurance.
Do your car a favor change plugs and cap rotor annually cheap insurance.
08-12-09, 01:22 PM
#18
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Ray
I think that whenever you are looking at heat buildup in the ignition system, it usually comes down to grounding. Whether the issue is the plugs (fouled, or otherwise not flowing the juice correctly), or engine grounding (probably the most likely suspect), or bad cables, it should theoretically give the same results.
I think that whenever you are looking at heat buildup in the ignition system, it usually comes down to grounding. Whether the issue is the plugs (fouled, or otherwise not flowing the juice correctly), or engine grounding (probably the most likely suspect), or bad cables, it should theoretically give the same results.
08-12-09, 02:31 PM
#20
Okay, so the normally-leading contacts on the dizzy were being used for trailing... I'd bet a cookie looking at that damage that you were only firing trailing at best every other firing event, and it quite possibly could have been munging up the timing of that firing, too.
Normally, loss of trailing isn't terminal... but firing off-cycle or intermittently might produce a perceived drop in power under load. Bad enough, it would maybe feel like a misfire.
I hope it turns out your old engie is actually fine - - even though it'd be quite a pisser to have put all this time into an unnecessary swap.
Normally, loss of trailing isn't terminal... but firing off-cycle or intermittently might produce a perceived drop in power under load. Bad enough, it would maybe feel like a misfire.
I hope it turns out your old engie is actually fine - - even though it'd be quite a pisser to have put all this time into an unnecessary swap.
08-12-09, 02:43 PM
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I just watched the video ray. It sounds like nothing on the back. sounds like either 2 apex or a side seal bit the dust. that one has got a butt load of miles does it not?
Its weird though every time i have popped a rotor the engine looks like its gonna jump out and run away.
Its weird though every time i have popped a rotor the engine looks like its gonna jump out and run away.
08-12-09, 02:45 PM
#23
i have run trailing of leading side when using direct fire for years without a issue.
My car has part-time trailing ignition (part of the smog setup; ) I can hear, and to a small degree feel, when it is operating and when it is not. Subtle but noticeable change in engine sound.
I wonder if firing trailing sufficiently out-of-phase could lead to seal failure? Just theorizing.
08-12-09, 02:51 PM
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it can fire the rotor backwards if it happens before leading and if its to far behind it can fire right into a seal. But i dont think the pot can be adjusted far enough for the later but it can fire before the leading causing a kick back.
08-12-09, 02:57 PM
#25
Thanks for the feedback guys, this is very helpful. Ben after seeing that test on the back rotor I was pretty convinced it was toast, the front one swoooshes a nice even three beat, but the back one doesn't swoosh at all. In fact I was so convinced I didn't even bother with the compression test.
But now that I've discovered this issue with the dizzy I'm wondering if there might of been a connection. Maybe a miracle will happen and it will turn out that the engine in the White One is fine, just an ignition problem. That explanation sure would fit the symptoms better, the car was running fine and strong, absolutely no indication anything was wrong until all of a sudden it lost power out on the freeway at 80 mph. When it happened I was pretty sure it was in the ignition because it was so sudden, probably the leading igniter, but turns out that was OK. But now I'm wondering what that mess in the dizzy might have had to do with it...
I'm going to throw a battery back in the white one and have a closer look at that back rotor (or just use Tim's method and crank it by hand and feel/listen for the swooosh). I want to be real sure that rear rotor is bad before we tear into it. This wouldn't be the first time the 12A in the White One has been declared dead prematurely.
And if it is still good, well that's a problem I wouldn't mind having. Sure I've invested a lot of time swapping everything to the Silver Car, but I don't mind, it's been fun, the White One can use a rest and the Silver One can get a workout.
But now that I've discovered this issue with the dizzy I'm wondering if there might of been a connection. Maybe a miracle will happen and it will turn out that the engine in the White One is fine, just an ignition problem. That explanation sure would fit the symptoms better, the car was running fine and strong, absolutely no indication anything was wrong until all of a sudden it lost power out on the freeway at 80 mph. When it happened I was pretty sure it was in the ignition because it was so sudden, probably the leading igniter, but turns out that was OK. But now I'm wondering what that mess in the dizzy might have had to do with it...
I'm going to throw a battery back in the white one and have a closer look at that back rotor (or just use Tim's method and crank it by hand and feel/listen for the swooosh). I want to be real sure that rear rotor is bad before we tear into it. This wouldn't be the first time the 12A in the White One has been declared dead prematurely.
And if it is still good, well that's a problem I wouldn't mind having. Sure I've invested a lot of time swapping everything to the Silver Car, but I don't mind, it's been fun, the White One can use a rest and the Silver One can get a workout.