hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

I love reading about different cars, and seeing how they compare and contrast, and for that reason I thought to post this in the discussion section to see what opinions people have. My 83' GS is the first car I've ever driven/owned with manual steering and I have to admit (maybe I'm in the minority), that I love the steering. Admittedly I don't like the on-center play, but it's very minor and I enjoy the steering everywhere aside from the highway generally. In the mountains the steering is communicative and has a lot of feel (as far as I know). While the ratio is slow, this makes it more involved for me because it requires yanking the wheel around, especially at slower speeds. I feel the steering progressively get heavier as the wheel is turned more, and once the front wheels hit ice, water, gravel or anything I can feel the loss in grip. I'm aware that a good manual rack and pinion setup would have all this and more, but that's not what we have. I find that 50% of the cars that I like (enough to consider owning someday) have recirculating ball steering, is our steering completely irredeemable, or do other people find enjoyment in it as well?

- In terms of "feel" and "feedback" how does the SA/FB compare to other cars?

- How does the SA/FB's steering compare to cars like the Alfa Romeo Giulia GTV or BMW 2002? I always hear that both these cars have good steering with nice feedback (and both have worm and roller/recirculating ball steering boxes), however rarely do people praise our steering. Is it better, the same, worse? How does the SA/FB's steering compare to other worm and roller/recirculating ball setups?

- How does the SA/FB's steering compare to a "good" manual rack and pinion car? Cars like the Mk1/Mk2 Ford Escort, Fiat X1/9, Toyota MR2 AW11, classic Porsche 911s, etc are always praised for their good manual rack and pinion setups.

I know everyone always complains about our steering, but it's simply a joy to drive compared to my beater 02' Outback that I drive when my RX-7 is being worked on or it's snowing or something. The steering on that car (hydraulic rack and pinion) is simply horrid. The car has okay on-center feel (especially compared to my FB), but there is absolutely zero feel anywhere in the steering, instilling very little confidence when turning. I drove my 300ZX briefly before selling it, and I was amazed at the speed and precision of the steering, but the steering felt numb and dead. Everything I've read is that modern EPS setups are miserable to drive as many completely lack "feel" and "feedback" compared to older manual or hydraulic setups.

I hope this doesn't ruffle any feathers, I didn't post this in the tech section, because I was just looking for an open discussion and for people to expression their opinions. There's no real "answer" to this thread, just hoping to discuss (this is a forum after all).

7aull

iTrader: (2)

I think you and me are Blinded by Love. There are some a-m-a-z-i-n-g-steering cars out there (and I don't mean just supercars), and I can live with the fact my 80SA isn't one of them (well, yet. I have an R&P kit I will drop in it one day!). austin minis, New Mini, X1/9... its a long list. My son bought a new Subie WRX and it turns on rails, I mean, you just THINK about turning and its there... (so maybe yours just needs some love? and $).
So: RX7? good, not great. This will be a shock to no one. I think its nicely balanced chassis, with correct suspension tweaks (which I note you have been doing - and telling - thanks!) can make up for this a LOT.
OK - and for me - something that gets overlooked: a nice meaty steering wheel is G-O-L-D. The stock one is pretty nice to hang on to, but the leather version is pure **** in your (well, my) hands. It and the shifter (****) are the 2 most direct connections with the driving experience. And your butt if course.

Stu Aull
80GS
Alaska

Banzai

iTrader: (13)

Stu, you should paint that faded / weathered plastic surround on that hatch release button. Nice shot though!

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

Mine looks the same, so back off!

As to the steering, I think its great, as good as most cars from the era that had
worm gear steering. I think some of the cars you mention are not at a price point
that younger folks can get ahold of them and make them daily or semi daily drivers.
This point is important because these younger buyers CAN get their hands on
rx7s fairly easily and they can make decent drivers for minimal $$$. That being the
case, this generation has never driven anything without power assist and
for that matter rack and pinion, so of course the 7s steering feels weird on center
and heavy when its slow. I think thats where a lot of this noise about the steering
comes from.

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the responses guys, glad I didn't get any "my FB has half a foot of play and is undriveable" responses, obviously the steering has to be maintained.

I guess more or less what I was getting at was how does the SA/FB stand in terms of overall steering "feel" and "feedback"? Obviously speed and precision are not it's strong suit (although not terrible by any means). I actually enjoy turning my FB into a corner, and it's not just because of the way the car handles, but it's the way the steering reacts and how it feeds back information to me, the driver. Especially compared to a modern car, I think that the feel of the SA/FB's manual steering is really great. While the steering on my 300ZX was fast and precise, I never enjoyed steering the car and moving the steering wheel the way I do on this car. Maybe you guys don't have any experience with real modern EPS cars (I really don't either), but I can tell you all other cars I've driven pale in comparison by feel.

Best thing I have done so far for the steering was tires, followed by steering linkage. My linkage was not that worn out all things considered. I have a feeling I'll be really impressed once I get the car back together having done ball-joints and polyurethane all around on the front.

I don't understand the complaining about the steering being slow, I like it to a degree since it requires more input from the driver, thus increasing improvement. Previously to driving this car I had never driven a manual steering car, and it was my second steering box car, I had driven my grandfather's C3 Corvette with power steering before. I love the heavy feeling and feedback from the road, I feel connected to the road like no other car I've ever driven. I don't like the dead/numb feeling on-center, but I have very little play, so I really shouldn't be complaining. In fact for regular street driving, and spirited "fun" driving, I think the only real advantage that I can see to rack and pinion would be the better on-center feel. This may be a different story for motor-sports for instance rallying, but our cars were no slouch in endurance road-racing (or the RX-2/RX-3 for that matter), so obviously the steering wasn't holding anyone back there either.

With the exception of the Mazda Cosmo and Datsun 240Z, it seems that nearly all vintage Japanese cars had recirculating ball steering. Even the Hakosuka (C10) Skyline (which I've always admired and wanted to own someday) has a steering box. European cars seemed to pick up rack and pinion faster, with "sporty" cars like the Ford Escort MK2 and Opel Kadett C being notable examples of contemporaries of the RX-7 in the late 70's with manual rack and pinion.

I considered a lot of cars before buying my RX-7, I was even playing around with the idea of getting an 05' Lotus Elise (but ultimately I could not justify the cost and figured I wouldn't drive it very much), but I knew I wanted something with manual steering. I'm ultimately happy with that decision. As I said above, the steering really adds to the car and the experience in my opinion. I can't say I wouldn't jump on a nice manual rack and pinion setup if one existed, but it's not because the steering is horrible in stock form, just simply because it'd be nice to have something a bit better and more maintainable.

7aull

iTrader: (2)

That's "patina", you picky Bastid....


Stu

DivinDriver

iTrader: (15)

FWD was one of the main motivators of R&P steering. Costs more to make, but takes up less room and gives somewhat better mechanical advantage to counter torque-steer in the center position, which early FWD's had in abundance.

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

Yea, when I was doing some research on this awhile ago, I was surprised that the Nissan Cherry had rack and pinion steering, while the Nissan Skyline from the same period had recirculating ball. I think the Lancia Fulvia has recirculating ball, but it has a longitudinally mounted engine, so packaging and torque-steer are probably largely non-issues.

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

I like how only two people bothered to defend the steering Oh well, I took my RX-7 through the mountains and some countryside roads this afternoon, the handling was fantastic and despite my alignment being off the steering was really quite nice. Could the steering be better, absolutely, but it really works quite well and is fun to use.

j_tso

iTrader: (2)

The only real thing wrong with the steering is the center free play. Once you start turning it's got a solid feel. Mazda beefed up the steering shaft from the RX-3 to reduce flexing. I read somewhere that a rack wasn't used because the Mazda engineers couldn't sufficiently eliminate kick back through the wheel. Personally I think they didn't have the budget or time to design a rack system.

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

Interesting, the flex you're speaking of must be the reason why the Datsun people swear by these steering box braces to increase steering feel. This doesn't seem to be a problem with our cars. To me the on-center play, while not ideal, isn't really that big of a deal. It's pretty minor in my car, and I feel the car is nice and stable now at highway speeds, and the car turns in very predictably and nicely. I do think that it's bizarre though, that a rack and pinion system wasn't designed for our cars. Most small sporty European cars had it by the late 70's, although the Japanese did seem to be behind a bit. I think the Corolla and 280ZX may have been the only non-FWD Japanese cars at the time to have rack and pinion.

I think some of the problems people have stem from: 1) recirculating-ball steering systems have many more sources of play than rack and pinion (and with cars of our age and mileage) this is nearly universally prevalent if everything hasn't been replaced and 2) anytime there is a problem with the steering people are quick to unnecessarily adjust the steering box sometimes covering a different issue and doing more bad than good.

I got an alignment today, and after all the changes that I documented in my thread, I have to say the steering is simply fantastic. The play is very minor, and really doesn't take away from the steering. As you said the steering has a very nice, solid feel, the feedback is very nice, and the steering inspires a lot of confidence. The steering makes the car feel very controllable and very connected to the road. I feel the whole road when taking the car through a corner. I guess what I was getting at when I started the thread is how much nicer I feel the steering is versus the modern steering systems I'm familiar with. The steering is full of life and character in my RX-7, whereas most modern systems I'm familiar with seem dull and dead.

7aull

iTrader: (2)

Nirvana!
well deserved with all your work.

Stu Aull
80GS
Alaska

t_g_farrell

iTrader: (1)

On a 1st gen, when the steering and front end are all dialed in correctly, its like driving a big
gocart, the steering is that crisp and direct.

Glad to see you finally got through all the steering issues from when you started. I bet it feels
like a new car now. I know mine does.

shftin2gear

I agree the steering is quite nice except for the center free play.

Slightly related:

Does anyone else have the issue of their steering not returning to center after a turn? I always have to manually steer the wheel back into place.

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

At low speeds, or low steering angle, I believe this is normal, if it's everywhere it's a result of too tight on the steering box adjustment or too little caster. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

If feels like a new car, with the charm and character of an old car. I'd like to thank everyone for being patient and helping me get through my restoration of the steering / front end. The manual steering is direct and has so much character, it's one of my favorite things about the car. On the right mountain road, it's an absolute joy to drive. The Racing Beat swaybar makes it handle amazingly, and the wide, usable powerband of the rotary makes for thrilling driving. The steering is almost so good, I'm afraid to mess it up

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i've never driven a GTV, but the 2002 does have this wonderful steering feel that is just unique, it feels like a really precise thread, like maybe a mag light, or a tri pod or something. its fairly light too, its really just a joy to use

by comparison the FB is less precise feeling, and its usually a little heavier, but so is just about every other car, even newer BMW's with steering racks.

the steering feel comes from some combination of the steering linkage (duh), but also vehicle weight, tire size, and camber/caster, the 2002 is really light, and my current FB is ~2100lbs, with 225 tires and some camber, and the wheel is really light, and the car responds when you turn the wheel, its really good.

yeah you have to do that yourself, more caster would help, but kind of how it is

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for sharing. The 2002 has always been on my list of "cars I hope to own someday", great styling and a pure driver's car, like our RX-7. How does the 2002 compare to the RX-7 in terms of overall driving experience and "feel". Obviously the 2002 has a piston engine and semi-trailing arm rear suspension, but I'd imagine they're pretty similar. Similar weight, similar power, lack of driving aids on both, etc... Although, most older cars have oodles of character, so I could imagine significant differences too.

To me the RX-7's steering is interesting the way the car seems to pivot right in front of the driver (from the middle of the car somewhat) rather than near the front like most cars I've driven do. I don't know whether that has to do with it being rear-steer or something else, it seems like most modern cars are front-steer for whatever reason.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

ive never owned an 2002, but we did have a couple floating around, and they are great fun to drive, it has all the tangible intangibles that new cars just don't have.

firstly, the driving position is good in the 02, and the belt line is low, so you can see out of it really well. it comes from a time where they thought it was safer if the driver could see out of the car, and paid attention to driving, crazy i know!

second is that the all the control inputs are really linear, and nicely weighted, the Rx7 is good here too, but the BMW somehow is better, like things are on bearings instead of bushings or something. hard to explain, and its something that BMW hasn't gotten right since, in fact every later BMW just feels like a pig in comparison. if you wanted a similar diving experience, the 09-011 Mazda 3, with a manual is the closest you'd get today, controls have the same linearity that makes it really rewarding.

third, in conjunction with #2, the car is light. i do like cars that are immediate, and this sort of translates into light weight.

and four, it sounds good. my friends car had a glasspack, and it was pretty loud, but not in a bad way.

put all that together, and its just really fun. in the real world, its slow, everything is broken, and its devilishly hard to work on, so its a typical BMW there :P

i think in context, my old Tr3 sang a better song, and was generally a little more engaging to drive, but didn't have the linear nicely weighted controls, and a stock SA/FB is in the ball park, but doesn't sound as good, and isn't quite as precise feeling, but its way more practical, and easy to live with.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

since i mentioned it, i feel like i should mention the other favorite cars. you'll see, but i like cars that are engaging and immediate.

also rans; these 3 are good but miss the make in some way.

04-012 Rx8. its quiet and smooth, to the point where you'd need to step up to something really expensive to match it and the chassis is magic, power is adequate, its missing some little intangible thing though. ive been using one as a DD for a few years.

62-80 MGB. the B has all the checklist items, but ends up being a bit dull, not quite sure why.

66-93 Alfa Spider; i want another go at one of these, but it looks great, has a lot of engine, but i liked the Fiat Spider better, the Fiat is good at everything, but not great at anything.

79-80 Rx7. by chance i picked up a low mileage stock 79, and it was huge fun. the styling is just right, it has what we've come to call a 'retro future' look, if you asked the Italians in 1970 what a 1990 car might look like, you might have gotten something like the SA. its just a tad soft.

top 3: in no particular order

Lancia Scorpion; i had a chance to drive one of these around earlier this year, and i'm smitten. it really makes you drive it, and thus its fun. there isn't much power, but its delivered nicely, its got a lot of midrange, and a nice snarl. it has rack and pinion steering, but steering feel is actually not great, the car is light and mid engine though, so its pivot point is behind you, and it turns in NOW. the styling is interesting, the rear 3/4 is awesome, and somehow when its parked, its ok, but when its moving everyone stares. chicks dig the horn, and its actually quite comfortable. compared to an MGB, the Scorpion is like a space ship, its very modern. brakes are scary, and it feels like if you broke traction in a turn it would kill you.

Triumph Tr3; i owned one for about a decade, and its about the best driving experience i've ever had. you get no distractions, its you and the car, probably more like a motorcycle in this way. engine is from a tractor, which is where the MGB looses street cred, imo, it has a great bark to it, and makes ~100hp in a 2000lbs car, so its faster than you want it to be. in 1954 it was, for the money, the fastest thing you could buy. it looks great, i could just stare at it all day. its comfortable, driving position is good, brakes are very good, its got 13" discs. handling is the wrong word to use, it goes around corners ok, but it doesn't really give feedback. as a whole, its basically the unfettered drive that makes this one great.

Mr Peepers; in 2008 i took an old 1982 Rx7 Pro7 car, and put a peripheral port 12A in it, and its just the best thing i've ever done. it weirdly came out of the box just right. the steering, is light and precise (it took 2 tries, i had the box out of the car too), the car is light (2100lbs?) so it responds now, yet at the track it actually mildly understeers, which was a surprise. the engine idles with the brap brap you'd expect, but other than that it doesn't drive all that different than any other rotary. power band is huge, and it happens NOW, its like a golden retriever puppy, it just wants to chase stuff. its weirdly quiet inside the car, but you can tell its loud outside. its a happy little car.

lwrobins

I own a 85 gsl with power steering. My previous car was a 944 with power rack and pinion steering, it was perfect! The rx7 steering is great. Allot of friends here poo poo the PS on 1st gens, however with the closer ratio and variable feedback.I have no complaints!

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

@j9fd3s: Thanks for sharing your experience with these cars. What you described regarding the 2002, seems to coincide with everything I've read about the car. Supposedly they're fantastic little cars, and I've heard reliable too, once the age issues are sorted. I have a long mental list of cars I hope to own someday, the 2002 is fairly high on that list. Funny what you mention about "active safety" of the 2002. Modern cars have horrible visibility, and are constantly coming up with new ways for computers to control the car. As a software developer, I'm horrified that computers can take control of cars from the driver. I've always loved the look of the Lancia Scorpion/Montecarlo, and I've heard they're awesome cars as well. Strange about the steering not having too much feel, since mid-engine and rack and pinion are a great combination for good steering.

For the reasons that you mentioned liking the 2002, light-weight, linearity of controls, etc., I find those being the same reasons for liking my RX-7 so much. You described liking cars that are "engaging and immediate", and I find myself in complete agreement. I love the basic, no-frills nature of my FB, I even love the fact that it has manual crank windows. When I was looking for a new car, I had a list of attributes: under 2500 lbs, manual steering, manual transmission (obviously), normally aspirated, RWD, no driver-aids, great styling; the RX-7 checks all those boxes. I like cars that are basically fun to drive, and as such most modern cars don't interest me. They're just lacking the "feel" or "character" of an older car, the "tangible intangibles" that you mentioned.

hcaulfield57

iTrader: (1)

@j9fd3s: I forgot to ask, how does the steering play compare on the three recirculating ball cars you mentioned: RX-7, 2002, and TR3? This seems to be the issue that bothers people the most. I personally have about 1/2" in each direction so 1" on center. Totally bearable, you hardly notice at slow speeds and in the mountains it's unnoticeable, only on the highway do you notice it really, and the car tracks straight and stable so no big deal.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i don't really recall the 02 having any play, but it probably had plenty. the Tr3 had about an inch or so, but since its not recirculating ball (its worm and peg, so i think its like a lego), effort is the thing you notice, it has a giant steering wheel, and you need it, even with teeny tires.

brakes are another thing, the Tr3 was a little heavier than the Mazda, with a nice linear effort/stopping relationship. it makes you realize most cars have crappy feeling brakes...

Whizbang

Yea i won't defend the steering in the FB or for that matter the 2002. Its slow. Period. Slow is sufficient for cruising about, but on tighter, technical roads and spirited driving, you spend a great deal of time playing catch up with the steering.