RE: Recent "OMG" in Technical Section
09-15-10, 07:30 PM
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RE: Recent "OMG" in Technical Section
As most of you have noticed: Many, many, many of the recent threads in the technical section cover questions and information that has been covered before. I'm sure many of you have also noticed that there is a distinct attitude of unhelpfulness that's cast into those beforementioned threads.
Some facts:
It does no good to bump a thread with a negative, belittling or smug attitude. In fact, it's counterproductive if the attempt is to motivate an indiviudal to use the "search" function, those posts serve no purpose than to bump the thread without adding any content what-so-ever.
Because of this flood of "haterism," half of the first two results pages of searches like "13b swap," "TII swap," "stripped nikki" (less so on this one) and "mechanical secondaries" have little to do with the search term. Instead, they are populated in the search because of "Search Facists" referencing the key terms that the original poster ought to have searched for before creating a new thread. Thus reducing the overall productivity of "Search."
In this same mode, those of us who would post a thread-link to someone asking about *DFIS, carb modification or driveline interchangability issues should make sure that the pictures, links and related discussion is still viable in the link they post. It does an acolyte poster no good whatsoever to be referenced to a thread whose graphics and links are broken. The same goes for referencing the FAQ. While the FAQ may have general information contained within it, it too references dead links and internal threads that have had their images lost.
---
In the interest of developing and supporting a sense of community, we should be aware of the fact that the very verbage to search for may not be immediately logical to a person who is new to the rotary. Let us presuppose for a moment that the Search Facists had their way, and the ONLY CONTENT that was in the technical section dealt with completely novel questions and answers. Questions that have never, ever been before asked. In that frame of reference, how would someone who is lurking (lest they be crucified before becoming fully knowledgable) become conversant with "old hat" issues?
In total, I believe that we need to be more supportive of "new" members.
Some facts:
It does no good to bump a thread with a negative, belittling or smug attitude. In fact, it's counterproductive if the attempt is to motivate an indiviudal to use the "search" function, those posts serve no purpose than to bump the thread without adding any content what-so-ever.
Because of this flood of "haterism," half of the first two results pages of searches like "13b swap," "TII swap," "stripped nikki" (less so on this one) and "mechanical secondaries" have little to do with the search term. Instead, they are populated in the search because of "Search Facists" referencing the key terms that the original poster ought to have searched for before creating a new thread. Thus reducing the overall productivity of "Search."
In this same mode, those of us who would post a thread-link to someone asking about *DFIS, carb modification or driveline interchangability issues should make sure that the pictures, links and related discussion is still viable in the link they post. It does an acolyte poster no good whatsoever to be referenced to a thread whose graphics and links are broken. The same goes for referencing the FAQ. While the FAQ may have general information contained within it, it too references dead links and internal threads that have had their images lost.
---
In the interest of developing and supporting a sense of community, we should be aware of the fact that the very verbage to search for may not be immediately logical to a person who is new to the rotary. Let us presuppose for a moment that the Search Facists had their way, and the ONLY CONTENT that was in the technical section dealt with completely novel questions and answers. Questions that have never, ever been before asked. In that frame of reference, how would someone who is lurking (lest they be crucified before becoming fully knowledgable) become conversant with "old hat" issues?
In total, I believe that we need to be more supportive of "new" members.
09-15-10, 07:45 PM
#2
We have a new guy section of the forum... but I am not too sure on what you are really
talking about?
Most threads on the first page have stemmed from the past few days worth of posts. This
forum doesn't move as fast as the 2nd or 3rd gen sections. Some of the "Search Facists"
have been here since the forum first appeared and know through and through the SA/FB.
And yes, it does get tiring of hearing the same thread (can I turbo my 12a/13b turbo
swap/how do I get more power) over and over, so we rehash the same information over and
over.
I did do a search for 13b swap, and got 1 thread on the first page that someone said to search.
Every other thread was either not applicable to the search term, or the same answers given
over and over.
Oh, and welcome to the Dark Side
talking about?
Most threads on the first page have stemmed from the past few days worth of posts. This
forum doesn't move as fast as the 2nd or 3rd gen sections. Some of the "Search Facists"
have been here since the forum first appeared and know through and through the SA/FB.
And yes, it does get tiring of hearing the same thread (can I turbo my 12a/13b turbo
swap/how do I get more power) over and over, so we rehash the same information over and
over.
I did do a search for 13b swap, and got 1 thread on the first page that someone said to search.
Every other thread was either not applicable to the search term, or the same answers given
over and over.
Oh, and welcome to the Dark Side
09-15-10, 08:01 PM
#3
IMHO a new member should not be able to post in the regular technical section until they have a significant amount of posts and knowledge of their car. There are many forums that have the new section like we do and it is called a "Flame" free section. But when they enter the main technical section they are told that they better search first.
It does no good to just give a member a link because they just learn to ask for more information without searching. If you give them a link or answer a very redundant question then perhaps you should educate them on the search function and what terms work the best.
It does no good to just give a member a link because they just learn to ask for more information without searching. If you give them a link or answer a very redundant question then perhaps you should educate them on the search function and what terms work the best.
09-15-10, 08:06 PM
#4
Right from the rules of the 1st Gen section-
Search
This one is dayglo orange for a reason. Please, please, please use the Search button. Without using the search feature, the forum is cluttered up with the same questions that have been answered over and over again in the past.
New Members:
You have three references to exploit before posting. You can read the FAQ, many of the Frequently Asked Questions are answered there, You can search the Archive where many useful threads have been saved for your benefit, and You can use the Search Function. Don't forget when using the search to go to "Advanced Search" and specify the 1st Gen Section if you want results only from our section. Here is a handy not-so-secret treasure map:
The Archives
Time to wander down the dusty halls of rotary history. The Archive is the place where the "Crème de la Crème" of threads go. This sub-forum can't be posted in, but it can be searched, and contains some of the best sources of information. You'll notice that each thread is prefixed with its section of the shop manual, so you can click where it says "Thread" at the top of the threads list to sort them alphabetically and group them together
Requesting Help
When posting any thread concerning the need for help pertaining
to any diagnostic help, there are minimum guidelines for us to help you.
1. We need exact year, model and what engine you're running. We need to know if motor is stock or running any mods and if so what type of mod. Example: carb applications, Mikuni, Weber, Dellorto, stock Nikki, or modified Sterling. Stock exhaust or aftermarket, stock ignition or aftermarket, etc....
2. Before posting, if you do not have a repair manual such as a Haynes, or the Mazda FSM, get one. It's a great way to learn about your vehicle and will save you a lot of time and money.
3. We need to know if you just worked on the car and if so, what did you just do. Was the problem there before you started or after you worked on it?
4. Has the issue been there for awhile or just started. Does it do it more when it's cold outside or warm. Is the symptom there when it's first started then goes away after it is at operating temp?. If it is a noise problem, is it louder as you drive faster? Does the problem only happen at certain rpm's or speeds?
5. On starting issues, does it crank and act like it wants to fire or not? Did you check for spark when it does not start; did you check to make sure it is getting fuel. The basics on fuel is it could be getting fuel but not enough pressure or volume. Does it just click when you turn the key? This indicates usually low voltage, can be caused by discharged battery or dirty terminals at the battery, bad wire at the starter, solenoid going bad. Checking for ignitor firing, put a timing light on the trailing side and crank it over, if the light starts flashing the ignitor is good, same for the leading.
6. Check all visual components for wear or damage. Make sure all electrical connections are good and fuses are intact. When looking for vacuum leaks, spray carb cleaner around suspected area and listen for stabilization (idle usually picks up).
7. When in doubt, check and recheck the basics.
8. Respond back after fixing your problem. Many threads die without ever knowing what fixed her/his problem and then we get the same questions asked again because some of the searched threads come to a dead end.
Remember when you are posting, you are asking others to be technicians. the difference between a mechanic and a technician is that a mechanic can replace a
part that he can see that is broken or has been told that it needs to be replaced.
A technician can diagnose the problem and fix it. But a technician needs all info
in order to get a starting point to go from. since we can't see your vehicle , hear
the noise or test drive it. We need as much info as we can get in order to help you.
Welcome to the forum, and don't be surprised if someone tells you to search, even if you already have.. we're just making sure.
The issue is that most don't take the time or are just plain lazy to read or look for information.
Search
This one is dayglo orange for a reason. Please, please, please use the Search button. Without using the search feature, the forum is cluttered up with the same questions that have been answered over and over again in the past.
New Members:
You have three references to exploit before posting. You can read the FAQ, many of the Frequently Asked Questions are answered there, You can search the Archive where many useful threads have been saved for your benefit, and You can use the Search Function. Don't forget when using the search to go to "Advanced Search" and specify the 1st Gen Section if you want results only from our section. Here is a handy not-so-secret treasure map:
The Archives
Time to wander down the dusty halls of rotary history. The Archive is the place where the "Crème de la Crème" of threads go. This sub-forum can't be posted in, but it can be searched, and contains some of the best sources of information. You'll notice that each thread is prefixed with its section of the shop manual, so you can click where it says "Thread" at the top of the threads list to sort them alphabetically and group them together
Requesting Help
When posting any thread concerning the need for help pertaining
to any diagnostic help, there are minimum guidelines for us to help you.
1. We need exact year, model and what engine you're running. We need to know if motor is stock or running any mods and if so what type of mod. Example: carb applications, Mikuni, Weber, Dellorto, stock Nikki, or modified Sterling. Stock exhaust or aftermarket, stock ignition or aftermarket, etc....
2. Before posting, if you do not have a repair manual such as a Haynes, or the Mazda FSM, get one. It's a great way to learn about your vehicle and will save you a lot of time and money.
3. We need to know if you just worked on the car and if so, what did you just do. Was the problem there before you started or after you worked on it?
4. Has the issue been there for awhile or just started. Does it do it more when it's cold outside or warm. Is the symptom there when it's first started then goes away after it is at operating temp?. If it is a noise problem, is it louder as you drive faster? Does the problem only happen at certain rpm's or speeds?
5. On starting issues, does it crank and act like it wants to fire or not? Did you check for spark when it does not start; did you check to make sure it is getting fuel. The basics on fuel is it could be getting fuel but not enough pressure or volume. Does it just click when you turn the key? This indicates usually low voltage, can be caused by discharged battery or dirty terminals at the battery, bad wire at the starter, solenoid going bad. Checking for ignitor firing, put a timing light on the trailing side and crank it over, if the light starts flashing the ignitor is good, same for the leading.
6. Check all visual components for wear or damage. Make sure all electrical connections are good and fuses are intact. When looking for vacuum leaks, spray carb cleaner around suspected area and listen for stabilization (idle usually picks up).
7. When in doubt, check and recheck the basics.
8. Respond back after fixing your problem. Many threads die without ever knowing what fixed her/his problem and then we get the same questions asked again because some of the searched threads come to a dead end.
Remember when you are posting, you are asking others to be technicians. the difference between a mechanic and a technician is that a mechanic can replace a
part that he can see that is broken or has been told that it needs to be replaced.
A technician can diagnose the problem and fix it. But a technician needs all info
in order to get a starting point to go from. since we can't see your vehicle , hear
the noise or test drive it. We need as much info as we can get in order to help you.
Welcome to the forum, and don't be surprised if someone tells you to search, even if you already have.. we're just making sure.
The issue is that most don't take the time or are just plain lazy to read or look for information.
09-15-10, 08:12 PM
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Mostly the privileged attitude that most of "us" dole upon "they" who come to ask questions that have not fit "our" model of "search first." It's more complicated than that, but that's the general crux of it. If I was tarred and feathered when I first came on the forum, it would have severely limited my enjoyment of such from that point.
Because of these facts those individuals should give their intellectual content freely, bereft of the baseless elitism that "RTFM, Go search, lol you are retarded" demonstrates. I'm active and inactive on the forum as time and budget permits. Because of this recent "attitude" even I have some trepidation in asking about available FI intakes for the S1 13b, if a FI intake is attainable/worth it for the 12a and if my square bore TBI plan is actually the best bet--
Instead, I'm left wallowing in the unproductive, mired search function to fix my hosed water seals, getting an opinion on the "best" soft-seal kit and looking at a somewhat comparable FSM (For that, thank you Mr. Fox) as input for what I should do with my car next.
Sub sole nihil novi est: accept it. Don't hate it.
(Sorry if this looks wonky- IE9 beta.)
09-15-10, 08:39 PM
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Unless we're expected to have assimilated all sorts of information, information that springs forth out of the ether, like Athena from Zeus' forehead, "crowdsourced" information is the most efficient way to collect knowledge about our cars. Eliminating those that would benefit the greatest from the method of learning/information that is the most productive would do us all a great disservice.
If I'm reading this correctly, the assumption is that "they" are simply unaware of the capacity to search. In my estimation, most people are aware of the presence of the search function. The rub comes when that and other tools are ineffective. And if it's "OK" for someone to post a question asking which terms to search for, the whole idea of keeping the "riff-raff" off the Tech. board becomes pyrrhic.
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09-15-10, 08:42 PM
#8
Mostly the privileged attitude that most of "us" dole upon "they" who come to ask questions that have not fit "our" model of "search first." It's more complicated than that, but that's the general crux of it. If I was tarred and feathered when I first came on the forum, it would have severely limited my enjoyment of such from that point.
Because of these facts those individuals should give their intellectual content freely, bereft of the baseless elitism that "RTFM, Go search, lol you are retarded" demonstrates. I'm active and inactive on the forum as time and budget permits. Because of this recent "attitude" even I have some trepidation in asking about available FI intakes for the S1 13b, if a FI intake is attainable/worth it for the 12a and if my square bore TBI plan is actually the best bet--
Instead, I'm left wallowing in the unproductive, mired search function to fix my hosed water seals, getting an opinion on the "best" soft-seal kit and looking at a somewhat comparable FSM (For that, thank you Mr. Fox) as input for what I should do with my car next.
Sub sole nihil novi est: accept it. Don't hate it.
(Sorry if this looks wonky- IE9 beta.)
Because of these facts those individuals should give their intellectual content freely, bereft of the baseless elitism that "RTFM, Go search, lol you are retarded" demonstrates. I'm active and inactive on the forum as time and budget permits. Because of this recent "attitude" even I have some trepidation in asking about available FI intakes for the S1 13b, if a FI intake is attainable/worth it for the 12a and if my square bore TBI plan is actually the best bet--
Instead, I'm left wallowing in the unproductive, mired search function to fix my hosed water seals, getting an opinion on the "best" soft-seal kit and looking at a somewhat comparable FSM (For that, thank you Mr. Fox) as input for what I should do with my car next.
Sub sole nihil novi est: accept it. Don't hate it.
(Sorry if this looks wonky- IE9 beta.)
I just did a search on "search" and 9 out of every 10 thread I see have someone who
says to use the search button WHILE posting relevant information or links with the
searches already done.
Just trying to see where you are coming from... IMO if everyone just used the
search button and scanned the first 3 pages, most all their questions should be
answered...
09-15-10, 08:56 PM
#9
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The way in which something is presented has just as much weight as the content provided. We should be happy to help out those of us who are less advantaged in the realm of rotary experience, not annoyed and filled with "GET OFF MY LAWN, KID."
Citing, again, the viability of the links provided. Even some basic information in the (again) FAQ references informaiton that is no longer accessible.
This is far from being "FULL RAGE" or anything of the sort, I just get a little more crestfallen everytime I see a veteran of the forum berate someone, or present information in a way which could make someone feel as though they are unwelcome.
This is far from being "FULL RAGE" or anything of the sort, I just get a little more crestfallen everytime I see a veteran of the forum berate someone, or present information in a way which could make someone feel as though they are unwelcome.
09-15-10, 09:23 PM
#10
While I do see it as a problem to new members, many forums I am on are A LOT worse than this one.
Yes, there are a lot of repeat questions. Yes, they get told to search a lot.
But think about this;
What if there was one link that the veteran member remembered, and just posted it on the thread? Is it really that difficult to help a new member like that? Along with the link, just post a friendly reminder that it was covered numerous times before and can be found in the archives or by using the search button.
Take the bolt pattern thread for example. Granted, he didnt give us much information to work with, it would have been easier to say;
4x114.3; gsl-se
4x110; all others.
that would have been a good post which helped him out rather than just telling him to search.
I'm not saying that thread was handled wrong, because it wasnt really. I am just using it as an example.
Those "veterans" are what MADE me search before I post anything on here. I have found out a ton of helpful information because I searched. Sometimes you cant find out what you're looking for, but if you prove you've searched or atleast looked into it, it shouldnt be a problem for anyone to answer.
Yes, there are a lot of repeat questions. Yes, they get told to search a lot.
But think about this;
What if there was one link that the veteran member remembered, and just posted it on the thread? Is it really that difficult to help a new member like that? Along with the link, just post a friendly reminder that it was covered numerous times before and can be found in the archives or by using the search button.
Take the bolt pattern thread for example. Granted, he didnt give us much information to work with, it would have been easier to say;
4x114.3; gsl-se
4x110; all others.
that would have been a good post which helped him out rather than just telling him to search.
I'm not saying that thread was handled wrong, because it wasnt really. I am just using it as an example.
Those "veterans" are what MADE me search before I post anything on here. I have found out a ton of helpful information because I searched. Sometimes you cant find out what you're looking for, but if you prove you've searched or atleast looked into it, it shouldnt be a problem for anyone to answer.
09-15-10, 09:45 PM
#11
"If you give a man a fire, you've warmed him for the moment; But if you SET a man on fire, you've warmed him for the rest of his life."
Vern, I do see your point to a degree, but I think you're overestimating the amount of time the long-term and/or knowledgeable members have, or are willing to take out of THEIR own lives, to repeat and repeat information already recorded here.
The whole PURPOSE of a forum, as opposed to a chatroom, is the preservation of known material so it doesn't need to be endlessly repeated.
I've contributed some small amount around here I think, and learned much more, and I tend to try to help new folks who have figured out what they need to know and have made some kind of effort to look for it before adding yet another thread to the list, even if they sometimes struggle to get across what they need.
That's how communities get built; the experienced helping those willing to ask and learn. And that includes both answering of questions and directing questioners to search the stacks.
But... when a new member rolls in and won't even demonstrate at least a minimum interest in:well, maybe it's a personal flaw, but I find robust educational motivation often comes from experiencing minor public embarrassment. That's ALSO how communities get built.
It's generally pretty clear which new members post their initial questions without any attempt to actually be understood, to find out if the subject's been covered before, or even to learn the most basic information about their own car before asking their question, and then expect that someone else can magically understand what they need and lead them to it. The kind thing to do for someone in this case is to help them understand the flaws in this approach, in a memorable way.
It's not snobbery or elitism; it's practicality, mixed with pretty normal group dynamics. It's how we learn not to fart in court.
There's a distinct line between "ignorant" and "lazy." We all start off ignorant (which simply means 'unknowing'), but intellectual laziness is how some end up staying that way.
"Sub sole nihil novi est"? There may be 'nothing new under the sun,' but that argues against your point, sir; if theres nothing new under the sun, then there's no need for one to ask new questions; one needs simply to locate the answers to the already-asked ones.
Vern, I do see your point to a degree, but I think you're overestimating the amount of time the long-term and/or knowledgeable members have, or are willing to take out of THEIR own lives, to repeat and repeat information already recorded here.
The whole PURPOSE of a forum, as opposed to a chatroom, is the preservation of known material so it doesn't need to be endlessly repeated.
I've contributed some small amount around here I think, and learned much more, and I tend to try to help new folks who have figured out what they need to know and have made some kind of effort to look for it before adding yet another thread to the list, even if they sometimes struggle to get across what they need.
That's how communities get built; the experienced helping those willing to ask and learn. And that includes both answering of questions and directing questioners to search the stacks.
But... when a new member rolls in and won't even demonstrate at least a minimum interest in:
1) first having tried to find their own answer for more than 30 seconds;
2) have read the forum rules and the FAQ,
and all too often
3) come off as if they have an entitlement to have their questions researched and answered for them without:
2) have read the forum rules and the FAQ,
and all too often
3) come off as if they have an entitlement to have their questions researched and answered for them without:
a) asking in at least a semi-legible form of more or less standard english
b) giving obvious minimum information (like year and type of car & engine),
c) have a minimum knowledge of basic mechanics it will take to even consider doing what they're asking about, or a willingness to acquire same, and
d) expect someone to take more effort in ANSWERING their question than they bothered to take in ASKING it...
b) giving obvious minimum information (like year and type of car & engine),
c) have a minimum knowledge of basic mechanics it will take to even consider doing what they're asking about, or a willingness to acquire same, and
d) expect someone to take more effort in ANSWERING their question than they bothered to take in ASKING it...
It's generally pretty clear which new members post their initial questions without any attempt to actually be understood, to find out if the subject's been covered before, or even to learn the most basic information about their own car before asking their question, and then expect that someone else can magically understand what they need and lead them to it. The kind thing to do for someone in this case is to help them understand the flaws in this approach, in a memorable way.
It's not snobbery or elitism; it's practicality, mixed with pretty normal group dynamics. It's how we learn not to fart in court.
There's a distinct line between "ignorant" and "lazy." We all start off ignorant (which simply means 'unknowing'), but intellectual laziness is how some end up staying that way.
"Sub sole nihil novi est"? There may be 'nothing new under the sun,' but that argues against your point, sir; if theres nothing new under the sun, then there's no need for one to ask new questions; one needs simply to locate the answers to the already-asked ones.
09-15-10, 10:32 PM
#12
It's a matter of making an effort and reading all of the material that is supplied to them when they come on this site. Most of them just post in the new threads so they can get their post count up then they are off asking questions that could have been answered if they would have read the material that we took the time to provide them with in the first place.
I have always believed that if someone has to work for something that they learn a hell of a lot more than if it is just handed to them. Learn to think for yourselves. It's OK to ask for assistance when you have tried (meaning really searched, not this 10 minute crap). I know from experience of being a Manager most of my life how lazy people can be and just expect a answer to be given to them instead of figuring it out for themselves. I am a member of other sites and when I go there I take the time to read the material. If I ask a question you can be assured that I spent hours going through old threads before I post. Then for the most part I will bring up a old related thread and add to it so in the future it will benefit all.
I don't believe I am above it all and high and mighty but I do believe that a honest effort is not being made most of the time by new and old members alike. It's amazing that I see threads that say, "I know this has been covered, but I am at work right now on my cell phone, and just want to get a quick answer"! Well wait until you are off of work. Why clutter up the section with a thread that you have already stated that the information is there. It's like saying that I knew it was a stop sign but no one was coming so I went through it.
If you are going to work on your own vehicle then you better start learning about it. That means getting a repair manual and reading it from front to back. This is just basic knowledge that you should be absorbing when attempting to do your own work.
I have always believed that if someone has to work for something that they learn a hell of a lot more than if it is just handed to them. Learn to think for yourselves. It's OK to ask for assistance when you have tried (meaning really searched, not this 10 minute crap). I know from experience of being a Manager most of my life how lazy people can be and just expect a answer to be given to them instead of figuring it out for themselves. I am a member of other sites and when I go there I take the time to read the material. If I ask a question you can be assured that I spent hours going through old threads before I post. Then for the most part I will bring up a old related thread and add to it so in the future it will benefit all.
I don't believe I am above it all and high and mighty but I do believe that a honest effort is not being made most of the time by new and old members alike. It's amazing that I see threads that say, "I know this has been covered, but I am at work right now on my cell phone, and just want to get a quick answer"! Well wait until you are off of work. Why clutter up the section with a thread that you have already stated that the information is there. It's like saying that I knew it was a stop sign but no one was coming so I went through it.
If you are going to work on your own vehicle then you better start learning about it. That means getting a repair manual and reading it from front to back. This is just basic knowledge that you should be absorbing when attempting to do your own work.
09-16-10, 03:02 AM
#13
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"If you give a man a fire, you've warmed him for the moment; But if you SET a man on fire, you've warmed him for the rest of his life."
But... when a new member rolls in and won't even demonstrate at least a minimum interest in:well, maybe it's a personal flaw, but I find robust educational motivation often comes from experiencing minor public embarrassment. That's ALSO how communities get built.
But... when a new member rolls in and won't even demonstrate at least a minimum interest in:
1) first having tried to find their own answer for more than 30 seconds;
2) have read the forum rules and the FAQ,
and all too often
3) come off as if they have an entitlement to have their questions researched and answered for them without:
2) have read the forum rules and the FAQ,
and all too often
3) come off as if they have an entitlement to have their questions researched and answered for them without:
a) asking in at least a semi-legible form of more or less standard english
b) giving obvious minimum information (like year and type of car & engine),
c) have a minimum knowledge of basic mechanics it will take to even consider doing what they're asking about, or a willingness to acquire same, and
d) expect someone to take more effort in ANSWERING their question than they bothered to take in ASKING it...
b) giving obvious minimum information (like year and type of car & engine),
c) have a minimum knowledge of basic mechanics it will take to even consider doing what they're asking about, or a willingness to acquire same, and
d) expect someone to take more effort in ANSWERING their question than they bothered to take in ASKING it...
It's generally pretty clear which new members post their initial questions without any attempt to actually be understood, to find out if the subject's been covered before, or even to learn the most basic information about their own car before asking their question, and then expect that someone else can magically understand what they need and lead them to it. The kind thing to do for someone in this case is to help them understand the flaws in this approach, in a memorable way.
I know from experience of being a Manager most of my life how lazy people can be and just expect a answer to be given to them instead of figuring it out for themselves. I am a member of other sites and when I go there I take the time to read the material. If I ask a question you can be assured that I spent hours going through old threads before I post.
---
All of that mess, at the very least calls into question what is a proper amount of time that someone ought to search for something before resorting to creating a new thread, or appending to a somewhat current thread a similar issue/problem/fact. That figure is indeterminate. What isn't indeterminate, however, is the complete lack of productivity in bumping an offending thread with a verbose facepalm or referencing a dead link/thread bereft of images or anything else that doesn't effectively close the (perhaps repetitive) thread.
We all need an attitude of hospitality. (Or a wiki...)
09-16-10, 04:32 AM
#14
maybe you should get this thing that they have on the other forums that
when you basically type in the title to your new post it automatically starts a search while they are typing there question. thus forcing them to search.
or when they first start there account make it so everytime they long in the search button explodes shiny always= attention and then for everyone over a certain post count.. make the search button stand out more like a bright orange or neon something i dont kno
when you basically type in the title to your new post it automatically starts a search while they are typing there question. thus forcing them to search.
or when they first start there account make it so everytime they long in the search button explodes shiny always= attention and then for everyone over a certain post count.. make the search button stand out more like a bright orange or neon something i dont kno
09-16-10, 04:57 AM
#15
Migrant Rotorhead
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How about: forget the rule about topics in the main forum must be novel. I don't know if you've noticed, but forums don't work that way anymore, probably because more people are using them.
Forums for other topics I frequent, there're usually a fair chunk of 'intermediates' - people who asked the newbie question, got their answers, learned a little more on their own or reading the forum for a while, and then start answering the newbie questions.
Most of the 'experts' don't chime in often on the newbie questions.
The archive is really where all of these unique solution threads should be, if they exist. I usually end up in circular references to search for x thread that someone asked about in 2003, and often never do find the original thread.
We're also losing the incremental knowledge people are gaining. I'm currently working on a project. I found a reference to a different way to do it, but 2 weeks of searching couldn't dig up the thread. I've since found a better way to go about it than I'm currently using, and I'll post that when I'm done, but if I forget about it and don't create a new thread, no one will ever ask the question again because it's an old question. I'd remember, and post the response. Or maybe someone else had found the same solution, but I didn't start a thread because there were existing threads on the topic.
The autosearch is a good idea, but I do think that we're losing our community-ness by trying to force all threads to be unique and entirely relevant, or full of search-related flames.
Forums for other topics I frequent, there're usually a fair chunk of 'intermediates' - people who asked the newbie question, got their answers, learned a little more on their own or reading the forum for a while, and then start answering the newbie questions.
Most of the 'experts' don't chime in often on the newbie questions.
The archive is really where all of these unique solution threads should be, if they exist. I usually end up in circular references to search for x thread that someone asked about in 2003, and often never do find the original thread.
We're also losing the incremental knowledge people are gaining. I'm currently working on a project. I found a reference to a different way to do it, but 2 weeks of searching couldn't dig up the thread. I've since found a better way to go about it than I'm currently using, and I'll post that when I'm done, but if I forget about it and don't create a new thread, no one will ever ask the question again because it's an old question. I'd remember, and post the response. Or maybe someone else had found the same solution, but I didn't start a thread because there were existing threads on the topic.
The autosearch is a good idea, but I do think that we're losing our community-ness by trying to force all threads to be unique and entirely relevant, or full of search-related flames.
09-16-10, 08:11 AM
#16
Senior Member
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How about we all respect each other and refrain from negative, unproductive posts. If you think the OP jumped the gun by asking a questions that (s)he should have searched......just keep your mouth shut and move on to the next thread - pretty simple. But if you are willing to share your knowledge with the community, then politley give an answer or recomendation.
Far too often I see people bitch about searching, and I see that as arrogant and selfish. There is no law that says you have to reply to every request, so feel free to stay quiet. The OP will get the hint when no one replies..........
I, for one, have found searching to be such a watered down concept filled with pointless threads that bring you in no specific direction. Too many people are posting opinions and a clear answer is not found. On top of that, a mirad of these "go search" threads add to the mess - pushing a potentially good thread back
I believe s'nwyvern' said it very eloquently in his first post on this thread. I applaud you. We are a community, not a nich social group. I, for one, am here to help; not flame. My post counts are low....for a reason. I search regurarly, and answer when I can. I have been a memember of this forum since the late 1990's and have seen a downward trend of politeness.
My only contribution to all of this is that the mods make a new "technical" section where threads w/ valid questions are posted and are filtered with just a correct answer(s). Kind of like a modified FAQ page but only answers are allowed - no opinions, etc. I just get fed up with all the pages of persoanl comments and opinions that serve no purpose in the thread. You do a search and it has 6 or 10 pages before the answer is provided by a competent person. Just search a TII swap and see the list of pages go on and on...and on, and on....and on! Most are not correct, give mis-information, and are not an easy read. This way, a searcher can search just the new technical section to filter out the searchs.
The purpose of the forum is to bring value to the community. Yes, some people will just not search, but we can't control that; nor should we try. Just ignore them.
Far too often I see people bitch about searching, and I see that as arrogant and selfish. There is no law that says you have to reply to every request, so feel free to stay quiet. The OP will get the hint when no one replies..........
I, for one, have found searching to be such a watered down concept filled with pointless threads that bring you in no specific direction. Too many people are posting opinions and a clear answer is not found. On top of that, a mirad of these "go search" threads add to the mess - pushing a potentially good thread back
I believe s'nwyvern' said it very eloquently in his first post on this thread. I applaud you. We are a community, not a nich social group. I, for one, am here to help; not flame. My post counts are low....for a reason. I search regurarly, and answer when I can. I have been a memember of this forum since the late 1990's and have seen a downward trend of politeness.
My only contribution to all of this is that the mods make a new "technical" section where threads w/ valid questions are posted and are filtered with just a correct answer(s). Kind of like a modified FAQ page but only answers are allowed - no opinions, etc. I just get fed up with all the pages of persoanl comments and opinions that serve no purpose in the thread. You do a search and it has 6 or 10 pages before the answer is provided by a competent person. Just search a TII swap and see the list of pages go on and on...and on, and on....and on! Most are not correct, give mis-information, and are not an easy read. This way, a searcher can search just the new technical section to filter out the searchs.
The purpose of the forum is to bring value to the community. Yes, some people will just not search, but we can't control that; nor should we try. Just ignore them.
09-16-10, 11:45 AM
#17
Moderator
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ive been on here since the winter of 1999, and ive seen a LOT of people come and go. i have read a lot, learned a lot, and helped a few people too.
here are a couple of observations.
1. i agree, when the question is poorly worded, or in broken english, or not asked correctly, its hard to answer. broken english is better than OMG what is wrong with my car...
2. the FAQ/archives; this is a huge problem in the FC section, most of the FAQ's are INCORRECT! its actually been GOOD that the links are broken.... not as a big a problem with the 1st gens...
3. the search can suck. it could actually use another field, so you could search for TWO things, instead of one. it either comes up with 10,000 pages of classifieds, or not much. its actually better to use google to search the forum, if you want results. although if you made a thread about it google only comes up with your thread. so does search work? yes. is it easy, and does it work well? no.
and finally, you know this is supposed to be fun, or at least educational, or something. you don't have to answer every post, or even read em all. if there are 7 "how do i turbo my 12a" questions on the first page, DON'T CLICK ON THEM. you'll be happier. there are a lot of us who know lots of different things. if i don't know how to do something, someone else will.
mike
here are a couple of observations.
1. i agree, when the question is poorly worded, or in broken english, or not asked correctly, its hard to answer. broken english is better than OMG what is wrong with my car...
2. the FAQ/archives; this is a huge problem in the FC section, most of the FAQ's are INCORRECT! its actually been GOOD that the links are broken.... not as a big a problem with the 1st gens...
3. the search can suck. it could actually use another field, so you could search for TWO things, instead of one. it either comes up with 10,000 pages of classifieds, or not much. its actually better to use google to search the forum, if you want results. although if you made a thread about it google only comes up with your thread. so does search work? yes. is it easy, and does it work well? no.
and finally, you know this is supposed to be fun, or at least educational, or something. you don't have to answer every post, or even read em all. if there are 7 "how do i turbo my 12a" questions on the first page, DON'T CLICK ON THEM. you'll be happier. there are a lot of us who know lots of different things. if i don't know how to do something, someone else will.
mike
09-16-10, 02:16 PM
#19
Lives on the Forum
Here's my approach to this issue:
When I come across a very good thread on a common topic, I save it in my Favorites in a special folder. That way, the next time I see a thread on that topic, I can post the link to the proper thread. This doesn't eliminate all of the clutter in the search results, but at least the threads that get pulled up will direct the searcher to the proper thread.
Somebody wants to reduce the slop in the steering? I've got a thread for that saved in my Favorites.
Want to upgrade the fuel pump? Got it.
Bad coolant seal? Got that too.
I've currently got something like 20 threads saved. This might not be the "best" solution to the problem, but it was the best I could come up with at the time.
And I agree, there is nothing worse than seeing a new member crushed undeservedly....
.
When I come across a very good thread on a common topic, I save it in my Favorites in a special folder. That way, the next time I see a thread on that topic, I can post the link to the proper thread. This doesn't eliminate all of the clutter in the search results, but at least the threads that get pulled up will direct the searcher to the proper thread.
Somebody wants to reduce the slop in the steering? I've got a thread for that saved in my Favorites.
Want to upgrade the fuel pump? Got it.
Bad coolant seal? Got that too.
I've currently got something like 20 threads saved. This might not be the "best" solution to the problem, but it was the best I could come up with at the time.
And I agree, there is nothing worse than seeing a new member crushed undeservedly....
.
09-16-10, 03:32 PM
#20
Sin City Rotary
I'm going to throw in my two cents for what it is worth and with alll due respect of course.
What you guys have complied here over the years is a mass of knowledge which frankly may intimidate someone as it is overwhelming to someone new to the Rotary world. While there may be tons of info a newbie may have trouble comprehending the info they are reading as the rotary is new to them. While there is always the potential there have been improvements or product that has since become available
While it may become old to repeatly answer the questions over and over your helping establish the future. Kentetsu has a great idea to book mark parituclar threads. Frankly I think it should be handled on a case by case basis because of course there are the lazy who will use you as a crutch but in the same breath there will be the sincere that are just having a bit of a time wrapping their brain around the concepts of porting and such, I know I did.
Ultimately if the newbie is flamed and/or made uncomfortable what will become of that?
Worse case senario they get frustrated call the wrecking yard and away goes another one of these fine little cars to crusher. Instead if we are patient perhaps they will stick around long enough to see there is a genuine interest in these cars and see their efforts are not fruitless and if the time comes they decide to part with their 7 (or other rotary) perhaps it would be saved by a fellow member of the forum.
but as said that just my $.02
over and out
What you guys have complied here over the years is a mass of knowledge which frankly may intimidate someone as it is overwhelming to someone new to the Rotary world. While there may be tons of info a newbie may have trouble comprehending the info they are reading as the rotary is new to them. While there is always the potential there have been improvements or product that has since become available
While it may become old to repeatly answer the questions over and over your helping establish the future. Kentetsu has a great idea to book mark parituclar threads. Frankly I think it should be handled on a case by case basis because of course there are the lazy who will use you as a crutch but in the same breath there will be the sincere that are just having a bit of a time wrapping their brain around the concepts of porting and such, I know I did.
Ultimately if the newbie is flamed and/or made uncomfortable what will become of that?
Worse case senario they get frustrated call the wrecking yard and away goes another one of these fine little cars to crusher. Instead if we are patient perhaps they will stick around long enough to see there is a genuine interest in these cars and see their efforts are not fruitless and if the time comes they decide to part with their 7 (or other rotary) perhaps it would be saved by a fellow member of the forum.
but as said that just my $.02
over and out
09-16-10, 11:06 PM
#22
Old [Sch|F]ool
I'm active and inactive on the forum as time and budget permits. Because of this recent "attitude" even I have some trepidation in asking about available FI intakes for the S1 13b, if a FI intake is attainable/worth it for the 12a and if my square bore TBI plan is actually the best bet--
There are none, as Series 1s never came with a 13B.
It's possible with NA-sourced bolt-on parts, as long as you build the engine with a GSL-SE center housing.
Best is such a nebulous term. Try it and tell us how it works!
I don't hang out in the 1st-gen section much anymore and haven't for a long time, partly because I haven't actually owned a "1st-gen" since 2006 or thereabouts, so I don't have daily experience with which solenoid controls what, or how the factory stereo is wired, or such.
But mostly because all of the threads can be boiled down to:
"I wanna strip my rats nest"
"Stipped carb tutorial??"
"Why do people take out the rotary instead of trying to understand it" (note the delicious irony, here)
"HALP! Rats nest removed - now it won't run right"
"What wheels look best?"
09-16-10, 11:59 PM
#24
But mostly because all of the threads can be boiled down to:
"I wanna strip my rats nest"
"Stipped carb tutorial??"
"Why do people take out the rotary instead of trying to understand it" (note the delicious irony, here)
"HALP! Rats nest removed - now it won't run right"
"What wheels look best?"
"I wanna strip my rats nest"
"Stipped carb tutorial??"
"Why do people take out the rotary instead of trying to understand it" (note the delicious irony, here)
"HALP! Rats nest removed - now it won't run right"
"What wheels look best?"
Too bad it can't check for number of threads actually read for the minimum.
09-17-10, 01:13 AM
#25
Wrkn Toyota, Rootn Wankel
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I guess I'll toss in my two cents also.
I have noticed the amount of flippant comments that come across very condescending and unfriendly popping up in new threads recently. I have to say that I am rather disappointed in the "flamers" because of their attitude. While I agree that it becomes extremely annoying to be answering the same question constantly because most people are too lazy to search (though searching doesn't always work, more on that later), I don't think its right to act that way and to potentially turn away a member looking for help.
I agree that new members need to do some research before they start asking redundant questions. Recalling an example I saw a few months back where a member made a new "How to Swap a TII" thread when someone's existing Build Thread explaining it was pretty much top 3 on the forum. Unfortunately not all members are going to bother to read the rules and FAQ's, but that doesn't give anyone the right to basically beat them down for being ignorant or stupid, at least be somewhat polite. I remember when I first started on the forum, I was not only ignorant but very misinformed and had members correct me constantly, but they were for the most part very polite and patient with me. (wow, that's embarrassing to remember..
)
Now Searching is all good and fun, but it does not answer every question out there. I agree that people need to at least do some research on things like Rat's Nest, TII Swap, Turbocharging a 12A, ect. Even then, sometimes what comes up on searches isn't all that helpful depending on how they look it up. Not everyone uses the exact same keywords to search with and not everyone is going to spend half an hour trying multiple combinations and attempts. Which is why many people would just rather open a new thread in hopes that someone will answer their question quicker and more accurately.
Basically, if you don't have something nice to say... maybe you shouldn't say it? The search function is not the end all be all to every problem. Members should treat each other with respect on the forum, no matter age/ethnicity/gender/or mostly as it crops up, length of time they've been a member on the forum. So put the e-peens away and try to help these misinformed and often lazily ignorant people or don't bother making yourself look like a bitter old ***.
Now then, I'm done with my little soapbox stand-up, who else wants to use the soapbox now?
I have noticed the amount of flippant comments that come across very condescending and unfriendly popping up in new threads recently. I have to say that I am rather disappointed in the "flamers" because of their attitude. While I agree that it becomes extremely annoying to be answering the same question constantly because most people are too lazy to search (though searching doesn't always work, more on that later), I don't think its right to act that way and to potentially turn away a member looking for help.
I agree that new members need to do some research before they start asking redundant questions. Recalling an example I saw a few months back where a member made a new "How to Swap a TII" thread when someone's existing Build Thread explaining it was pretty much top 3 on the forum. Unfortunately not all members are going to bother to read the rules and FAQ's, but that doesn't give anyone the right to basically beat them down for being ignorant or stupid, at least be somewhat polite. I remember when I first started on the forum, I was not only ignorant but very misinformed and had members correct me constantly, but they were for the most part very polite and patient with me. (wow, that's embarrassing to remember..
)Now Searching is all good and fun, but it does not answer every question out there. I agree that people need to at least do some research on things like Rat's Nest, TII Swap, Turbocharging a 12A, ect. Even then, sometimes what comes up on searches isn't all that helpful depending on how they look it up. Not everyone uses the exact same keywords to search with and not everyone is going to spend half an hour trying multiple combinations and attempts. Which is why many people would just rather open a new thread in hopes that someone will answer their question quicker and more accurately.
Basically, if you don't have something nice to say... maybe you shouldn't say it? The search function is not the end all be all to every problem. Members should treat each other with respect on the forum, no matter age/ethnicity/gender/or mostly as it crops up, length of time they've been a member on the forum. So put the e-peens away and try to help these misinformed and often lazily ignorant people or don't bother making yourself look like a bitter old ***.
Now then, I'm done with my little soapbox stand-up, who else wants to use the soapbox now?