jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Pressure drop?

That would be a function of the filter media type and the surface area of the filter media. If you have greater media area, you will have lower pressure drop. Probably not enough to measure, comparing two comparable quality filters.

As to the idea of having increased oil capacity to improve oil cooling: The engine heats the oil. The oil cooler removes the heat from the oil. Increasing the capacity of the oil within the system alone without increasing the heat rejection capacity of the oil cooler does nothing except provide a little bit of a flywheel effect. The oil will take a little longer to attain maximum temperature and a little longer to cool off from that maximum temperature when the heat load is reduced. This effect would be neglibeble and have no bearing on any function that the oil has within the engine.

Ok, it will take longer for your oil to reach operating temperature on a cold start which is not necessarily good, but probably an unmeasurable amount.

Our rotaries are designed for about 5 quarts of oil and that is enough to do the job the engineers wanted the oil to do. No more no less, UNLESS something significant is changed such as a larger oil pan or an oil cooler. The super large oil filter is of no real benefit.

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

For interests sake I've pulled apart and measured the surface area of a Fram vs. Wix vs. OEM. The OEM doesn't have more filter area, they're all reasonably close to each other. Keep in mind that a lot of those online filter tests were done a long time ago.

j200pruf

iTrader: (4)

Instead of this why don't you just use a remote filter block, hell then you could use two filters if you want.

Rx7Ridah

iTrader: (8)

i too have disassembled quite a few different oil filters and surprise!!! they are all near identical. most of them are made by a few companies and relabeled for each distributor (i.e. quaker state). there are only a few significant differences: manufactures' rated filtration, whether or not it has an anti-drainback valve, and the relief valve psi. i happen to have a quaker state filter application guide next to me (i run a service garage) and the recommended filter (qs14461) has an anti-drainback valve and release psi is 12-15 psi. i personally use a different filter (qs14610) which has the anti drainback valve and release is 14-18psi. the filter itself is small in size and easier to install and remove around the stock tmic.

deadRX7Conv

There is more to a filter then "media surface area". Media material, type, thickness, holding capacity.............. are just as important. The whole "my filter has more media than yours" is a BS argument. Debate it all you want.
Particle counts, during a used oil analysis, is the only way to determine whether one brand filters better than the other.

I've used oversized filters for over a decade. My RX7 has an oversized filter on it right now. The ADBV keeps the oil from draining back. If it didn't work, then I wouldn't need to punch a hole in my filter prior to removal to reduce the known 'mess' that Rx7's owners deal with at every filter change.

If you real want to supersize, you'll need a remotely mounted the filter. A 1-2 quart oil filter is cheaper then an aftermarket oil pan and coolers. And, remote filter placement can aid in oil cooling. You can even use a double filter mount for 2-4 quarts of added capacity. Anyone with an accurate oil temp gauge who is experiencing excessive oil temp at the track should consider large remote filter(s).

Here are some of the Wix PN's to look into:
51356 stock
51334
51344
51347
51318
Most brands can be cross referenced for the above PN's.
Whether the extra ~pint of oil makes a difference in your application if for you to test. But, oversized and undersized filters are used by the automakers. Smaller filters fit easier for clearance and are cheaper to buy. Bigger filters tend to be on engines in heavy equipment. And, at least 1 German automaker TSB'd a larger filter for their known sludge monster 1.8T.

I can only think of 3 negatives to a bigger filter. Bigger mess when changing. More oil u$ed at every oil change. And, a couple more seconds of initial 'no oil PSI' for those owners who are too lazy to prefill the filter when changing.

Most online oil filter studies are "opinions". Please find one oil filter study that includes any type of media testing with particle counts or media holding capacity. I thought so!

Engineers work under the whips of cost accountants.
Using OEM engineers as a debating point is useless. These same engineers stuck sucky stock parts like the: exhaust/intake/bushings/header/smogpump/pulleys/shocks/springs/swaybars/radiator/oilcooler/........AND all the other parts, that the aftermarket has a replacements for, and any parts we just remove or upgrade.

What is acceptable, when considering cost to benefit, on a stock engine isn't necessarily the best on a modified motor.

Concerning Fram, I don't use them. But, of the hundreds that I've pulled off cars, NONE ever caused engine damage or failure. If you must use Fram, pay extra for the toughgard or extendedgard filters.

NZConvertible

Car manufactureres don't make oil filters. They're all supplied by a specialist manufacturer to the company's specs.

The oil filter I installed yesterday had "Mazda Genuine part", "Made in Japan" and "Tokyo Koyo Ltd" printed on it.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Lots of great information and obviously an issue into which you have invested much thought and research. You expand the discussion along lines very close to my thinking.

Most of us cannot afford to do oil analysis on the different filters and even if we could afford the expense, none of us have the flexiblity or the environment to have a really correctly configured controlled experiment yielding verifiable, repeatable results.

I know that SAE standard testing is done by the filter manufacturers. These standards are intended to provide uniform testing standards that assure the filters meet minimum standards. They all do meet those standards. The test data is is then spun, manipulated, distorted and if necessary truncated by the Marketing department. If you believe that the data published by oil filter company internal testing is valid, accurate and unbiased, I have some swamp land in florida that I would like to sell you.

Therefore Bobistheoilfilterhacksawguy is a source of data based on the internal construction and observed quality that is helpful but not the end all. For example, he expresses reservations about some construction details that are non-issues.

I am curious. After all this, what is the reason you personally use an oversize filter on your RX7?

Thanks for the information and the response.

jack

Icemark

That must have been a very very old filter.

deadRX7Conv

Its simply an ego thing. Bigger is better. Lately, my Rx7 doesn't get the maintenance that it deserves. Maybe that extra pint of oil capacity and 'boutique' filter media will make up for the neglect.

I don't care to buy online for Mazda filters since there are plenty of local auto parts stores. Dealers around here are crooks.

My filters are made right here in the USA. I'm trying to support the few manufacturing jobs still left in this country.

And, I personally avoid all those "so called" superior OEM parts and recommendations.
Automakers don't make filters. They contract out to various MFG's. Whoever win$ the bid gets to supply the filter.
And, even though 'marketing departments' multilate the ASTM test data, at least aftermarket companies 'have' that data. Is there ANY available data on an OEM filter?

Having one filter fit various Hondas, Mazdas, Kias, Subarus, Hyundais, Mitsubishis, Nissans,.......... keeps the garage filter inventory low when someone comes over for an oil change.
That being said, you should see the look on peoples faces when they pop the hood on a Mazda equipped with a Nissan, Kia, or Honda oil filter.
Its a great way to confuse those JippyLube employees when you pull your Mazda in for an oil change, they remove a Kia filter, and then install the Honda filter that you supply. I love watching the negative head nodding ignorance.

Some will argue that full flow oil filters are useless appendages. The only true oil filter is a ~10% bypass low micron scrubbing filter. A roll of toilet paper will filter more stuff, filter smaller particles, and hold more than any filter you can screw onto that stock 13b oil filter mount. Whats a roll of toilet paper cost compared to your oil filter?
With that logic, any oil filter is good enough for the 3k/3mo crowd! Your engine will last just as long with the ~$2 store brand filters and generic motor oil, with frequent maintenance and regular topping off.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Hmmm, pretty funny. I think you have what Freud might call-

'Filter Envy'

BTW,

I agree with you 100%. There is way more to a filter than media surface area.

It is not however a bs argument or even an argument. But, if there is a debate, you and I are on the same side of this issue.

You and I agree 100%; you just point out the variables which I defined as non-variables:

That means that the other variables you mentioned are not a factor, because I have by definition stated that 'all other things are equal. You most likely use an oversize oil filter for the same reason(s) I do. The larger filter has lower face velocity and greater particle holding capacity than the smaller filter with the same media type, configuration etc. IOW 'Bigger is Better'!

What I did not mean to infer that because brand P has greater filter media area than brand F it is the better filter. I mean that brand P oversized with 400 sq in of filter media is a better choice than brand P standard size with 200 sq in of filter media.

Yes, Bobtheoilfilterhacksawguy filter review allows us to form an *opinion* based on what he found inside. The opinion we can form is an educated opinion if we take the data for what it is. Data.

The biggest problem I notice his information is that some 'branded' filters were referenced as having a manufacturing source change, ie this brand used to be made by this source but is now made by this source. Also, some branded filters use different sources in different sizes. Even the mazda oems are rumoured to have changed sources. The information is at best not current. We can therefore only draw generalities based on trends he identifies within the various sources.

This all makes me uncertain what the next branded filter will be like, so I use a brand is also a manufacturer. I use Purolator in an (slightly) oversize config. I know it is a fine qualty filter, has plenty of capacity and it also fits my 2003 Honda Accord, my 2-RX7's, my wifes 92 Celica convertible and my sons Honda whatever Rasp-o-Matic. One Filter to Rule Them All. Not the 4 different Purolators that will all be slightly smaller, but one filter for all my applications that is a nice upgrade in size for all of my filter needs.

deadRX7Conv

I found a somewhat less opinionated more factual oil study.

The website is down but archive.org has most the info. Supposedly the website will be up and running in a week or so.

http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/

NZConvertible

Ha! that'll teach me to rely on my memory. I checked it and it's made by Tokyo Roki Co. Ltd.

Bluewind

iTrader: (16)

Reading the title of this thread really has me worried about the people who even considered it.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Nice find.

Good additional information. It puts some of Bob's conclusions in a new light; I don't know if it contradicts anything that bobthehacksawoilfilterdissectionguy found in his study, except that maybe the Frams are not quite as bad as everyone believes. I will be interested to see the site up and running. I could not get the excel file to open after downloading. It was probably trying to populate the data from the web site, which of course is not up.

thanks

Icemark

Yeah, that is the company that built the filters before Mazda USA switched to Tennex.

and a better filter IMO. Too bad we can't get them here anymore. I liked the silcon rubber anti-drain back and synthetic & cotton blend filter media.

But people were bitching about a $8 filter on thier $25,000 car so Mazda USA sourced Tennex to start building them around late 99, early 2000.

Then Tennex switched to a French factory... so I am not sure who is building them in Fance now, if it is a subsiduary of Tennex or just a sub contractor. I have been just buying in bulk the Tokyo Roki or (Nippon)Denso filters when I can find them.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

For those who are having a hard time finding the information, here is the direct link.
http://web.archive.org/web/200503111...lterstudy.com/

MaxRX7

I use a (longer) oil filter from a 626 V6 on a protege5 with 0 problems, but not reallt much advantage either.

NZConvertible

Damn, I'm quite happy to pay NZ$23 (~US$14) for a filter from Mazda. Worth every penny IMO.

That's a good idea. Like jackhild said above, a bigger filter from the same manufacturer will always provide superior filtration. Next oil change I'll have chat to the parts guys at the local Mazda dealer and see what they've got.

SilvioRX7

What do you oil filter guru's think about this oil filter? Is it worth it or is it just

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...hItemId=398871

deadRX7Conv

The problem with stainless steel mesh is that it filters poorly. 30 microns is nothing to brag about. Most oil filters can do that easily.
The cost is also too expensive. For that money, your approaching a bypass filter kit(most will filter down to <2 microns). I actually wouldn't even consider a mesh filter like that without a bypass filter. The bypass filter will pick up everything else that this filter passes through.

The benefit of this type of filter filter is that it is reusable. Just clean and reinstall. You'll need a parts washer tank, otherwise cans of carb cleaner/brake parts cleaner will get expensive at every oil filter cleaning.
Its very purty. Would look at good under the hood if polished/anodized/.......definitely recommended for the show crowd.
For the race crowd, the stainless mesh filter flows extremely well. This is for those that are looking for the least oil pump restriction and the most oil PSI in the engine. I also assume that the race crowd overly maintains their vehicle and dumps the oil after every track session/race day.
Since the filtering, IMO, is coarse. You probably won't need to clean it as often as changing a normal filter. This makes up for the cost of cleaning sprays if you don't have a parts washer. In normal operation, I'd guess that you'll change the oil 4 or 5 times before yanking the mesh element for a washing.
And, like any filter cartridge, you can inspect your media for large particles which can possibly detect future failures.

SilvioRX7

deadRX7Conv: You mentioned using a bypass filter. That would be what, another oil filter somewhere inline after the mesh filter?

deadRX7Conv

A bypass filter is a very low flow depth media filter. It uses a metering orifice(pin hole) at its oil pressure/flow source to limit oil flow. Typically <10% flows through the bypass at peak flow.
Most who install bypass filters either T-off the oil pressure sender or the oil filter mount. The oil that 'bypasses' the engine is throughly filtered and sent back to pan, dipstick, or oil cap.
Amsoil, Frantz, Oilguard, Motorguard, Puradyn, Trasco, FiltrationSolutions, GulfcoastFilters, Filtakleen, Ntz, Reclaimo, Harvard, Pall, EnviroKleen, TripleRRR, Parker, Kleenoil, Luberfiner, Stilko.......have good information concerning bypass filters.
Bypass filters have been used for many years. Currently the Marine/Trucking/Manufacturing industries are probably the biggest users of this filtration. The auto industry, at one time, used bypass filtration but switched to full flow along with resource wasting frequent oil change intervals. These rusty old slap on filter canisters can still be found on ebay all the time.
Some of the bypass elements are expensive but can last a very long time. Others, like the Frantz or Motorguard, use a role of toilet paper as the media that needs to be changed more frequently.
And, others have built in heaters to evaporate and fuel(from running rich blowby) or moisture(benefits cold weather and short trippers) in the oil.

Bypass filtration can extend oil changes indefinitely. This means that the only maintenance you do is regular normal filter changes and bypass element changes. Its great for those of us without a garage and want to avoid jippylube. Never touch the drainplug again. Just replace the filters and top off the oil.

The best place to find the bypass filter is on ebay or at the local truck salvage yard. Just about every over the road vehicle will have some type of filtration. Note that the same 'canisters' could also be used for fuel and coolant filtering. Ebay auctions tend to get too expensive. Industrial supply sellers, auctioneers, and resellers also might have them. Most machinery with lubrication will have good filtration. Hydraulic systems will have improved lubrication.
Any small(gallon sized or less) filter canister can be adapted to oil filtration. You just need to make sure that the seals/orings are compatible with the fluid you plan on filtering and that the canister(stick with steel or aluminum) can tolerate the pressure and temp of the fluid.

Noria and theoildrop are some websites with good(and bad along with hearsay) info concerning filtration and lubrication.

SilvioRX7

deadRX7Conv: Thanks for all the info