Rotary power is under rated...
Wow...still the ongoing debate between Piston & Rotary. Id like to see both cars on the track at an event. Fun and entertaining to see who comes out on top.
The rotary in my personal opinion is a cool engine. As with all motors, it has its issues, failures, and set backs. Will I say it's far superior to a piston? Never. I find looking at any race which takes place, taking into effect the driver as well as the performance mods on both cars, help's in determining who's a better driver along with their car of choice. 24hr Lemans circa 1991, fine example of Rotary engineering and durability. Not 13b power, but rather, the wankel engine's proof of awesome performance and durability.
So for us to argue, if at all, which motor is better? I will have to say neither. That is just my opinion.
I would also like to ask , Hozz and Jimlab....will you guys ever work towards racing each other in some form of motorsport? Is this possible? Maybe. If it ever happens....guarantee I'll be excited to see the outcome.
The rotary in my personal opinion is a cool engine. As with all motors, it has its issues, failures, and set backs. Will I say it's far superior to a piston? Never. I find looking at any race which takes place, taking into effect the driver as well as the performance mods on both cars, help's in determining who's a better driver along with their car of choice. 24hr Lemans circa 1991, fine example of Rotary engineering and durability. Not 13b power, but rather, the wankel engine's proof of awesome performance and durability.
So for us to argue, if at all, which motor is better? I will have to say neither. That is just my opinion.
I would also like to ask , Hozz and Jimlab....will you guys ever work towards racing each other in some form of motorsport? Is this possible? Maybe. If it ever happens....guarantee I'll be excited to see the outcome.
Last edited by fc pro am; Jul 31, 2008 at 02:41 PM.
Super Snuggles
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 10,091
Likes: 34
From: Redmond, WA
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=208
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=196
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=224
Frankly, it's sad that I know more about rotary engines and rotary history than the so-called rotary enthusiasts.
Great that you do your research and awesome you may know more about the rotary than an enthusiast or others.
From a personal standpoint, the " One" victory that Mazda had in Le Mans race history is all that was needed to convince "Me" that the rotary engine can win races. It may not charm others or have them join the rotary camp, but oh well, to each their own.
And I'll ask just for clarification, are you saying/implying that " I" am a so-called rotary enthusiast? Not sure but it doesnt matter, yes there are those out there who own a rotary and have no clue about the engine or it's history. Still doesnt take away from the fact or possibility that a rotary can take out a piston motor and vice versa.
My next question should be what and how many races have you competed in against a Rotary? Am I wrong in saying that you are exclusive to piston motors and dislike the Rotary? Sorry, I have'nt researched you post's or threads, but felt Id ask you upfront.
From a personal standpoint, the " One" victory that Mazda had in Le Mans race history is all that was needed to convince "Me" that the rotary engine can win races. It may not charm others or have them join the rotary camp, but oh well, to each their own.
And I'll ask just for clarification, are you saying/implying that " I" am a so-called rotary enthusiast? Not sure but it doesnt matter, yes there are those out there who own a rotary and have no clue about the engine or it's history. Still doesnt take away from the fact or possibility that a rotary can take out a piston motor and vice versa.
My next question should be what and how many races have you competed in against a Rotary? Am I wrong in saying that you are exclusive to piston motors and dislike the Rotary? Sorry, I have'nt researched you post's or threads, but felt Id ask you upfront.
No it's not Turbo'd
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,511
Likes: 2
From: Los Angeles, Ca
Jimlab is the very definition of a "Smartass" he's very smart, and he can be a giant ***. Given the right circumstances. Or should I say Circumstance's since Jim usually (p)owns all his arguments 
Super Snuggles
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 10,091
Likes: 34
From: Redmond, WA
yes there are those out there who own a rotary and have no clue about the engine or it's history.
My next question should be what and how many races have you competed in against a Rotary?
What I own, have owned, drive, or have driven has no bearing on this debate. I don't have a hidden agenda to prove that a V8 (or any piston engine, for that matter) is superior, and in fact, I've never said that. What I have said is that the rotary is not superior, either from a mechanical or from a marketing standpoint. That's a subtlety that most people seem to miss when they feel their pet engine is being attacked.
Am I wrong in saying that you are exclusive to piston motors
and dislike the Rotary?
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,096
Likes: 9
From: So Cal where the OC/LA/SB counties meet
"Then you're blind as well as stupid."
Wow, now you have to stoop to that level to try and defend yourself. The only thing you've proven is that you are selective to what you respond to and you continue to avoid the key points.
To quote you, "The purpose was to disprove the theory that the rotary engine is still a gem waiting to be discovered by the masses, and the only thing holding it back is Mazda's small size, lack of R&D budget, marketing incompetence, or any other issue"
You basis to disprove that theory is that "many more Camaros, as a platform, were sold worldwide than RX-7s, more Camaros were sold than RX7s."
No, all you've proven is that a company 17 times the size of Mazda has the capacity to build a whole lot more of a specific car than Mazda can. "Say it with me... ir•rel•e•vant."
When I tried to provide some logical perspective, rather than respond with something of substance you provide a link to Wikipedia definition of a Straw Man. Well let me drop to your level for a moment and return the favor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion
First let me point out that in the early years of the RX7, the RX7 Club of America was formed. By membership, it became the single largest Car Club in the US at the time. So, by that reference, every other car was second chair to the RX7 at that time.
Second, the primary reason the RX7 fell out of US distribution is it simply priced itself out of the market. A victim of bad marketing strategy. The RX7 got on the map by being a cool sports car that the masses could afford. However, Mazda evolved their RX7 business plan and tried to go up against the price point of exotics with a car with exotic type performance numbers. But it still had a Mazda name plate.
It's happened before. In the '80s Ford imported the Merkur to compete with BMW and Mercedes. It was still a Ford, so it failed. More recently, in 2004 VW came out with the Phaeton to compete with BMW and Mercedes at a price point of $70,000 to $100,000. VERY well made car, but it is still a VW. So it failed. So, Mazda isn't alone in falling into that trap.
Image conscious consumers that buy in the higher price ranges are always more inclined to vote their dollars toward brand bragging rights. It's just that simple.
If you want to debate the merits and demerits of a Wankle vs. a Piston engine, that is an entirely different conversation. Superior BFSC, you're absolutely right. Combustion of a single power stroke is more efficient in a piston engine vs. a Wankle. But, again, the Wankle counters that it provides two power strokes for every one of a piston engine. This kind of debate is fair and actually can be fun. If you want to talk about dependability, why have I seen GSL-SE's with 400,000 miles and still going strong on the original engine? I'm not making that up.
I suggest you would be a much better champion of the LS1 crowd if you kept your focus on that rather than crude comments and innuendo’s.
Comments like "Then you're blind as well as stupid." only demonstrate your ignorance and inability to provide a response with substance.
By the way, my favorite observation from you is "Mazda built the RX-7 to sell, period. Not to cater to a small subset of sports car buyers." Probably one of the best examples of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion
Wow, now you have to stoop to that level to try and defend yourself. The only thing you've proven is that you are selective to what you respond to and you continue to avoid the key points.
To quote you, "The purpose was to disprove the theory that the rotary engine is still a gem waiting to be discovered by the masses, and the only thing holding it back is Mazda's small size, lack of R&D budget, marketing incompetence, or any other issue"
You basis to disprove that theory is that "many more Camaros, as a platform, were sold worldwide than RX-7s, more Camaros were sold than RX7s."
No, all you've proven is that a company 17 times the size of Mazda has the capacity to build a whole lot more of a specific car than Mazda can. "Say it with me... ir•rel•e•vant."
When I tried to provide some logical perspective, rather than respond with something of substance you provide a link to Wikipedia definition of a Straw Man. Well let me drop to your level for a moment and return the favor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion
First let me point out that in the early years of the RX7, the RX7 Club of America was formed. By membership, it became the single largest Car Club in the US at the time. So, by that reference, every other car was second chair to the RX7 at that time.
Second, the primary reason the RX7 fell out of US distribution is it simply priced itself out of the market. A victim of bad marketing strategy. The RX7 got on the map by being a cool sports car that the masses could afford. However, Mazda evolved their RX7 business plan and tried to go up against the price point of exotics with a car with exotic type performance numbers. But it still had a Mazda name plate.
It's happened before. In the '80s Ford imported the Merkur to compete with BMW and Mercedes. It was still a Ford, so it failed. More recently, in 2004 VW came out with the Phaeton to compete with BMW and Mercedes at a price point of $70,000 to $100,000. VERY well made car, but it is still a VW. So it failed. So, Mazda isn't alone in falling into that trap.
Image conscious consumers that buy in the higher price ranges are always more inclined to vote their dollars toward brand bragging rights. It's just that simple.
If you want to debate the merits and demerits of a Wankle vs. a Piston engine, that is an entirely different conversation. Superior BFSC, you're absolutely right. Combustion of a single power stroke is more efficient in a piston engine vs. a Wankle. But, again, the Wankle counters that it provides two power strokes for every one of a piston engine. This kind of debate is fair and actually can be fun. If you want to talk about dependability, why have I seen GSL-SE's with 400,000 miles and still going strong on the original engine? I'm not making that up.
I suggest you would be a much better champion of the LS1 crowd if you kept your focus on that rather than crude comments and innuendo’s.
Comments like "Then you're blind as well as stupid." only demonstrate your ignorance and inability to provide a response with substance.
By the way, my favorite observation from you is "Mazda built the RX-7 to sell, period. Not to cater to a small subset of sports car buyers." Probably one of the best examples of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion
Last edited by HOZZMANRX7; Jul 31, 2008 at 05:04 PM.
What I own, have owned, drive, or have driven has no bearing on this debate.
You should ask me how many races I competed in with a rotary.
. How many races approx? Any victories? Which gen? Again, just curious.
I choose not to own one for various reasons.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,096
Likes: 9
From: So Cal where the OC/LA/SB counties meet
DCrosby - "Jimlab is the very definition of a "Smartass" he's very smart, and he can be a giant ***."
And now you can add to his resume that Jim Lab is not beneath creating false quotes from others. Guess I got too close to fact.
"A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception."
Brismo, you need to find better company.
And now you can add to his resume that Jim Lab is not beneath creating false quotes from others. Guess I got too close to fact.
"A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception."
Brismo, you need to find better company.
No it's not Turbo'd
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,511
Likes: 2
From: Los Angeles, Ca
The fact is there are choices to be made, Pepsi or Coke, Smoking or Non, PC or Mac, and when we make those choices, we'd like to think that we've made the "best" choice, and will naturally try to convince others to solidify and justify our own. That's just human nature, nobody likes to be wrong, so I just stand on the fact that it was the right choice for me, and you have to make your own determination, Fuel Efficiencies, Detonation, Weight, whatever.... your decision, your choice....
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,096
Likes: 9
From: So Cal where the OC/LA/SB counties meet
DCrosby, remind me. The red FD isn't your first. The prior one ended up a victim of a rather steep detour on a run. Right?
If so, last time I saw you was at a Hooters meet about a year ago or more. I remember the LSD work on your Red FD was VERY well done.
Sidebar: Did you hear that Joe Romeo is in town?
If so, last time I saw you was at a Hooters meet about a year ago or more. I remember the LSD work on your Red FD was VERY well done.
Sidebar: Did you hear that Joe Romeo is in town?
No it's not Turbo'd
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,511
Likes: 2
From: Los Angeles, Ca
DCrosby, remind me. The red FD isn't your first. The prior one ended up a victim of a rather steep detour on a run. Right?
If so, last time I saw you was at a Hooters meet about a year ago or more. I remember the LSD work on your Red FD was VERY well done.
Sidebar: Did you hear that Joe Romeo is in town?
If so, last time I saw you was at a Hooters meet about a year ago or more. I remember the LSD work on your Red FD was VERY well done.
Sidebar: Did you hear that Joe Romeo is in town?
No Sorry, Yes, my Old FD ended up on it's roof in the desert... Where are you going with this, it was my choice to wreck it ? Kinda... I drove it that day...
LSD ? LS1? Yes I was at hooters and the install was like 3 Mo. Old... it's still running well... If you recall I also went through 3 (Rotary) Motors Prior to that....
Joe Romero, that name sounds familiar, but can't put a face to him at the moment... John Romero, I know what he looks like but I wouldn't want to meet him unless he's handing over the keys to his F40...
-DC
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,096
Likes: 9
From: So Cal where the OC/LA/SB counties meet
Not going anywhere with it other than to confirm my memory. The TII I drove that night is the one I just sold. I miss it already.
I remember your not so great FD 13B experiences. What I also remember is the attention to detail in your LS1 install made it look like it came that way from the factory. If you're going to do the LS1 thing, that's the way to do it.
I think Joe is intending on going to Ricky and Ronnies this Saturday. So, there's your opportunity to grab those keys.
As to your description of Jimlab, based on this writing exercise I've concluded you are at least half right.
Late
I remember your not so great FD 13B experiences. What I also remember is the attention to detail in your LS1 install made it look like it came that way from the factory. If you're going to do the LS1 thing, that's the way to do it.
I think Joe is intending on going to Ricky and Ronnies this Saturday. So, there's your opportunity to grab those keys.
As to your description of Jimlab, based on this writing exercise I've concluded you are at least half right.
Late
No it's not Turbo'd
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,511
Likes: 2
From: Los Angeles, Ca
This is whom I was referring to, and he owns a Ferrari F40 Twin Turbo, and Lives in Austin TX.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Romero
Well Jimlab and me have crossed paths 1X not in person, but in business, and I was not impressed. I do have a lot of respect for him mechanically, he knows his ****, and can back it up. Inter personal relationships are not his strong suit though But it's always entertaining seeing someone spar with him. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Romero
Well Jimlab and me have crossed paths 1X not in person, but in business, and I was not impressed. I do have a lot of respect for him mechanically, he knows his ****, and can back it up. Inter personal relationships are not his strong suit though
But it's always entertaining seeing someone spar with him.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,096
Likes: 9
From: So Cal where the OC/LA/SB counties meet
"Well Jimlab and me have crossed paths 1X not in person, but in business, and I was not impressed."
I share in your impression. Especially when he closed by putting up a totally fabricated quote I supposedly made. The guy reminds me of a character in the Jack Nicholson film One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
I share in your impression. Especially when he closed by putting up a totally fabricated quote I supposedly made. The guy reminds me of a character in the Jack Nicholson film One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
No it's not Turbo'd
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,511
Likes: 2
From: Los Angeles, Ca
I guess I should correct that statement, in that we never actually completed a transaction, and I have nothing bad to state about any product of jimlab's.
We merely discussed a product of his, and I was very impressed by his knowledge and workmanship, yet unimpressed by his customer service, and pre-sales attitude. Which at the time dealing with other members in the RX7 - V8 Swap Community left me wondering what his post sales support would be, and scared me off.
We merely discussed a product of his, and I was very impressed by his knowledge and workmanship, yet unimpressed by his customer service, and pre-sales attitude. Which at the time dealing with other members in the RX7 - V8 Swap Community left me wondering what his post sales support would be, and scared me off.