V8RX7com

OK maybe if you started with a Turbo II

But how about in my case? I had a US spec convertible (no turbo available).

I had 3 options to keep my RX-7 convertible California emissions legal:

1. Buy a Nelson C.A.R.B. approved supercharger for an engine that had 140,000 mile on it at the time. (Also BTW nelson no longer sells superchargers so this not really an option any more) this would also only give me about 200-220HP

2. Install a complete Turbo II drivetrain then find enough C.A.R.B. legal options to put me above 300HP and I would still have to have the car "certified" by the state of California as an engine swap.

3. Install a Chevy V8 that meets the California's engine change guideline criteria.

TheTwinTurboRX-7

http://www.googlefight.com/cgi-bin/c...re=1&langue=us

I think this solves our dilemma.

BlackFC

You would get a stock clutch with the tranny/longblock and it would hold the stock motor fine, why replace it? Also I would say the MTF for an LS1 at 350hp is well over that of a 13BT, and you would be stupid to open the block unless to build it for boost or something, and then we are talking totally different HP levels.

[QUOTE]

A good choice... but you could do it yourself for less than $1000.
[/QUOTE

But, you can drop the LS1 in without rebuilding it. I have been involved in countless rotary rebuilds, no its not hard, but I believe even a used LS1 would come with some sort of warranty.


You get what you pay for, if you would build a car with cheap **** then be my guest, but I wouldn't call any of those parts exotic, they are pretty much the standard. The cheapest T04 mani you can buy, the smallest turbo you can run to achive the sought after levels. I also ommited a HKS wastegate ($400) and a BOV(250) and custom DP. I could have also quoted an E11. SO I would not say top quality but I also refuse to use cheap ****. The Greddy guages are no where near the best or the most expensive, infact they are the cheapest Japanese electronic gauges you can buy, once again you can choose to use autometer but I will not. As for the MDS, you could do without that, but that cost is covered EASILY by the wastegate, bov and exahust work. As for the FMIC, the stock TII intercooler is a restrictive POS. I also for one do not want the hassle of having an air to water intercooler for a daily driven car. DO you notice that Brian does not run his A2W core dialy on the street? For repeatable performance a FMIC will be neccesary, and i quoted the cheapest bolton kit for the job, there are plenty of more expensive spearco and even a more expensive Greddy kit.

As for the wideband with a voltile setup I would have one, hell I have one on order for my stock turbo car, it's cheaper than dyno time everytime you want to retune the car for changes (like say a new motor every few months)

Quite frankly I think we all know a used LS1 will outlast a new rotary. Also when your king of reliability Mr. Cain arrived here last week he swapped his motor out in because it was pumping water, and had been for some time. So you might want to find a new poster child The fact you tout he has a motor that lasted 2 YEARS should tell you something, two years isn't a very good fail time for a motor. And I think we all know Brian babys his car more than most.

Thank you however for presenting a LOGICAL argument, its nice to see everyone isn't a total retard.

Personally, I will probably never put an LS1 into my black 89 TII, I don't want to hack the car up like that, and I like the sound, feel and pull of the 13B. However, the swap is not the anti-christic action that it is made out to be and the rotary is not even nearly the end all be all of the internal combustion engines. It is neat and different, but as compared to a piston engine it is down on low end torque and is not nearly as reliable. I am willing to live with these quirks for now (just like DSM people live with weak trannies ect). Some people here just really need to look outside of whats infront of them. When I had my first TII I was pretty much the same as most here, but I realized there was more out there. The rotary has its place with everything else, but it is by no means king of the hill. Just be a little more open minded people. DO you realize how well the LS1 has been engineered? GM has some of the best engineers around, they are using the same basic pushrod design they have been using FOREVER, and are still WAY more than competetive when competing against newly redesigned engines.

And lastly, torque is what its all about, the LS1 just gets there sooner than the 13B.


Daniel

3isacharm

This is a great thread! Seeing some people argue opinions while others argue with facts is interesting. However, it's my turn to argue, another OPINION! The reason I love the rotary so much is because of it's efficiency (did I even spell that right?). I just can't bring myself to own something with such a large engine. Yes they're fast, but not my style. Take the viper. Alot of people talk **** about them and bladdy blabla, but they whoop some *** at the drag strip, road course, and many other events, given a good driver. I can see the V8 swap into a vert, that'd be a great idea for a daily driver, but I'd still want a turbo rotary on the side that would simply scream. Basically it all comes down to personal preference and if you want a V8, go for it, but personally, I'd throw in an SR20 before almost any other piston engine. Talk about an engineered engine, the crank can handle tons of power (yeah, i know it's torque that breaks things). You can argue which is better/cheaper/whatever, but in the end, I will love high-revving, high-hp, engines that scream to oblivion. I just don't see any stock (note, I said stock) American engines doing that. If I want torque, I'll get an old school camaro supersport to scare the living **** out of people. I've got a lot of respect for the new L series engines, but it seems that we focus too much on overall power and big numbers. getting a balanced car is what it's all about. from suspenion, to ergonomics, to power, to aerodynamics, everything should be topnotch. balance, my friend, balance. waxon, waxoff.

Icemark

V8 advocates may suggest that the LS1 will last 100K miles, but it has been my friends and family's experience that there is not a stock GM product made that will last that long without needing major work. Maybe it’s me and how I drive, but my Toyota and Mazda products have all lasted that long without even replacing a single gasket.

Something I can't say for any domestic designed/built motor I have ever seen. Maybe that is just one more reason why I will never own a domestic again.

And the V8 advocates still haven't answered how the higher positioned mass affects cornering? They say that the crank is lower than a rotary, and with the kits it lowers it ever further, but that does little to help the mass sitting so high.

And the weights that people mention should also include the tranny, and accessories. Dropping a V8 in and not having air conditioning, speed variable power steering, and emissions is a compromise that I wouldn't be willing to make.

3isacharm

i think the only way for the swapped cars to show a difference in handling would be on a track/skidpad/slalom. i realize the skidpad doesn't hold much water, but a test with the least variables is needed to obtain an "honest" answer. i think an overall handling test (one that incorporates many different handling characteristics, wet, dry, slalom, etc.) is in order, if any of you have the time to waste. is the majority of the weight of the engine in the base of the engine (aka the block and crank) or are the heads heavy in their own right? now that i think about it, the track wouldn't be a very true test of the handling, as the extra power gained could also influence lap times. but like someone said before, with some aftermarket suspension mods, it may not make a damn bit of difference.

V8RX7com

hmmm ...... I don't think anyone with a V8 RX-7 (certainly not me) wants to be labeled an "advocate". (except for maybe Grannys who are cashing in on the idea) I myself, would own another rotary powered RX-7 again .... and I would also consider building another V8 RX-7 because I think both have their place.

Do you guys really lose that much sleep over what other people do to their cars?

Rotorific

iTrader: (1)

I sort of do when i see a V8 in it. Dont get me wrong but putting a V8 inside a rotary engine bay just takes away the whole meaning of owning an RX-7. I take pride in having just 1.3 liters of naturally aspirated power sitting under my hood. Its not much, but it still makes me feel better than owning anything else. Someone that has put a V8 in their car obviously deserves credit for putting in the effort and making it work but they get no respect from me for having that same V8 in there. I dont care if the motor makes 330hp stock Id rather have 330 turbocharged hp from a 13b - Gabe

Icemark

What else would you call someone that keeps saying his way of change is the best besides an advocate?

And I am certainly never loosing sleep over how people mod their cars... I may laugh at it... I may tease them about it... I may admire...

But not one person has been able to justify or come up with one argument for a V8 swap that is completely valid and stands up, except for that you can have 450+ HP and ft/lbs, and that is something that is meaningless to me.

BogusFile

Heres the thing...
You guys know that domestic V8s are more reliable than a 13b or any rotary for that matter. You know they create more power, and you know that they are easier and cheaper to work on.
Can any of this really be debated any longer???
I have seen rotary engines last untill 300K miles, which is admirable. At the same time, I have seen Big Block Chevys go 300K miles, and on one occasion I saw a Big Block with 500+K miles one the motor with out any major component failure. It did need new main bearings, which required the block to be machined again. You see.... with a Chevy V8 you can hone or bore the motor out, and rebuild another motor that could easily last another 200K miles between rebuilds. Once a housing goes bad, its bad.... only use for it is as a decoration in someones room..... which I have seen on many occasions.

I am definetely not trying to say that the Chevy V8 is more suitable than the Rotary for an RX-7. I am just saying that if practicality, reliability, and bang for buck are your main concern.... the V8 swap is an option that you should seriously consider. Otherwise enjoy your rotary to the fullest. I certainly enjoyed my TII, and I enjoy my current V8 FC equally as much.

As far as the V8 having a Higher Center of gravity.....
I argued the same point a few years ago when I was against the V8 swap. You know what I realized? The marginal difference that it can make will not effect my driving style. Besides, the problems associated with the higher center of gravity can be easily remedied, with a little suspension/drivetrain modification. I have said it before, and I will say it again..... There is no reason to take your RX-7's handling potential to its limits on public
roads. Save it for the road coarse.

TheTwinTurboRX-7

I am so not an advocate. Not in the least. I would never do this to my car. You are either not reading or not paying attention. The weight is solved by the engine being moved back and lowered to deal with the issues of the motor being more top heavy.

BogusFile

And a thicker anti sway bar.

bingoboy

for all of you who seem upset by the v8 swapper guys...calm down. its their car, they will do what they want (and have every right to do). don't worry, i can almost completely assure you that they won't sneak up in the night and do a v8 conversion on your car .

BlackFC

Well being as I want one, but don't want to do it to my car, I might try something like that.

Daniel

V8RX7com

Then:

My rotary RX-7 convertible was 3100 lbs. and had 180 HP (with modifications) it was "not street legal" due to the fact that I had no catalytic converter (which is a big fine if you get caught) and my rotary powered convertible was loud and it was still getting beat up by old ladies in Hondas.

Now:

My V8 RX-7 convertible is 3200 lbs. Which is about 200 lbs. lighter then a striped to the bone (lightened) hardtop F-body Camaro and has 300 hp with 350 lbs. of twist. It will still out handle "most" cars and it also blows the doors off “most” cars on the road, and it is as quiet as a stock 13B and it “is” street legal ….. meaning I don’t have to “bribe” someone to make it pass California emissions.

this is not a valid argument?

Icemark

No I read that perfectly fine...

But because of the oil pan and accessories (like air conditioning, Alt and power steering) you are limited to how much lower you can drop that engine. I would doubt that the bottom of the pan sits any lower than the bottom of the rotary's oil pan... perhaps the V8 engine centerline is further back (which would be a good thing), but the major mass of the V8 motor is still going to be higher than the major mass of the Rotary or you are loosing the accesssories.

If I am wrong by all means please let me know, by proving what the V8 advicates claim, with pictures or measurements. But if it is the same, "I replaced the head(s) with an aluminum one so now the engine is lighter" and "I chopped out the ... (firewall/air conditioning/ etc) so it would fit" and simular BS.

Icemark

No, again that goes back to my HP is meaningless comments. I don't need 300HP or to race and win to justify my driving experience. AS I mentioned above, is there any justification other than raw HP and torque???

I think its been said, that without modifications to the engine, and relocation of components the weight issue, is not viable.

And that its been said in other threads the swap cost issue (not even including the dismal resale value of a V8 RX-7) has been proved to be not viable.

With the V8 the suspension needs changes, so the engine placement issue is negated.

If we go into modifications, yes the GM V8 can be made lighter and to power up 300+hp. But so can the rotary, so those negate each other.

Smoothness??? Rotary has that beat.

Reliability, while the GM V8 might have major components that are more reliable, and less things need to be replaced on a rebuild, they have considerably lower reliability with leaks, small parts failure and recalls than any Mazda or even imported Japanese product.

So is there any argument other than just HP?


My 2950 lb 88 ‘vert does around 200-225 Hp and is perfectly street legal in CA, and listening or looking at it you couldn't tell it was any different than a regular 'vert except the FMIC behind the grill and the boost gauge on the pillar. So even if I was into the street racing scene (which I out grew years ago) my 250 lbs lighter almost identical car probably would be beaten by yours in a drag race... Would that make you feel better.

V8RX7com

Icemark,

You still haven’t addressed my question on how to get that kind of horsepower and still pass California emissions. Also, if you don’t care about horsepower why do you drive a sports car?

yes .... HP is not the only factor of a owning sports car but are you saying HP is not an important factor of owning a sports car?


Also, have you ever driving a N/A convertible RX-7?

Also, Have you ever driven a V8 converted RX-7?

Rotorific

iTrader: (1)

Have you ever driven an 88 GTU (i just drove mine home last night) have you ever driven an 02 SS(well i only rode in it last night.) So whats your point They are two totally different cars. They make their horsepower and torque ratings at totally different places on a dyno sheet and there is a big difference in weight, so what. An NA RX-7 is only a sports car for its handling characteristics. A turboII is the true sports car of the late 80's early 90's I drive an NA everyday and do i think its a sports car? yes but do i go around saying look at me im fast? hell no. Would i think any different if i drove a "V8RX-7" Hell no because there is no way it would handle the way my car does now and if i really wanted to ride in a V8 id just call my friends. -Gabe

V8RX7com

that was my point ... you guys keep telling me my car doesn't handle anymore because I installed a V8.

but my V8 RX-7 is now a totally different car and I'm the one driving it so I think I would know how it handles more then people who are just guessing

JusRollin

OK.. If brian babies his car as in actualy BABIES it.. his engine shouldn't have lasted two years.. the reason being, Rotary engines use the oil for cooling as well as water. there are oil injectors that inject oil onto the rotors to coll them off.. if you baby the car they won't inject enough oil. your SUPPOSE to run a rotary harder then you would a usual engine. by the way.. I got a chevy Beretta Z26 with 125K miles on it.. all it's needed has been regular oil changes.. couple new trannies ( the engine's good.. the tranny sucks!) and new tires regularly too... WHAT!? so i drive my car's liek i stole them.. sue me! I just like the idea of having a different engine to play with..

BlackFC

You open your mouth and do not know what you speak of. Brian does not run oil injection.

Daniel

rx7_ragtop

Ummm... the rotary is NOT efficient from a fuel-burn perspective. The V8 will get better mileage.

Brad

rx7_ragtop

This is valid... and a convertible is a better candidate for this swap than other cars, since it has more weight on the rear wheels than on the front in factory trim.

Brad

rx7_ragtop

True... he runs premix, no oil injection pump at all. However, he DOESN'T baby it. He doesn't beat on it all the time, but he definitely doesn't drive like some granny.

Brad