Finally! BNR Stage 3 high boost dyno results
07-11-05, 11:24 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by 7racer
congrats Rich....what a beast!
.When are you planning on posting a pics thread of your blue beauty?
07-12-05, 12:08 AM
#52
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Originally Posted by rebuild FD
this may be old news, but I thought it was worth posting (from Chuck Westbrook)
Note that the stock wiring suffers from voltage drop which limits capacity of stock or aftermarket pumps. Re-wiring the pump with heavy gage wire for full battery voltage will provide a huge improvement in fuel delivery. This trick to up the voltage can be taken to the extreme with aftermarket boost-a-pump electronics that further increase voltage under boost.
the wiring on these cars is total crap, let's face it
Note that the stock wiring suffers from voltage drop which limits capacity of stock or aftermarket pumps. Re-wiring the pump with heavy gage wire for full battery voltage will provide a huge improvement in fuel delivery. This trick to up the voltage can be taken to the extreme with aftermarket boost-a-pump electronics that further increase voltage under boost.
the wiring on these cars is total crap, let's face it
07-12-05, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rebuild FD
how does the 20b pump hold up?
Supra MK4 pump is direct drop in or Walbro "high press" 255 and either one will supply 450-500rwh depending on fuel pressure.
JD
07-12-05, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Boostn7
20B pump only flows slightly more then the FD pump...not worth it.
Supra MK4 pump is direct drop in or Walbro "high press" 255 and either one will supply 450-500rwh depending on fuel pressure.
JD
Supra MK4 pump is direct drop in or Walbro "high press" 255 and either one will supply 450-500rwh depending on fuel pressure.
JD
Also, with proper CURRENT feeding it, the Cosmo pump outflows the Walbro at higher fuel line pressures.
07-12-05, 06:45 PM
#56
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Awesome numbers Rich!!!! I know your happy. Dont know if your running out of fuel pump or if your dyno numbers are low due to it being a dynopak....doesnt really matter, those numbers are worst case senerio and they are nice.
You guys remember the main reason he redesigned these is for reliability and availability of high quality rebuild parts. The extra power they made was just icing on the cake. He isnt trying to take over the race gas turbo market. Just trying to make something nice that makes good power on pump gas for the guys that want to keep all thier same IC pipes, dp, oil and coolant lines, boost control setup, ect. And guys that have to pass visual inspections. He isnt trying to compete with the turbos that like $6 a gallon fuel.
John, I dont see why you would complain about them. They are totally brand new turbos, they are much more beafy than stockers, they have easy access to high quality rebuild parts, they make more power more reliably than stock, they can be ran in sequentual mode like stock, and they are $400 cheaper than new stockers.
They are making the same average power on pump gas as most of the singles up to a T70. Sure some of the singles such as T78 are going to keep going higher on race gas and high boost...but honestly 95% of the owners here will never run 25psi. Most of the guys that these turbo will reach are guys that are going to get Steve (or some other tuner) to tuner thier car safe as a street car up to 17 or so psi of boost and once its tuned they will never touch it again. For those guys these turbos are making the same average power as all the singles up to the T70 size range.
Never know, my experience is that dynapaks read low. It could be that Rich is making more like 440-450rwhp which is more inline with what I've seen from his injectors/pump setup with stock wires. Especially since he said his fuel pressure was normal and not dropping off.
Either way, I think it clearly shows the minimum hp people can expect with the new BNR's since there have now been 2 dyno's both in the same boost range and both in the mid 420's rwhp. Also keep in mind, these cars are being tuned on the side of caution for street cars, there is nothing magical about them....I think anyone that picks out good parts and good street tuning can achieve the same results.
Congrats Rich!!!!
Stephen
You guys remember the main reason he redesigned these is for reliability and availability of high quality rebuild parts. The extra power they made was just icing on the cake. He isnt trying to take over the race gas turbo market. Just trying to make something nice that makes good power on pump gas for the guys that want to keep all thier same IC pipes, dp, oil and coolant lines, boost control setup, ect. And guys that have to pass visual inspections. He isnt trying to compete with the turbos that like $6 a gallon fuel.
John, I dont see why you would complain about them. They are totally brand new turbos, they are much more beafy than stockers, they have easy access to high quality rebuild parts, they make more power more reliably than stock, they can be ran in sequentual mode like stock, and they are $400 cheaper than new stockers.
They are making the same average power on pump gas as most of the singles up to a T70. Sure some of the singles such as T78 are going to keep going higher on race gas and high boost...but honestly 95% of the owners here will never run 25psi. Most of the guys that these turbo will reach are guys that are going to get Steve (or some other tuner) to tuner thier car safe as a street car up to 17 or so psi of boost and once its tuned they will never touch it again. For those guys these turbos are making the same average power as all the singles up to the T70 size range.
Never know, my experience is that dynapaks read low. It could be that Rich is making more like 440-450rwhp which is more inline with what I've seen from his injectors/pump setup with stock wires. Especially since he said his fuel pressure was normal and not dropping off.
Either way, I think it clearly shows the minimum hp people can expect with the new BNR's since there have now been 2 dyno's both in the same boost range and both in the mid 420's rwhp. Also keep in mind, these cars are being tuned on the side of caution for street cars, there is nothing magical about them....I think anyone that picks out good parts and good street tuning can achieve the same results.
Congrats Rich!!!!
Stephen
07-12-05, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rynberg
That goes against everything I've ever seen regarding the Cosmo pump. The Cosmo is Denso's highest flowing fuel pump....the Supra is suspected of being the same pump.
Also, with proper CURRENT feeding it, the Cosmo pump outflows the Walbro at higher fuel line pressures.
Also, with proper CURRENT feeding it, the Cosmo pump outflows the Walbro at higher fuel line pressures.
Cosmo pump is Denso#195130-0771
Supra pump is Denso# 195130-1020
RX7(FD) pump is Denso#195130-0782
The Supra pump is highest flowing Denso pump tested by many including RC Engineering.
They are not the same pump.
The Walbro 255HP (#342, #341) will outflow the Cosmo pump at any voltage.
JD
Majority of Supra guys either choose to run 2 Walbros or 2 MK4 pumps when making over 1000+hp.
Check out the links...
http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/fuelpumptechtip.htm
07-12-05, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SPOautos
Awesome numbers Rich!!!! I know your happy. Dont know if your running out of fuel pump or if your dyno numbers are low due to it being a dynopak....doesnt really matter, those numbers are worst case senerio and they are nice.
Wow, those are good numbers !
what do you mean worst case senerio ????
I'm sure after all this time Steve did his best to get them up to that power.
If wires his pump he should be OK up to ~450-480rwh.
You guys remember the main reason he redesigned these is for reliability and availability of high quality rebuild parts.
Yes, because the older design with stock shafts suffered the same issues as other turbo builder upgrades...smoking !!! shafts could not handle the bigger compressor wheels.
The extra power they made was just icing on the cake. He isnt trying to take over the race gas turbo market. Just trying to make something nice that makes good power on pump gas for the guys that want to keep all thier same IC pipes, dp, oil and coolant lines, boost control setup, ect. And guys that have to pass visual inspections. He isnt trying to compete with the turbos that like $6 a gallon fuel.
Then why the race gas?????
John, I dont see why you would complain about them. They are totally brand new turbos, they are much more beafy than stockers, they have easy access to high quality rebuild parts, they make more power more reliably than stock, they can be ran in sequentual mode like stock, and they are $400 cheaper than new stockers.
Where do you see me complaining ??? Facts are facts.
Yes. I agree they're more reliable with a slight advantage in hp.
Bryan has put tons of time and effort to maintain the "twin-turbo" idea and I respect him for it. But it has its limits and its all in the exhaust side....manifold design and small turbines dumping against each other.We have spoken many times on this issue.
They are making the same average power on pump gas as most of the singles up to a T70. Sure some of the singles such as T78 are going to keep going higher on race gas and high boost...but honestly 95% of the owners here will never run 25psi. Most of the guys that these turbo will reach are guys that are going to get Steve (or some other tuner) to tuner thier car safe as a street car up to 17 or so psi of boost and once its tuned they will never touch it again. For those guys these turbos are making the same average power as all the singles up to the T70 size range.
Hehe...you're kidding. I could name quite a few turbo sizes from a 62-1 up to a T70 that will out power and out spool them !!!!
Never know, my experience is that dynapaks read low. It could be that Rich is making more like 440-450rwhp which is more inline with what I've seen from his injectors/pump setup with stock wires. Especially since he said his fuel pressure was normal and not dropping off.
Either way, I think it clearly shows the minimum hp people can expect with the new BNR's since there have now been 2 dyno's both in the same boost range and both in the mid 420's rwhp.
Huh !!! so far that has been the highest from either stage#3 or newer design.
425rwh+ was accomplished on stock screaming turbos !!!
Remember I matched your 125mph traps on pump gas not once but 4 times:-) when I was told it was impossible by Bryan.
Also keep in mind, these cars are being tuned on the side of caution for street cars, there is nothing magical about them....I think anyone that picks out good parts and good street tuning can achieve the same results.
Totally agree.....
Congrats Rich!!!!
Stephen
Wow, those are good numbers !
what do you mean worst case senerio ????
I'm sure after all this time Steve did his best to get them up to that power.
If wires his pump he should be OK up to ~450-480rwh.
You guys remember the main reason he redesigned these is for reliability and availability of high quality rebuild parts.
Yes, because the older design with stock shafts suffered the same issues as other turbo builder upgrades...smoking !!! shafts could not handle the bigger compressor wheels.
The extra power they made was just icing on the cake. He isnt trying to take over the race gas turbo market. Just trying to make something nice that makes good power on pump gas for the guys that want to keep all thier same IC pipes, dp, oil and coolant lines, boost control setup, ect. And guys that have to pass visual inspections. He isnt trying to compete with the turbos that like $6 a gallon fuel.
Then why the race gas?????
John, I dont see why you would complain about them. They are totally brand new turbos, they are much more beafy than stockers, they have easy access to high quality rebuild parts, they make more power more reliably than stock, they can be ran in sequentual mode like stock, and they are $400 cheaper than new stockers.
Where do you see me complaining ??? Facts are facts.
Yes. I agree they're more reliable with a slight advantage in hp.
Bryan has put tons of time and effort to maintain the "twin-turbo" idea and I respect him for it. But it has its limits and its all in the exhaust side....manifold design and small turbines dumping against each other.We have spoken many times on this issue.
They are making the same average power on pump gas as most of the singles up to a T70. Sure some of the singles such as T78 are going to keep going higher on race gas and high boost...but honestly 95% of the owners here will never run 25psi. Most of the guys that these turbo will reach are guys that are going to get Steve (or some other tuner) to tuner thier car safe as a street car up to 17 or so psi of boost and once its tuned they will never touch it again. For those guys these turbos are making the same average power as all the singles up to the T70 size range.
Hehe...you're kidding. I could name quite a few turbo sizes from a 62-1 up to a T70 that will out power and out spool them !!!!
Never know, my experience is that dynapaks read low. It could be that Rich is making more like 440-450rwhp which is more inline with what I've seen from his injectors/pump setup with stock wires. Especially since he said his fuel pressure was normal and not dropping off.
Either way, I think it clearly shows the minimum hp people can expect with the new BNR's since there have now been 2 dyno's both in the same boost range and both in the mid 420's rwhp.
Huh !!! so far that has been the highest from either stage#3 or newer design.
425rwh+ was accomplished on stock screaming turbos !!!
Remember I matched your 125mph traps on pump gas not once but 4 times:-) when I was told it was impossible by Bryan.
Also keep in mind, these cars are being tuned on the side of caution for street cars, there is nothing magical about them....I think anyone that picks out good parts and good street tuning can achieve the same results.
Totally agree.....
Congrats Rich!!!!
Stephen
07-12-05, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SPOautos
Awesome numbers Rich!!!! I know your happy. Dont know if your running out of fuel pump or if your dyno numbers are low due to it being a dynopak....doesnt really matter, those numbers are worst case senerio and they are nice.
>>Wow, those are good numbers !
what do you mean worst case senerio ????
I'm sure after all this time Steve did his best to get them up to that power.
If wires his pump he should be OK up to ~450-480rwh.
You guys remember the main reason he redesigned these is for reliability and availability of high quality rebuild parts.
>>Yes, because the older design with stock shafts suffered the same issues as other turbo builder upgrades...smoking !!! shafts could not handle the bigger compressor wheels.
The extra power they made was just icing on the cake. He isnt trying to take over the race gas turbo market. Just trying to make something nice that makes good power on pump gas for the guys that want to keep all thier same IC pipes, dp, oil and coolant lines, boost control setup, ect. And guys that have to pass visual inspections. He isnt trying to compete with the turbos that like $6 a gallon fuel.
>>Then why the race gas?????
John, I dont see why you would complain about them. They are totally brand new turbos, they are much more beafy than stockers, they have easy access to high quality rebuild parts, they make more power more reliably than stock, they can be ran in sequentual mode like stock, and they are $400 cheaper than new stockers.
>>Where do you see me complaining ??? Facts are facts.
Yes. I agree they're more reliable with a slight advantage in hp.
Bryan has put tons of time and effort to maintain the "twin-turbo" idea and I respect him for it. But it has its limits and its all in the exhaust side....manifold design and small turbines dumping against each other.We have spoken many times on this issue.
They are making the same average power on pump gas as most of the singles up to a T70. Sure some of the singles such as T78 are going to keep going higher on race gas and high boost...but honestly 95% of the owners here will never run 25psi. Most of the guys that these turbo will reach are guys that are going to get Steve (or some other tuner) to tuner thier car safe as a street car up to 17 or so psi of boost and once its tuned they will never touch it again. For those guys these turbos are making the same average power as all the singles up to the T70 size range.
>>Hehe...you're kidding. I could name quite a few turbo sizes from a 62-1 up to a T70 that will out power and out spool them !!!!
Never know, my experience is that dynapaks read low. It could be that Rich is making more like 440-450rwhp which is more inline with what I've seen from his injectors/pump setup with stock wires. Especially since he said his fuel pressure was normal and not dropping off.
Either way, I think it clearly shows the minimum hp people can expect with the new BNR's since there have now been 2 dyno's both in the same boost range and both in the mid 420's rwhp.
>>Huh !!! so far that has been the highest from either stage#3 or newer design.
425rwh+ was accomplished on stock screaming turbos !!!
Remember I matched your 125mph traps on pump gas not once but 4 times:-) when I was told it was impossible by Bryan.
Also keep in mind, these cars are being tuned on the side of caution for street cars, there is nothing magical about them....I think anyone that picks out good parts and good street tuning can achieve the same results.
>>Totally agree.....
Congrats Rich!!!!
Stephen
>>Wow, those are good numbers !
what do you mean worst case senerio ????
I'm sure after all this time Steve did his best to get them up to that power.
If wires his pump he should be OK up to ~450-480rwh.
You guys remember the main reason he redesigned these is for reliability and availability of high quality rebuild parts.
>>Yes, because the older design with stock shafts suffered the same issues as other turbo builder upgrades...smoking !!! shafts could not handle the bigger compressor wheels.
The extra power they made was just icing on the cake. He isnt trying to take over the race gas turbo market. Just trying to make something nice that makes good power on pump gas for the guys that want to keep all thier same IC pipes, dp, oil and coolant lines, boost control setup, ect. And guys that have to pass visual inspections. He isnt trying to compete with the turbos that like $6 a gallon fuel.
>>Then why the race gas?????
John, I dont see why you would complain about them. They are totally brand new turbos, they are much more beafy than stockers, they have easy access to high quality rebuild parts, they make more power more reliably than stock, they can be ran in sequentual mode like stock, and they are $400 cheaper than new stockers.
>>Where do you see me complaining ??? Facts are facts.
Yes. I agree they're more reliable with a slight advantage in hp.
Bryan has put tons of time and effort to maintain the "twin-turbo" idea and I respect him for it. But it has its limits and its all in the exhaust side....manifold design and small turbines dumping against each other.We have spoken many times on this issue.
They are making the same average power on pump gas as most of the singles up to a T70. Sure some of the singles such as T78 are going to keep going higher on race gas and high boost...but honestly 95% of the owners here will never run 25psi. Most of the guys that these turbo will reach are guys that are going to get Steve (or some other tuner) to tuner thier car safe as a street car up to 17 or so psi of boost and once its tuned they will never touch it again. For those guys these turbos are making the same average power as all the singles up to the T70 size range.
>>Hehe...you're kidding. I could name quite a few turbo sizes from a 62-1 up to a T70 that will out power and out spool them !!!!
Never know, my experience is that dynapaks read low. It could be that Rich is making more like 440-450rwhp which is more inline with what I've seen from his injectors/pump setup with stock wires. Especially since he said his fuel pressure was normal and not dropping off.
Either way, I think it clearly shows the minimum hp people can expect with the new BNR's since there have now been 2 dyno's both in the same boost range and both in the mid 420's rwhp.
>>Huh !!! so far that has been the highest from either stage#3 or newer design.
425rwh+ was accomplished on stock screaming turbos !!!
Remember I matched your 125mph traps on pump gas not once but 4 times:-) when I was told it was impossible by Bryan.
Also keep in mind, these cars are being tuned on the side of caution for street cars, there is nothing magical about them....I think anyone that picks out good parts and good street tuning can achieve the same results.
>>Totally agree.....
Congrats Rich!!!!
Stephen
07-12-05, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Boostn7
Sorry, you're wrong.....
Cosmo pump is Denso#195130-0771
Supra pump is Denso# 195130-1020
RX7(FD) pump is Denso#195130-0782
The Supra pump is highest flowing Denso pump tested by many including RC Engineering.
They are not the same pump.
The Walbro 255HP (#342, #341) will outflow the Cosmo pump at any voltage.
Cosmo pump is Denso#195130-0771
Supra pump is Denso# 195130-1020
RX7(FD) pump is Denso#195130-0782
The Supra pump is highest flowing Denso pump tested by many including RC Engineering.
They are not the same pump.
The Walbro 255HP (#342, #341) will outflow the Cosmo pump at any voltage.
I have seen tests that showed the Denso pump outflowing the Walbro when supplied with enough current....I'm trying to find them right now without success.
07-13-05, 11:29 AM
#63
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
Thanks Bob.....I miss hanging out with the old crew out in DFW .
When are you planning on posting a pics thread of your blue beauty?
.When are you planning on posting a pics thread of your blue beauty?
soon...which mean a couple of months
off tomorrow to get the windows tinted...then off to get the car tuned...then final paint...
07-14-05, 01:29 PM
#64
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Ehhh, John all your replys were inside the quote so I cant get them to show back up. I'm just going to say a few things....
By worst case senerio numbers I didnt mean they werent trying to get all they could at that boost level or that steve didnt tune it good. I just meant they tuned it conservative and very safe and that it was on a dyno that from what I've seen typically reads a little low. I just meant his hp numbers should be real conservative and not over inflated.
My understanding is they were running race gas on the dyno as a percaution, but that it wasnt tuned like you would normally tune for race gas if you were trying to extract extra power by using race gas. It was still very rich and conservative timing and the race gas was there for safty precaution as TONS of people do.
I'm sorry, maybe you post just rubbed me the wrong way, to me it came off as you were trying to talk down about them. I think they are great turbos and I'm just glad someone out there is still trying to be innovative with our cars.
I agree the manifold/turbine housings are restrictive, however Bryan significatly modifies them with these new stage 3's in addition to using a different turbine wheel which as far as I know I've never heard of anyone else running a different turbine wheel. As you know a different turbine wheel significatly changes the backpressure dynamics of a turbo. If these changes will allow for more power than Rich is making remains to be seen.
I have overlayed a dyno sheet of a 62-1 over these and its almost identicle on cars that were VERY similar with the exception of the turbo. Look around on the site that shows all the dyno graphs at Steve Kan's dyno with his T66 setup he had back in the day....again very similar. I've done many comparisons with turbos smaller than a T70 and they typically have very similar average rwhp in the shift range. I'm not saying non of them make more peak but a lot of them only make that peak power for a few hundred rpms. If you look at the average these twins are very similar to a lot of the singles....given standard porting, ect with no half/full bridges blah blah blah.
I've never seen any dyno sheets of stock twins making 425+rwhp. The HIGHEST I ever saw was your car which made 402rw (or at least thats all I know of). If you know of more post it up. My car didnt make 425rw with the old twins....It made 412. I really think is says something when at least the same amount or more people have been able to come up with dyno sheets for 400+ using BNR's in the past 2 years than there was people doing it with stockers for 13years. Like look at my 125mph for instance...it was soooo easy man. There was absolutly nothing odd about my car and the tuning was super conservative and on pump gas. I had 3/4 tank of fuel, stereo system, spare tire, ect ect all in the car. I could have dropped 150lbs VERY easy without changing the street car status at all. I went to the track, made one pass, picked up my slip and left. I'm not a die hard drag racer out there every weekend or anything. It was all just sooooo easy to accomplish 125 trap speeds/
Anyway, I'm not really wanting to split hairs over tiny differences, to be honest I think the stock twins are nice turbos as well...the problem is they wont last driven with these boost levels every day. I also think there is more power in the new BNR's but no one has turned the boost up higher yet to see.
John, you have any dyno sheets for your new setup with the T70? I thought about running a T70 at one time but ended up going with a GT42. I'd like to see some dyno sheets of the T70 if you have some.
Time will tell about the new stage 3's max hp limits
Stephen
By worst case senerio numbers I didnt mean they werent trying to get all they could at that boost level or that steve didnt tune it good. I just meant they tuned it conservative and very safe and that it was on a dyno that from what I've seen typically reads a little low. I just meant his hp numbers should be real conservative and not over inflated.
My understanding is they were running race gas on the dyno as a percaution, but that it wasnt tuned like you would normally tune for race gas if you were trying to extract extra power by using race gas. It was still very rich and conservative timing and the race gas was there for safty precaution as TONS of people do.
I'm sorry, maybe you post just rubbed me the wrong way, to me it came off as you were trying to talk down about them. I think they are great turbos and I'm just glad someone out there is still trying to be innovative with our cars.
I agree the manifold/turbine housings are restrictive, however Bryan significatly modifies them with these new stage 3's in addition to using a different turbine wheel which as far as I know I've never heard of anyone else running a different turbine wheel. As you know a different turbine wheel significatly changes the backpressure dynamics of a turbo. If these changes will allow for more power than Rich is making remains to be seen.
I have overlayed a dyno sheet of a 62-1 over these and its almost identicle on cars that were VERY similar with the exception of the turbo. Look around on the site that shows all the dyno graphs at Steve Kan's dyno with his T66 setup he had back in the day....again very similar. I've done many comparisons with turbos smaller than a T70 and they typically have very similar average rwhp in the shift range. I'm not saying non of them make more peak but a lot of them only make that peak power for a few hundred rpms. If you look at the average these twins are very similar to a lot of the singles....given standard porting, ect with no half/full bridges blah blah blah.
I've never seen any dyno sheets of stock twins making 425+rwhp. The HIGHEST I ever saw was your car which made 402rw (or at least thats all I know of). If you know of more post it up. My car didnt make 425rw with the old twins....It made 412. I really think is says something when at least the same amount or more people have been able to come up with dyno sheets for 400+ using BNR's in the past 2 years than there was people doing it with stockers for 13years. Like look at my 125mph for instance...it was soooo easy man. There was absolutly nothing odd about my car and the tuning was super conservative and on pump gas. I had 3/4 tank of fuel, stereo system, spare tire, ect ect all in the car. I could have dropped 150lbs VERY easy without changing the street car status at all. I went to the track, made one pass, picked up my slip and left. I'm not a die hard drag racer out there every weekend or anything. It was all just sooooo easy to accomplish 125 trap speeds/
Anyway, I'm not really wanting to split hairs over tiny differences, to be honest I think the stock twins are nice turbos as well...the problem is they wont last driven with these boost levels every day. I also think there is more power in the new BNR's but no one has turned the boost up higher yet to see.
John, you have any dyno sheets for your new setup with the T70? I thought about running a T70 at one time but ended up going with a GT42. I'd like to see some dyno sheets of the T70 if you have some.
Time will tell about the new stage 3's max hp limits
Stephen
Last edited by SPOautos; 07-14-05 at 01:41 PM.
07-14-05, 09:24 PM
#65
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Originally Posted by SPOautos
My understanding is they were running race gas on the dyno as a percaution, but that it wasnt tuned like you would normally tune for race gas if you were trying to extract extra power by using race gas. It was still very rich and conservative timing and the race gas was there for safty precaution as TONS of people do.
Stephen
Stephen
Also, I'd like to point out that these turbos are head and shoulders above the stockers. If you look at a stock cartridge next to one out of the BNR 3s, the difference is plain to the naked eye. They make gobs more power than the stockers......I think we all agree that a set of twins that has dyno results similar to a Greddy T-78 makes more than a 'slight' amount of power above the stockers.
Rich
07-15-05, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SPOautos
My understanding is they were running race gas on the dyno as a percaution, but that it wasnt tuned like you would normally tune for race gas if you were trying to extract extra power by using race gas. It was still very rich and conservative timing and the race gas was there for safty precaution as TONS of people do.
I'm sorry, maybe you post just rubbed me the wrong way, to me it came off as you were trying to talk down about them. I think they are great turbos and I'm just glad someone out there is still trying to be innovative with our cars.
I agree the manifold/turbine housings are restrictive, however Bryan significatly modifies them with these new stage 3's in addition to using a different turbine wheel which as far as I know I've never heard of anyone else running a different turbine wheel. As you know a different turbine wheel significatly changes the backpressure dynamics of a turbo. If these changes will allow for more power than Rich is making remains to be seen.
I have overlayed a dyno sheet of a 62-1 over these and its almost identicle on cars that were VERY similar with the exception of the turbo. Look around on the site that shows all the dyno graphs at Steve Kan's dyno with his T66 setup he had back in the day....again very similar. I've done many comparisons with turbos smaller than a T70 and they typically have very similar average rwhp in the shift range. I'm not saying non of them make more peak but a lot of them only make that peak power for a few hundred rpms. If you look at the average these twins are very similar to a lot of the singles....given standard porting, ect with no half/full bridges blah blah blah.
I've never seen any dyno sheets of stock twins making 425+rwhp. The HIGHEST I ever saw was your car which made 402rw (or at least thats all I know of). If you know of more post it up. My car didnt make 425rw with the old twins....It made 412. I really think is says something when at least the same amount or more people have been able to come up with dyno sheets for 400+ using BNR's in the past 2 years than there was people doing it with stockers for 13years. Like look at my 125mph for instance...it was soooo easy man. There was absolutly nothing odd about my car and the tuning was super conservative and on pump gas. I had 3/4 tank of fuel, stereo system, spare tire, ect ect all in the car. I could have dropped 150lbs VERY easy without changing the street car status at all. I went to the track, made one pass, picked up my slip and left. I'm not a die hard drag racer out there every weekend or anything. It was all just sooooo easy to accomplish 125 trap speeds/
Anyway, I'm not really wanting to split hairs over tiny differences, to be honest I think the stock twins are nice turbos as well...the problem is they wont last driven with these boost levels every day. I also think there is more power in the new BNR's but no one has turned the boost up higher yet to see.
John, you have any dyno sheets for your new setup with the T70? I thought about running a T70 at one time but ended up going with a GT42. I'd like to see some dyno sheets of the T70 if you have some.
Time will tell about the new stage 3's max hp limits
Stephen
I'm sorry, maybe you post just rubbed me the wrong way, to me it came off as you were trying to talk down about them. I think they are great turbos and I'm just glad someone out there is still trying to be innovative with our cars.
I agree the manifold/turbine housings are restrictive, however Bryan significatly modifies them with these new stage 3's in addition to using a different turbine wheel which as far as I know I've never heard of anyone else running a different turbine wheel. As you know a different turbine wheel significatly changes the backpressure dynamics of a turbo. If these changes will allow for more power than Rich is making remains to be seen.
I have overlayed a dyno sheet of a 62-1 over these and its almost identicle on cars that were VERY similar with the exception of the turbo. Look around on the site that shows all the dyno graphs at Steve Kan's dyno with his T66 setup he had back in the day....again very similar. I've done many comparisons with turbos smaller than a T70 and they typically have very similar average rwhp in the shift range. I'm not saying non of them make more peak but a lot of them only make that peak power for a few hundred rpms. If you look at the average these twins are very similar to a lot of the singles....given standard porting, ect with no half/full bridges blah blah blah.
I've never seen any dyno sheets of stock twins making 425+rwhp. The HIGHEST I ever saw was your car which made 402rw (or at least thats all I know of). If you know of more post it up. My car didnt make 425rw with the old twins....It made 412. I really think is says something when at least the same amount or more people have been able to come up with dyno sheets for 400+ using BNR's in the past 2 years than there was people doing it with stockers for 13years. Like look at my 125mph for instance...it was soooo easy man. There was absolutly nothing odd about my car and the tuning was super conservative and on pump gas. I had 3/4 tank of fuel, stereo system, spare tire, ect ect all in the car. I could have dropped 150lbs VERY easy without changing the street car status at all. I went to the track, made one pass, picked up my slip and left. I'm not a die hard drag racer out there every weekend or anything. It was all just sooooo easy to accomplish 125 trap speeds/
Anyway, I'm not really wanting to split hairs over tiny differences, to be honest I think the stock twins are nice turbos as well...the problem is they wont last driven with these boost levels every day. I also think there is more power in the new BNR's but no one has turned the boost up higher yet to see.
John, you have any dyno sheets for your new setup with the T70? I thought about running a T70 at one time but ended up going with a GT42. I'd like to see some dyno sheets of the T70 if you have some.
Time will tell about the new stage 3's max hp limits
Stephen
I know the BNRs are complete new CHRA's making them alot more reliable then stockers with no doubt.
You're right, 402rwh is the highest dynoed but was also a stock port motor.
My numerous 125mph traps in a full weight car (2930lbs w/ myself) will easily yield 425+ rwh on those stock turbos and ported motor.
These BNRs are in a league of their own.....given the choice between them and a Greddy T78 (or equal) most will choose the single due to simplicity and overall potential.
For those wanting the "twin turbo" idea Bryan has done a hell of job by replacing both CHRA's and make them fit in the same spot with added reliabilty for higher boost.
If there's more hp to made I'm sure Rich will not disappoint us:-)
Good Luck
JD
07-15-05, 04:42 PM
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hey John,
Not trying to add more flames to the fire. If you compare the spool up between Rich's dyno chart vs. Agentspeed (bnr stage 3 on dynojet that I tuned), you'll see that there's a good 20-30rwhp difference in them. I think the lag was caused by the load point using the dynapack vs. dynojet. They entered the weight of the vehicle to 2800lbs vs. the 8000lbs roller on the dynojet. We also did all pulls in 3rd gear which added some loss when compared to 4th gear pull (probably not by much). I honestly think that the actual # should be closer to 450 on dynojet at the boost level he was running. Either way, we ran out of fuel in his car so we couldn't truely unleashed the potential of the turbos.
Maybe next time when I'm up in jersey again and we'll redo it again. BTW, if you get a chance, go take a joy ride with Rich and see what you think about them. I'm sure that you'll not be disappointed.
Not trying to add more flames to the fire. If you compare the spool up between Rich's dyno chart vs. Agentspeed (bnr stage 3 on dynojet that I tuned), you'll see that there's a good 20-30rwhp difference in them. I think the lag was caused by the load point using the dynapack vs. dynojet. They entered the weight of the vehicle to 2800lbs vs. the 8000lbs roller on the dynojet. We also did all pulls in 3rd gear which added some loss when compared to 4th gear pull (probably not by much). I honestly think that the actual # should be closer to 450 on dynojet at the boost level he was running. Either way, we ran out of fuel in his car so we couldn't truely unleashed the potential of the turbos.
Maybe next time when I'm up in jersey again and we'll redo it again. BTW, if you get a chance, go take a joy ride with Rich and see what you think about them. I'm sure that you'll not be disappointed.
Originally Posted by Boostn7
Hey Steph.....most smaller turbos such as the 62-1, T63 ,T64 and so far will see full boost (18psi) by 4.5krpm or earlier and will continue to make power beyond 425 w/ ease.
I know the BNRs are complete new CHRA's making them alot more reliable then stockers with no doubt.
You're right, 402rwh is the highest dynoed but was also a stock port motor.
My numerous 125mph traps in a full weight car (2930lbs w/ myself) will easily yield 425+ rwh on those stock turbos and ported motor.
These BNRs are in a league of their own.....given the choice between them and a Greddy T78 (or equal) most will choose the single due to simplicity and overall potential.
For those wanting the "twin turbo" idea Bryan has done a hell of job by replacing both CHRA's and make them fit in the same spot with added reliabilty for higher boost.
If there's more hp to made I'm sure Rich will not disappoint us:-)
Good Luck
JD
I know the BNRs are complete new CHRA's making them alot more reliable then stockers with no doubt.
You're right, 402rwh is the highest dynoed but was also a stock port motor.
My numerous 125mph traps in a full weight car (2930lbs w/ myself) will easily yield 425+ rwh on those stock turbos and ported motor.
These BNRs are in a league of their own.....given the choice between them and a Greddy T78 (or equal) most will choose the single due to simplicity and overall potential.
For those wanting the "twin turbo" idea Bryan has done a hell of job by replacing both CHRA's and make them fit in the same spot with added reliabilty for higher boost.
If there's more hp to made I'm sure Rich will not disappoint us:-)
Good Luck
JD
07-15-05, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by pluto
hey John,
Not trying to add more flames to the fire. If you compare the spool up between Rich's dyno chart vs. Agentspeed (bnr stage 3 on dynojet that I tuned), you'll see that there's a good 20-30rwhp difference in them. I think the lag was caused by the load point using the dynapack vs. dynojet. They entered the weight of the vehicle to 2800lbs vs. the 8000lbs roller on the dynojet. We also did all pulls in 3rd gear which added some loss when compared to 4th gear pull (probably not by much). I honestly think that the actual # should be closer to 450 on dynojet at the boost level he was running. Either way, we ran out of fuel in his car so we couldn't truely unleashed the potential of the turbos.
Maybe next time when I'm up in jersey again and we'll redo it again. BTW, if you get a chance, go take a joy ride with Rich and see what you think about them. I'm sure that you'll not be disappointed.
Not trying to add more flames to the fire. If you compare the spool up between Rich's dyno chart vs. Agentspeed (bnr stage 3 on dynojet that I tuned), you'll see that there's a good 20-30rwhp difference in them. I think the lag was caused by the load point using the dynapack vs. dynojet. They entered the weight of the vehicle to 2800lbs vs. the 8000lbs roller on the dynojet. We also did all pulls in 3rd gear which added some loss when compared to 4th gear pull (probably not by much). I honestly think that the actual # should be closer to 450 on dynojet at the boost level he was running. Either way, we ran out of fuel in his car so we couldn't truely unleashed the potential of the turbos.
Maybe next time when I'm up in jersey again and we'll redo it again. BTW, if you get a chance, go take a joy ride with Rich and see what you think about them. I'm sure that you'll not be disappointed.
.I'll take you up on your offer of the dynojet.....would love to make more than the 420 if the car has the potential. I plan on hitting a dynojet with some race gas within the next few weeks to make some pulls and see where she is at. I will tell you that once I got off of the dynapack and was ripping around the streets outside Car Version 2 at two a.m., the car felt like a damn rocketship.....based on my past experiences riding in different high hp FDs, it certainly felt like my car was accelerating in excess of 125 mph trap speeds. Only one way to tell, but I really don't feel like springing for chromoly axles right now.....might just roll into it from the tree and then see what happens---maybe like a 12.5 at 130? hehe
Rich
07-15-05, 09:04 PM
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Weeelll...take said rocketship to track (it IS friday....gotta be a test & tune somewhere round dem parts this weekend) and quit saying maybe...
Also, that must be some damn butt dyno you're packin to measure 5 mph in the trap...shiiat, mine's only calibrated for +/- 6...dependant if you're in town or not (in that little pink number). I'm going to go with 127.01, Bob.
I mean, you know you're dying to have a timeslip with a kickass trap speed to laminate and hang up underhood next to your dyno sheet Hector (ya, I heard about that )
let's see what that rat bastard can do these days......
Also, that must be some damn butt dyno you're packin to measure 5 mph in the trap...shiiat, mine's only calibrated for +/- 6...dependant if you're in town or not (in that little pink number). I'm going to go with 127.01, Bob.
I mean, you know you're dying to have a timeslip with a kickass trap speed to laminate and hang up underhood next to your dyno sheet Hector (ya, I heard about that
)let's see what that rat bastard can do these days......
07-15-05, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by suganuma
Weeelll...take said rocketship to track (it IS friday....gotta be a test & tune somewhere round dem parts this weekend) and quit saying maybe...
Also, that must be some damn butt dyno you're packin to measure 5 mph in the trap...shiiat, mine's only calibrated for +/- 6...dependant if you're in town or not (in that little pink number). I'm going to go with 127.01, Bob.
I mean, you know you're dying to have a timeslip with a kickass trap speed to laminate and hang up underhood next to your dyno sheet Hector (ya, I heard about that )
let's see what that rat bastard can do these days......
Also, that must be some damn butt dyno you're packin to measure 5 mph in the trap...shiiat, mine's only calibrated for +/- 6...dependant if you're in town or not (in that little pink number). I'm going to go with 127.01, Bob.
I mean, you know you're dying to have a timeslip with a kickass trap speed to laminate and hang up underhood next to your dyno sheet Hector (ya, I heard about that
)let's see what that rat bastard can do these days......
At this point I want the water injection installed before I beat the hell out of the car at the track. Plus, a weekend or two with no 'car stuff' planned seems kind of appealing to me right now
.
07-15-05, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
You really should lay off the sauce Nic, lol.
At this point I want the water injection installed before I beat the hell out of the car at the track. Plus, a weekend or two with no 'car stuff' planned seems kind of appealing to me right now.
At this point I want the water injection installed before I beat the hell out of the car at the track. Plus, a weekend or two with no 'car stuff' planned seems kind of appealing to me right now
.I think you have become too careful in your old age. What happened to the Rich of old?....driving beyond his abilities on strange unfamiliar dfw turnoffs, playing grass vacuum with the car at MSR, offering rides to young underage women, speeding over rough barren roads outside the strip, saving ryan's privates, BAH! I thought you were planning on just rolling away from the tree?...why are you now "beat(ing) the hell out of the car"?
I'm sure you'll let everyone now as soon as you DO get to the track.....whenever that is....
07-16-05, 12:53 AM
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drag strip + FD = excellent way to exceed the credit limit on your plastic, already carrying a hefty balance
i.e. great way to break stuff....these cars were never intended for the rigors of the drag strip (hats off to Ernie T though)....buy a Supra or, better yet, a '69 big block Camaro....bragging rights ain't worth it
i.e. great way to break stuff....these cars were never intended for the rigors of the drag strip (hats off to Ernie T though)....buy a Supra or, better yet, a '69 big block Camaro....bragging rights ain't worth it
07-16-05, 08:55 AM
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Congrats Rich
Looking at your chart I'm getting the impression my turbos might be OK as during the (brief) spell when it was running 1.2bar I was hitting full boost at 5.2k as well, might be I've just cracked the wastegate...will find out for sure when they are taken apart in the not too distant future.
Good luck when you take it on track, my gearbox lasted half of my first run
14.1@108 with no third gear 
Didn't think to get my slip from the run when the engine let go (mind was elsewhere), suspect something stupid like 14.3@112 with the 50 shot.
Looking at your chart I'm getting the impression my turbos might be OK as during the (brief) spell when it was running 1.2bar I was hitting full boost at 5.2k as well, might be I've just cracked the wastegate...will find out for sure when they are taken apart in the not too distant future.
Good luck when you take it on track, my gearbox lasted half of my first run
14.1@108 with no third gear Didn't think to get my slip from the run when the engine let go (mind was elsewhere), suspect something stupid like 14.3@112 with the 50 shot.
07-16-05, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pluto
hey John,
Not trying to add more flames to the fire. If you compare the spool up between Rich's dyno chart vs. Agentspeed (bnr stage 3 on dynojet that I tuned), you'll see that there's a good 20-30rwhp difference in them. I think the lag was caused by the load point using the dynapack vs. dynojet. They entered the weight of the vehicle to 2800lbs vs. the 8000lbs roller on the dynojet. We also did all pulls in 3rd gear which added some loss when compared to 4th gear pull (probably not by much). I honestly think that the actual # should be closer to 450 on dynojet at the boost level he was running. Either way, we ran out of fuel in his car so we couldn't truely unleashed the potential of the turbos.
Maybe next time when I'm up in jersey again and we'll redo it again. BTW, if you get a chance, go take a joy ride with Rich and see what you think about them. I'm sure that you'll not be disappointed.
Not trying to add more flames to the fire. If you compare the spool up between Rich's dyno chart vs. Agentspeed (bnr stage 3 on dynojet that I tuned), you'll see that there's a good 20-30rwhp difference in them. I think the lag was caused by the load point using the dynapack vs. dynojet. They entered the weight of the vehicle to 2800lbs vs. the 8000lbs roller on the dynojet. We also did all pulls in 3rd gear which added some loss when compared to 4th gear pull (probably not by much). I honestly think that the actual # should be closer to 450 on dynojet at the boost level he was running. Either way, we ran out of fuel in his car so we couldn't truely unleashed the potential of the turbos.
Maybe next time when I'm up in jersey again and we'll redo it again. BTW, if you get a chance, go take a joy ride with Rich and see what you think about them. I'm sure that you'll not be disappointed.
No fire in my part :-)
Jumping on a dyno jet will clear things up I guess....
Or we could do a side by side highway pull and see if the 130mph traps are there:-) which it would need closer to ~500rwh :-)
JD