rxtuner79

iTrader: (1)

I have an '88 convertible that I'll be using for autox and spirited back road driving. I use it as much as possible but can only put 5k miles a year on it because it's emissions exempt so it may be just a weekend car this year. I've read that unless you're doing serious track days then coilovers aren't worth it, shocks and springs are the way to go. I've decided on Bilstein HD shocks and the Ground Control/Eibach spring kit with the Mazda competition front strut mounts. The problem I have is that I'm now second guessing myself because I'm getting into the coilover price range and I'm wondering if there is anything that would be as high quality or better. As of now a cage and HPDE is not in this car's future but I still want to make sure I'm getting the best product for my money and use. The rest of the car is a street ported S5 block with RB collected exhaust, Fidanza 8 lb. flywheel and Bridgestone RE01R tires that will probably be replaced with RE11A's this year.

So my question is: is there a good quality coilover setup in that price range ($1,100) that I should consider or is it best to stick with the Bilstein/GC combo for my use? Looking for any opinions, stories, experience, etc. Thanks!

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

basically you might as well do the GC coil over setup, and the get the camber plates too. the FC needs more negative camber in the front.

suspension is a bit funny, as a spring is a spring, and the hardware is just hard ware, the really important part is the shock/damper.

a couple of years ago we had 3 FC's, one was low mileage and stock, the second had camber plates, 300/200 springs and AGX's and the third was camber plates with Koni's and 400/300 springs. the car with the Koni's handled the best, as your expect, but it also rode better. in fact the ride was almost better than stock.

this last weekend we went from koni to ohlins on the current race car (which is a miata), and the difference was astounding. not only did it handle better, but it could soak up all kinds of bumps, AND it rode nicely.

so cliff notes: the FC needs more negative camber in the front, springs that are in the 300-450lb/in area in the front, and about 250-300 in the rear, and then the rest of your money should go into the shocks. bilstein is a good choice.

rxtuner79

iTrader: (1)

Is the GC coilover setup still worth getting if I hold off on the camber plates for now? My driving experience is limited to a few autox events and tearing up back roads so I don't know if all that adjustment is necessary at my beginner skill level. Also that would up the price and make me just want to save for the full GC kit with the Koni shocks.

For spring rates, should I let GC pick something in that range or should I ask them for a specific number? I also have polyurethane bushings up front and on the rear sway bar as well as DTSS eliminators, I forgot to mention that in the first post.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

more front camber is almost the first thing you wanna do on the track. second most important is the shock/damper. spring rate is about 3rd, the nice thing about the FC is that the spring rate it wants at the track is soft enough that its streetable. if its mostly a street car, 350F/250R works great, the track cars start around 400-450F and are about 250-300R.

if you're really a beginner, beginner, there is no problem with just starting with a stock car. play with the alignment you can, and get seat time. the driver is one of the most important go fast parts

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

I have fortune 510s on my car, and I really like them. I am at 675/500 (12k/9k) springs, but run DOT R tires and it is basically just a track car.

A set of Fortunes 500s are in your price range, and they will get you the springs you want and valve them for the springs.

With the NA rotary I ran 8k/6k springs and the car was nice for track/autox and rode nicely on the street.

rxtuner79

iTrader: (1)

The reason I'm looking at shocks now is because my rears are leaking and the car is due for inspection in February. And I can't do the shocks with out springs, shouldn't do those without mounts and on and on, I know I don't have to tell you guys how fast the list grows and the bank account depletes, especially on a 137k mile car. For that reason, shocks are more important for my situation.

I am beginner, beginner. I autox'ed my '91 MR2 NA once in '06 I think, it was my first car. Got one autox in with my S5 NA a year or two later and now one with my S4 convertible. I plan on doing as much autox as possible this year to work on the loose nut behind the wheel but those past events and just hard back road driving for 9 years about sums up my experience.

Just lowering the car (not ghetto low) should help add some negative camber, right? I'm sure it's not enough for hard track use but it's gotta be better than nothing. I was looking at Bilstein's because from what I understand it's very hard and expensive to beat their quality and consistency and I've read so many negative things on coilovers in this price range. How would the Fortune 500's compare to Bilstein as far as quality goes? And correct me if I'm wrong but I would still need to replace the strut mounts if I went with coilovers, right?

ibeljin

iTrader: (1)

Lowering the car will add camber in the rear and not the front where the car really needs it. Most coil overs come with their own strut mounts/camber plates.

the way the shock itself is valved and how it dampens the movement of the spring plays a huge role in the way it rides and feels, its not all about spring rates

rxtuner79

iTrader: (1)

I know that shocks are where I don't want to skimp and that's why I decided on Bilstein. I looked into the Fortune 500's and I like that they're dyno'ed, matched and made in America. I'm reading that some people are happy with them and some say they're just like the other entry-level setups: avoid them and buy quality shocks and springs until you need and can afford something better.

Right now I'm leaning more towards buying the shocks, mounts and springs first because I need the shocks for inspection, then buying the camber plates separately later on when I can afford them. I feel like that's really my only option and it comes with peace of mind that I'm running tried and true components from trusted brands. Do I still need shock mounts if I buy camber plates from GC or do they also act as mounts?

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

camber plates act as mounts, so you will want to have a good look at your original mounts, as they are probably fine anyways

rxtuner79

iTrader: (1)

I've read that it's almost a necessity to replace mounts when doing suspension which is why I was looking into them. Would it be wise to skip the mounts for now? I just hate taking things apart more than once, I'm one of those "replace everything I can while I'm in there" guys.

Ground Control said the strut shaft would have to be machined down to 5/8" and any local machine shop shouldn't charge much for it but I'm really not looking to modify anything like that. I'm waiting to hear back from AWR to see if their camber plates would require the same. If it's a hassle then I may just do the Mazdaspeed mounts if mine are in poor condition. What's the best way to check their condition? Is it something I can just eyeball and tell if it's badly worn?

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

You will want the camber plates.

This is why when I first changed the suspension on my car I just went with the entry level coilovers.. BC at the time. By the time I pieced together all of the parts - Bilsteins, coilover kit, camber plates, it was more than coilovers, and the damping was just borderline for track use, which meant revalving the shocks.

I used to recommend people go with BC or Stance coilovers to get started... they are decent and ride nicely if set up correctly.

Honestly the Fortune 500s are probably the best for the money. Yes it is a Chinese coilover, but the important parts are designed and assembled here. If you go with 8k/6k springs you will be pretty happy with the ride I'm sure, but you could even step it down to 7k/5k.

An added benefit of the Fortune, BC and Stance coilovers is that they allow you to run large tires up front, up to 255s with the right camber settings and wheels.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

what we have learned is that the shock has the bigger impact on ride quality than the spring does.

there are two valves in a shock, there is a valve for low piston speed, and a valve for high piston speed. put simply, the low piston speed valve is for handling and the high piston speed valve is for ride.

when you get the valving right the results are astounding, you actually can have handling, and a good ride at the same time.

the new race car just got a set of ohlins, and its amazing. it handles great, the chassis soaks up all kinds of bumps without getting out of shape, and the ride is good too.

by contrast a spring is just a spring.

there are a few detail bits with a spring, for instance when you get to really stiff springs you need a tight tolerance on the rate as 5% can be the next rate down, and you can wind the spring to get more travel before it gets to coil bind

here is some additional reading Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - ATW Home Page

rxtuner79

iTrader: (1)

I skimmed through the Autocross to Win article a few years ago and have revisited it a few times since. I think it was that article that got me set on running Koni (which aren't available anymore) or Bilstein shocks and wanting to avoid the cheaper alternatives. I haven't had much time recently to go back to it but I'll start trying to read it again.

I bought the Bilstein struts and shocks today from Tire Rack so it's a little late to go the coilover route, they'll be here Tuesday. At this point I might just do the shocks with GC coilovers and see how that works. I think I'll get a few autox events in and see if I'm even a good enough driver to benefit from camber plates.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

That will be a great start.

You can always benefit from camber plates. If anything you'll get the money back through more even tire wear over the long term.

These are a cheaper alternative to GC camber plates..but you would also need their upper hat setup along with the plates. Their upper hat setup will work with any camber plate for the car, so you could save some money that way. I believe the GC plates have the Torrington bearing built in so a standard hat can be used.

https://technotoytuning.com/mazda/fc

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

Yep, that's a great setup. As much as I like the Koni especially when using standard springs instead of coilovers, I suspect the Bilstein might offer a little better valving and be a bit more comfy on the road.
GC makes good stuff. This will be a much better setup than any of the "cheap" "coilovers" that are popular these days. Plus the customer service from Bilstein or Koni is excellent should you ever need it.

Camber plates are nice but I suspect you don't need them for spirited street driving. I never used them on the various FCs I had back in the day. On the other hand, if budget allows, now is the time to install them.

rxtuner79

iTrader: (1)

Ordered the GC coilovers tonight, explained my use and they chose 440lb front and 300lb rear springs.

I know the camber plates would help tires wear evenly but that's only if it's always near the limit, right? Driving around on the street would wear them fast if I'm always running negative camber. The Techno Toy camber plates are only $50 more than the Mazdaspeed strut mounts though so I'm glad you posted them, that wouldn't break the bank.

The only decision I need to make now is if I should change out the stock strut mounts. I'm sure they're worn by this point but how much would it actually affect handling if they're not in good shape? And for $50 more the Techno Toys seem like the better buy over the MSP as long as they're good quality.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

Well the plates will allow you to run a moderate amount of negative camber for spirited driving and still wear evenly for highway driving.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

depending on how you drive, compared to stock, a little negative camber might actually improve tire wear on the street.

stock alignment is around 0, so when you turn the car leans, and the tire leans, and you just scrub the outside of the tire off. this is also why you get terminal understeer.

adding a little negative camber puts the tires more flatly on the road in a turn. this can help tire wear, and it increases front grip.

the stickier the tire, the more lateral G you have, the more the car leans and the more negative camber you need. this is why a track car can run like -4 cambers, and get even tire wear.

for the street -1 to -1.5 front camber is probably the happy spot, for the track just max it out

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

^ truth.

rxtuner79

iTrader: (1)

The RE01R's stick pretty well and I'm sure the RE11A's that I'll be getting later this year will be even better. I don't drive like a complete ******* but there are low-traffic back roads in my area where I can push the limits, which I do every chance I get. The camber plates are looking more like the route I'm going to take since I get adjustability for only $50 more than strut mounts. Now I just have to find a shop in my area capable of a quality race alignment.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

If it's only $50 more, it's a no brainer. Do it.

rxtuner79

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, two strut mounts from Racing Beat are $213 shipped and the Techno Toy plates with the upper hats are $263 shipped. I guess getting the strut shafts turned down isn't a huge problem so I'll most likely be buying those. I want to thank everyone for your input, it's very much appreciated. I'm psyched to get the work done. The only Rx-7's I've driven are this car, my last '89 NA w/ stock suspension and my '79 so I'm looking forward to seeing what this can do with everything upgraded and refreshed.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

it is nice to get a good alignment to start with, you will want something basic your first few times out, as you wanna learn to drive first

once you get comfortable in the seat, you do want to try different alignment settings to see what they do. it becomes very nice to know how to add or subtract under or oversteer, when needed. and in this case its nice to do your own alignments. its fiddly, but its not actually hard.

rxtuner79

iTrader: (1)

I think it would be cool to learn how and why to make adjustments but I agree, I'll stick with learning to actually drive first. I called T3 yesterday, camber plates and upper hat system should ship by the end of the week and they were able to apply a discount over the phone that wasn't available online. The package ended up being around $30 more than the strut mounts so I'm happy about that.

The Bilsteins came in yesterday, time to find a machine shop and have them modified to fit. Ground Control said that the strut shaft needed to be turned down to 5/8" and T3 confirmed. For the record, Ground Control said to call them with any questions before or during install and T3 told me to email pictures of the struts so they can see exactly what I'm working with and what to modify. Both companies answered plenty of questions, took my orders over the phone and insisted I call back with any questions so I give them both an A+ for customer service so far.

rxtuner79

iTrader: (1)

Has anyone ever had strut shafts turned down before? I'm worried that putting the whole thing in a lathe to get the shaft to 5/8" will make it wobble too much and disassembling them is obviously not an option.