cruiser

Looking at pics from our trackday they just confirm what I have been feeling/noticing while hard cornering:



Another one:


Isn't so much bodyroll a bit too much for a stock FD ?

Or is this normal and I should just get a coilover installed to stiffen it up ?

TobiasRX

i would say it's the 10 year old bushings that needs to be changed.

UnSeeN

Stock suspension handles well..but to an extent because i think they were designed to perform and still be comfortable enough for the street. Keep in mind the car is a decade old. For the track or racing new struts and springs or a whole coilover kit if you dont mind the price and stiffness for daily driving. I dont know about the Euro spec FD's but in a America after 93 the stock suspension only got softer.

skunks

get some tien HT spec coilovers, feel the 1007lb spring rate/18kgf

cruiser

Could worn out bushings be causing that ? I do need to change them - over the bumps I hear clunks from the rear suspension...

Could be that euro-FDs came with softer suspension ? (we do have all the goodies though - dual oil coolers, leather, AC, sunroof, ...)

matty

get a modular sway bar up front. If you cant go full coilover atleast go with some stiff springs on koni yellows. Dont get H/R or eibach springs. Look into the M2's. Anything besides these are street springs offering only a slightly firmer ride, if that. I went with eibach progressives and they are not what i was looking for and will be forsale soon.

blackscorpio

i had eibacs on koni yellows along with a strut barace and that worked wonders.

rceron

There is absolutely nothing wrong with springs made by H&R or Eibach. Just realize that progressive springs (from any company) are probably not what you want. Make sure that the shock you choose is designed to handle the spring rate you select.

Ramon

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

That looks about right for the stock suspension. Here's DamonB on one of his runs:



I use the Eibach springs. Yes, they are progressive so they give a little more roll than the linear springs but I wanted springs that would still handle well for street driving as well as the track. If your car is a dedicated track car or you have decent streets, the harder linear spring would be ok. If not then you might think about the progressive type springs. They will give a confortable ride on bumpy streets as well as add better handling in aggressive driving.

DamonB

First off, let's get some facts. Stock FD's do not have stiff springs. Shocks do not control body roll (that is always done by springs and sway bars). And bushings do not contribute to roll (though they can wreak havoc elsewhere). Body roll is not necessarily a bad thing. You could put a sway bar on there so stiff the car won't roll at all and then you'll see how much LESS grip you have! There's a lot more involved than just roll.

There are lots of good links in our link list here and one especially about sway bars.

Here's me going through an off camber corner at about 45 while rolling into the throttle at the Houston National Tour. The one above is a slow corner with me on the brakes and pitching the car hard; notice the right rear nearly in the air. This one a faster corner while coming into the power. Only suspension mods are Konis and an adjustable Tripoint front sway bar; car is on stock springs.



Keep this in mind:

As for shocks, keep in mind what they and the springs really do. Springs support the weight of the chassis and resist roll, dive and squat; shocks effect the rate of the weight transfer of the chassis along with damping the springs. A spring reacts with the same amount of force regardless of the velocity of the displacement, a shock reacts with a force directly proportional to the velocity of the displacement. What this means is that typically in transition you feel the shocks and in steady state you feel the springs and bars. Keep that in mind when tuning; is your trouble entry, cornering or exit?

More good sway bar talk here

SleepR1

My FD3S rolls that much with H&R springs, Eibach sway bars fr/rr, stock R1 shocks...

matty

hey ron...how ya been...i know i know i owe you some pfc maps. gonna pm you now.

i was commenting on the progressive rate springs more so then the linear springs. however, if upgrading the springs for use on a track dont u think a more aggressive spring rate is necessary to unable the fd to corner more flat then the typical off the shelf pro-kits or h/r's?

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

As Damon pionted out, cornering flat isn't necessarily the goal. You want some roll unless it's an F1 car.

matty

i hear ya,...but cornering flat is cool. no sir, but the guy that posted was asking about roll.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

He was asking about body roll but not as a problem, but how it looks (which is why Damon explained how body roll is not a bad thing).

Take a look at this car:



That's RTS3GEN here on the forum. I'm not sure of the springs/sway bars he's running but he has a full track setup on his car (as well as race sticky tires) and you still see some body roll. And that's not a very tight turn in the picture.

redrotorR1

Damon always beats me to the punchline. Dern it.

At ~290lbs/in (F) and ~210lbs/in (R), the stock FD springs are anything but stiff. From your pictures, cruiser, I'd say you weren't pushing those corners hard enough .... I have seen pics of my car rolled even FURTHER on basically the same setup as DamonB. Yes, my fender linings hate me; but, as SleepR1 mentioned, body roll is not necessarily a bad thing. If you want less body roll, you will inherently sacrifice some grip ... unless you increase your contact patch, i.e. bigger wheels with fatter rubber. That is exactly why I have waited on upgrading to coilovers (with very stiff spring rates) ... I need more cash so I can buy some CCW's and 285/30 18 Hoosier-daddys to go along with them.

cruiser

Yes, thing is that the corner in the picture wasn't taken at the max and when looking at it I had a feeling that it was too much bodyroll I was referring more to the pic when my rex is pictured from behind.

If that is normal I guess I'll live with it and adopt my driving style.

I will once install stiffer springs, but my FD is not a track only car. I use it mainly on the street which can get quite bumpy on few places.

And hey... I only have like 1.5k miles driven with my FD, so give me a break about not cornering hard enough (virtually no runoff zones) j/k

Thanks!

vosko

iTrader: (4)

with my tokico's and RB springs... i got just about no roll. its even better now with gab coilovers! very high spring rate 9front 8 rear or 8/7kg/cm either way really stiff and i like em

DamonB

What makes a car prone to roll in cornering is really due to its roll center. The roll center is a function of the suspension geometry and the height of the car's center of gravity. That is why "street" type cars always roll more than a "formula" car for example. It's entirely possible to build a car whose roll center is beneath the pavement, but that has bigger drawbacks. Just as too much anti-dive in the suspension etc has drawbacks. It's never as simple as it looks. To me suspension seems to certainly be one of those things where the more you study it the more you realize you don't know.

vosko

iTrader: (4)

i forgot i have RB sway bars too, here is a pic of me attempting to drift my car at englishtown... only FD there!





more pix here
http://www.vosko.net/photos/fd/drift/

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

I see body roll.

:[TenzO]:

Heres me at Drift Day 6 in SF trying to start a Drift (look at that weight shift hehe). My set ups Tokicos / H&Rs w/ Bad Bushings.

vosko

iTrader: (4)

well i don't have a wheel not touching the ground like everyone else

DamonB

That's because you drive slow like my Granny.

rynberg

Here's a pic of me going into a turn at my last auto-x. This is on street tires on a very slippery concrete surface with 400/290 springs (HKS) and Konis set to almost full hard.