After just porting my 2nd set of 13B-RE irons this weekend, that was the first thing I noticed too Anthony. Those irons should have been beveled in my opinion... it seemed inevitable to catch and cause damage to the side seals.

 

that is definetly the seal catching on the lip. you want a bevel but not too much cuz you still want the scissor effect when closing. but that usually applies to big ports mostly. when going to big the seal drops in the port even on stock ones they do you can see the wear marks with a magnifying glass but porting enhances this effect causing what happened to yours possibly. look at the australian forum they have a full write up and high qualtiy photos of what happens

 

There's no way in the world that those primary ports are allowing a side seal to hit the closing edge. That's only possible when a large percentage of the side seal itself is exposed to an open intake port, ala having no iron underneath. Even if I cut the short radius of those intake ports to 10mm width from the rotor housing land, a side seal still wouldn't begin to dip down and then scuff the closing edge of the port because the length of the primary port itself is short. The way a side seal edge hits a closing edge of an intake port is when the short radius is cut so much, with an intake port that's so wide, where enough of the overall length of the side has nothing to ride over: it's spring loaded and the seal falls into the port at a slight angle, allowing the front edge of that seal to either scuff the closing edge of the port, round off, or in worst cases break off entirely. I've seen way too wide of ports break side seals and produce these effects; there's no way that's the case here.

B

 

Plus, another thought on this "beveling" notion: it only has merit if it's being used as a work-around to "scoop up" an already falling into the intake port side seal. If that's the case, then the port is just flat too wide to begin with.

 

In the 6th photo the O.P. posted shows signs of carbon build up to the side seal. I think the carbon build up to the side seal came first causing the other side seals to fail. Then the broken seal nicked the top of the port.

Bearing problem, rotor/housing clearance issue, bad e-shaft. ???

Not from bad porting.
just a thought!

 

checking the turbine wheel/housing would be the logical next step, as has been mentioned

 

Yeup, I am in college now, 3 hours away from my turbo. I have told my dad to check, but he really has no clue, and I know he will say he found nothing even if he does because he thinks I am crazy for wanting to stick with this engine. lol.

 

Here are some seal track pictures if anyone is interested. Going too close to the water seal would kill the leading edge of the seal and not the trailing. I laid out the seal tracks and made my template from that to ensure that i didn't have any issues.

 

even on a stock ported motor you can pit the seal under a strong magnifying glass or microscope and see where the intake closing edge wears on the seal. but its just a thought 13b- rx3 has a better thought on the matter for sure

 

Ok, well here is an update.

Before I left for college and I checked the cold side of the turbo, and saw zero, nicks, scratches, anything. Looked new. (I only used it for ....500 miles. Seriously, replaced it right before the event/blown engine and drove 98% highway miles.)

Had my dad take off the hot side of the turbo and check out the hot sides turbine and housing. I asked him, to really really check everything out, and he assured me there was absolutely NOTHING wrong with the hot sides blades our housing. No scratches, no nicks, nothing. I even had him wipe/scrub it down with a tooth brush in case something was hidden under the soot. Nothing. Brand new PT67.

I guess that is good because my turbo isn't hurt but .... where did my side seals go? lol Even if they were slowly killing themselves on the port wouldn't they have caused tiny nicks in the turbine? Judging by how my motor idle, AFRs, and missing slowly got worse over the 200 miles back from the event, I would have to guess it was slowly chipping away at the side seals. If something flew in that was big enough to get pinched between the plate's port and the side of the rotor, AND was some how lucky enough to go through the engine without getting smashed between the rotors face and the housing, what are the chances it flew through the turbo without touching anything? Did I just get sniped by JFK's magic bullet?? Judging by the exhaust flowing past the missing parts of the side seal maybe they got pushed into the oil system? I have a magnetic oil pan plug, and there was absolutely, zero, metal on there. I have checked every oil change, and even more closely on this last tear down. Nothing.

I'm about to rip my hair out. I see all these people putting down 400, 500 rwhp, running sub 11 second quarter mile runs every weekend, and I can't keep a 300 rwhp 11 psi engine alive for 2 events a season. I know it isn't my driving, I am never over reving or doing anything stupid, I have been harder on the engine passing people on the way to college, or doing a dyno. Are all these 400+ rwhp people secretly rebuilding every other event, or am I playing this game wrong? lol

Thank you guys for all the help. I really do appreciate it a lot.

 

I bet the difference between you and the others lies on the engine builder and tuner.

 

I'm still confident that there were no debris but if you want to be 100% sure post a picture of the turbine wheel and myself or another member can make the judgment.

Did you keep all your seals organized when you tore down the motor? Take some measurements of the side seals that were in contact with that port to see if there's any abnormal jagged marks or wear on them.

I really don't have a doubt in my mind about the porting. I really honestly think it was a clearancing error. To be sure about your next motor send all your components to any competent builder here on the forums or even better yet send them to Brian and have him build the motor.

 

! Breaking News ! (Pun intended, lol)

Got some interesting news today from my dad. I was on the phone with him for a while today getting as much info as I could from him before he had to fly out of town. Got some port measurements and such, nothing really exciting there, he will give me the results when he gets back, but found out something really cool.

The OTHER side of the side seal is the side that broke.

Here is a picture of what I mean.


Where we (or at least I) thought the side seal broke was where the red circle was. I crossed that out in yellow. My dad said that that side of the side seal is smooth and angled from where I grounded it down to meet the corner seal when I installed them.

The other side of the side seal (the big green and red arrows point) is where the side seal actually broke! He said the edge is obviously rough and busted. Also on one of the busted side seals, he could obviously see where the edge of the side seal was smoothed or beveled on the side coming out of the rotor. I hope to get my younger sister to take and upload pictures of that tonight. ( I hope lol). This means that the side seal broke on that side, then the pressure from the combustion must have slowly pushed the side seal up the track. Crazy. But I guess the friction from the plates would most likely cause them to slowly move that way also as the rotor rotated also. Lol, I don't know just thinking out loud. Really glad I left all the side seals in the rotors.

To me this feels very important, but I don't know why. Could someone please explain it to me. Visualizing it in my head, I really don't understand how that side of the side seal could break off. Also remember that the bottom left and top corner seals were also busted. :/ I feel like a detective trying to put the clues together to find the murderer.

Thanks
~Tweak

(Oh and because I keep forgetting to say, I installed all the side seals with a .004 gap.)

 

Tweak, this is a second example of what 13B-RX3 is trying to show you. Pictured is an ITO template on dowels showing the leading edge of the side seal staying captured by the side housing.
The closing end of the side seal depends on a scissors closing effect and a smooth transition back onto the side housing. Lynn Hanover would say "this should be as smooth as possible,
picture your tongue running over this edge at 100 mph." Add dirt from your busted air tube and ……

Barry

 

Ok, I understand now.... Thank you.

I think .... I give up. The rotary gods win.

~Tweak

 

Nothing ever wins until the instant you give up...

 

thats a great picture he posted for you tweak. sorry for this loss man.

 

I guess, I could keep spending money on this money pit rebuilding, and building engines twice a year for the rest of my life. oooooorrrr I could move onto something else. Maybe I win for letting it stop holding me down, using up all my time and money. I can only try so hard before its obvious this isn't ever going to work out for me.

Can't say I didn't try, and try, and try, and try, and try, and try, and try, and try, and try, and try, and try. (That is an actual representation of how many unique rotary engine have been in and out of my 1988 GTU alone. Yes 11 in 3 years.)

Yeup, yes it was a great picture. No problem, I am used to blowing engine doing nothing special. But thanks.

I have never had the time to sit with a rotary engine and study how and where the seals and parts go. Maybe that is my problem lol. But that cleared it up right away. I knew I was missing something, I was very confused how I could possibly blow a trailing edge of a side seal. Problem solved.

 

sorry to hear man, sometimes it pays to have a professional build the engine instead of you trying to learn and do it urself.

 

Lol, I have built many engine myself, and all of them are still running strong except this one. I am not really learning anything right here lol, this one didn't die from builder error. This was and was not my fault. It was not my fault because I built it wrong, it was my fault I let a piece of dirt/dust/rock get in when my coupler blew drifting. I would never pay someone to build this simple yet stupidly fragile rotary engine for me. It either works, it doesn't, or it works, and you suck in a magic ninja anti-rotary rock and **** your side seals up. lol. Not sure how you could build an engine to blow a trailing side of a side seal, after 5,000+ miles, even if you tried. This is just another example of my bad luck. :/

 

Yeah bro, if it wasn't put together correctly, it would NOT have even gotten close to 5000 miles and lived through dyno tuning...
You do have bad luck.

Do you happen to break mirrors for fun?
or Beat up gypsies?
or dig up old Indian corpses?

 

Maybe this is karma for making fun of all the piston powered cars over the years. :/

 

Ok, I'm pretty sure I found the answer to what happened to my poor RE. First let me set up the facts I now know.



1. Side seal A and B broke off on the TRAILING ends.

2. The corner seals between A-B, and C-A, were cracked.


3. These are the marks on the primary port (the side where all these happened)



4. The Trailing part of my last surviving side seal C is beveled like so:



This theory goes like this.

The port is too round on the top left, because this port has already been made wider, the tip of the trailing side of the side seal is not supported fully by the plate as it is stock. (I think) That is NOT an issue because of the scissor effect talked about above. But if the bigger port is rounded off smoothly at the top, instead of making a sharp turn, there is a chance that the side seal could hit the corner of the port, before it becomes supported by the support of the scissor effect.







NOW NONE OF THESE LINES OR DRAWING HAVE ANY MATH TO THEM! I have no clue if that is the angle that a side seal passes past a port! Please correct me if I am wrong! I would love to get as close as possible. I just tried to follow the wear makes on the plate with the corner seal and slowly rotate the side seal with it.

I think the two other notches on the ports are from the leading edge of the side seals AFTER they have been considerably shortened from the trailing side being busted off and moving back in the rotor. The leading sides of the busted side seals have noticeable notches in them.

If the port was actually ported MORE on the top left, this would give the scissor effect more time for the scissor effect to happen before the end of the side seal gets to the ports lip. (And not chance for the trailing end of the side seal to crash)



(Lol, crude drawing and really hard angle there, but it shows my point)

It would explain how my engine slowly died out, how the coupler or drifting had nothing to do with it since it happened 200 miles / 3 hours later after the coupler blew. I really doubt a rock or dirt would have somehow chilled on my throttle body for hours, waiting for the perfect moment to jump into my port, bust only the trailing side seals, and leave without a trace. (no housing, rotor, or turbo damage) Is there really any other way to bevel the trailing side of a side seal other than that way?

Let me know what you guys think, I am just a noob looking for answers. lol

Thanks
~Tweak

 

I can't verify that is what happened in your motor but i can tell you the exact same condition was present in the first motor i ported and built. Luckily i caught it before anything broke, laid the area back a little, and no more problems! I cant think of anything else that would cause the side seal to wear like that but i am still a newb at the porting/building game.

 

I have no new insight into your detective case, but I too find it unlikely that a foreign object entered the intake tract through the ripped coupler. The turbo would still be spinning and generating pressure, this pressure would then be getting pushed out past the rip in the coupler, i think it would be pretty hard for something to find its way into a coupler that has air escaping it.

Also I'm not sure which side of the intercooler the coupler is on, but I was imagining it was the coupler right on the turbo that ripped... in which case the foreign object would have to make its way past the intercooler. This would also be a difficult position for road debris to reach. My last turbo had a compressor wheel fly apart, my coupler had chunks of metal embedded into it, and my intercooler also had pieces of metal. Nothing made it to the engine though. Or if anything did it didn't damage anything.

I'm also wondering how your coupler only took 10 psi of boost? I have some pretty crappy (3ply?) couplers on mine (one of which was stabbed multiple times with flying compressor chunks) and it's been holding 16 psi for a long long time. I think you do have some terrible luck with these engines..