What happened to my engine? (RE) (PICs + Video)
06-17-09, 12:56 PM
#101
I had to go back and edit my post because it wasn't very nice 
I know that everyone has their own opinion and i can't fault you for having yours. I speak from experience and not theory when i say that this can happen and i have seen it with my own two eyes. It has nothing to do with the opening edge of the port because like you said before, on the factory ports the trailing edge of the seal is completely unsupported over the entire length of the port. The problem occurs when you change the shape of the closing edge of the port. From the factory the port is slanted downward to cause a scissor effect. It starts at the right hand side of the closing line (opposite of the opening line) and gradually pushes the unsupported side seal back into the rotor (from right to left). But if you remove that slant and have the closing line of the port straight or have too gradual of a radius there the opening and closing lines meet the seal will collide with the left edge of the closing line or the radius between the opening and closing line. So you either have to port the closing line of the port in a way that it has enough of a slant so that it will push the seal back inside the rotor before collision or you have to lay the radius of the port back into the face of the iron so when the seal arrives there it wedges it back into the rotor rather than meeting a sharp edged radius. If you have never encountered this kudos to you, but it can happen.
I know that everyone has their own opinion and i can't fault you for having yours. I speak from experience and not theory when i say that this can happen and i have seen it with my own two eyes. It has nothing to do with the opening edge of the port because like you said before, on the factory ports the trailing edge of the seal is completely unsupported over the entire length of the port. The problem occurs when you change the shape of the closing edge of the port. From the factory the port is slanted downward to cause a scissor effect. It starts at the right hand side of the closing line (opposite of the opening line) and gradually pushes the unsupported side seal back into the rotor (from right to left). But if you remove that slant and have the closing line of the port straight or have too gradual of a radius there the opening and closing lines meet the seal will collide with the left edge of the closing line or the radius between the opening and closing line. So you either have to port the closing line of the port in a way that it has enough of a slant so that it will push the seal back inside the rotor before collision or you have to lay the radius of the port back into the face of the iron so when the seal arrives there it wedges it back into the rotor rather than meeting a sharp edged radius. If you have never encountered this kudos to you, but it can happen.
06-17-09, 01:12 PM
#103
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Yep, I did just that 7 years ago for the first time and have setup many times since. Unless your looking at something other than the mazda 13bt it does indeed drop into the port stock. And it does so at an angle on a ported primary port less damaging than it does on a stock secondary port. To bad you cant answer a simple question like that. Yes or no, obviously you didnt know???
Any failure comes from the leading edge not the trailing, that is unless you really dorked up the port and I cant think of any port configuration that could do that on the closing edge. And these are not dorked up ports.
QUOTE=djseven;9295825]
Once again, Im not doing your homework for you, take a rotor, e-shaft, iron and it should become clear. If you cant figure out why the closing edge port shape makes the above question irrelevent, I have nothing more to add 
[/QUOTE]
Any failure comes from the leading edge not the trailing, that is unless you really dorked up the port and I cant think of any port configuration that could do that on the closing edge. And these are not dorked up ports.
QUOTE=djseven;9295825]
Once again, Im not doing your homework for you, take a rotor, e-shaft, iron and it should become clear. If you cant figure out why the closing edge port shape makes the above question irrelevent, I have nothing more to add [/QUOTE]
06-17-09, 01:27 PM
#104
Yep, I did just that 7 years ago for the first time and have setup many times since. Unless your looking at something other than the mazda 13bt it does indeed drop into the port stock. And it does so at an angle on a ported primary port less damaging than it does on a stock secondary port. To bad you cant answer a simple question like that. Yes or no, obviously you didnt know???
Any failure comes from the leading edge not the trailing, that is unless you really dorked up the port and I cant think of any port configuration that could do that on the closing edge. And these are not dorked up ports.
Any failure comes from the leading edge not the trailing, that is unless you really dorked up the port and I cant think of any port configuration that could do that on the closing edge. And these are not dorked up ports.
Did you honestly even read what I posted? Anyone with knowledge could easily decipher my answer to your question. The only thing "obvious" right now is you still cant figure out why the radius/shape of the closing edge makes the question you asked repeatedly, completely irrelevent.
06-17-09, 01:57 PM
#105
I had to go back and edit my post because it wasn't very nice I know that everyone has their own opinion and i can't fault you for having yours. I speak from experience and not theory when i say that this can happen and i have seen it with my own two eyes. It has nothing to do with the opening edge of the port because like you said before, on the factory ports the trailing edge of the seal is completely unsupported over the entire length of the port. The problem occurs when you change the shape of the closing edge of the port. From the factory the port is slanted downward to cause a scissor effect. It starts at the right hand side of the closing line (opposite of the opening line) and gradually pushes the unsupported side seal back into the rotor (from right to left). But if you remove that slant and have the closing line of the port straight or have too gradual of a radius there the opening and closing lines meet the seal will collide with the left edge of the closing line or the radius between the opening and closing line. So you either have to port the closing line of the port in a way that it has enough of a slant so that it will push the seal back inside the rotor before collision or you have to lay the radius of the port back into the face of the iron so when the seal arrives there it wedges it back into the rotor rather than meeting a sharp edged radius. If you have never encountered this kudos to you, but it can happen.
I know that everyone has their own opinion and i can't fault you for having yours. I speak from experience and not theory when i say that this can happen and i have seen it with my own two eyes. It has nothing to do with the opening edge of the port because like you said before, on the factory ports the trailing edge of the seal is completely unsupported over the entire length of the port. The problem occurs when you change the shape of the closing edge of the port. From the factory the port is slanted downward to cause a scissor effect. It starts at the right hand side of the closing line (opposite of the opening line) and gradually pushes the unsupported side seal back into the rotor (from right to left). But if you remove that slant and have the closing line of the port straight or have too gradual of a radius there the opening and closing lines meet the seal will collide with the left edge of the closing line or the radius between the opening and closing line. So you either have to port the closing line of the port in a way that it has enough of a slant so that it will push the seal back inside the rotor before collision or you have to lay the radius of the port back into the face of the iron so when the seal arrives there it wedges it back into the rotor rather than meeting a sharp edged radius. If you have never encountered this kudos to you, but it can happen.
06-17-09, 02:03 PM
#106
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Absolutely mind blowing. You say Im wrong, but can give no explanation as to why, you cant answer my questions but say Im the one who needs to do homework. I know how the side seal falls into a worse situation that the port shown stock and you give some unclear answer as to weather it does or not.
Pretty much says to me your here to advertise and not school me.
5000+ miles on this engine plust dyno tuning, nothing happend till one day at a drift event after
a known intake leak after the filter.
Can you tell me why the side seals stayed toguther so long if it was the trailing edge that
broke off becuse of the port?
Look, I understand all the arguments for a champher, but its done for the leading edge not the trailing edge of the side seal when you open the port earlier than stock. I think its a hack. Its not done becuse you think the side seal drops out on the trailing edge and breaks off. If that was the case mazda woulda had a recall on all 13b's, Again, the stock angle that the CURVED side seal goes by the stock primary port is WORSE than whats in these ports. So how the hell can you say that it was the port that caused this to happen on the trailing edge of the side seal?
Curve the side seal in those animations and you get a much different picture.
Not one of you guys who say "oh, Ive seen it happen on x or y" can actaully SHOW me how you think it happend or explain in a way that makes sense to someone who understands how the side seals interact with both the primary and secondary ports.
The only possible argument here is the leading edge. And since you can clearly see the tracks its not droping in the port.
End of story, I dont care how many engines you build, or how much horsepower you can muster. You could see this on ONE engine build.
Hide behind your post count or the fact that you have built x ammount of engines, If you cant explain it you dont understand it.
Pretty much says to me your here to advertise and not school me.
5000+ miles on this engine plust dyno tuning, nothing happend till one day at a drift event after
a known intake leak after the filter.
Can you tell me why the side seals stayed toguther so long if it was the trailing edge that
broke off becuse of the port?
Look, I understand all the arguments for a champher, but its done for the leading edge not the trailing edge of the side seal when you open the port earlier than stock. I think its a hack. Its not done becuse you think the side seal drops out on the trailing edge and breaks off. If that was the case mazda woulda had a recall on all 13b's, Again, the stock angle that the CURVED side seal goes by the stock primary port is WORSE than whats in these ports. So how the hell can you say that it was the port that caused this to happen on the trailing edge of the side seal?
Curve the side seal in those animations and you get a much different picture.
Not one of you guys who say "oh, Ive seen it happen on x or y" can actaully SHOW me how you think it happend or explain in a way that makes sense to someone who understands how the side seals interact with both the primary and secondary ports.
The only possible argument here is the leading edge. And since you can clearly see the tracks its not droping in the port.
End of story, I dont care how many engines you build, or how much horsepower you can muster. You could see this on ONE engine build.
Hide behind your post count or the fact that you have built x ammount of engines, If you cant explain it you dont understand it.
Did you honestly even read what I posted? Anyone with knowledge could easily decipher my answer to your question. The only thing "obvious" right now is you still cant figure out why the radius/shape of the closing edge makes the question you asked repeatedly, completely irrelevent.
06-17-09, 02:11 PM
#107
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13B-RX3- I now have great respect for you. That was a great answer anyone who does not get it should read what he said. Its said much better than me.
The argument I have with it is I dont think there is enough angle on the ports in question to cause that problem on the closing edge considering the side seals are curved.
Thats all Im sayin.
But damm, worded great
The argument I have with it is I dont think there is enough angle on the ports in question to cause that problem on the closing edge considering the side seals are curved.
Thats all Im sayin.
But damm, worded great
I had to go back and edit my post because it wasn't very nice I know that everyone has their own opinion and i can't fault you for having yours. I speak from experience and not theory when i say that this can happen and i have seen it with my own two eyes. It has nothing to do with the opening edge of the port because like you said before, on the factory ports the trailing edge of the seal is completely unsupported over the entire length of the port. The problem occurs when you change the shape of the closing edge of the port. From the factory the port is slanted downward to cause a scissor effect. It starts at the right hand side of the closing line (opposite of the opening line) and gradually pushes the unsupported side seal back into the rotor (from right to left). But if you remove that slant and have the closing line of the port straight or have too gradual of a radius there the opening and closing lines meet the seal will collide with the left edge of the closing line or the radius between the opening and closing line. So you either have to port the closing line of the port in a way that it has enough of a slant so that it will push the seal back inside the rotor before collision or you have to lay the radius of the port back into the face of the iron so when the seal arrives there it wedges it back into the rotor rather than meeting a sharp edged radius. If you have never encountered this kudos to you, but it can happen.
I know that everyone has their own opinion and i can't fault you for having yours. I speak from experience and not theory when i say that this can happen and i have seen it with my own two eyes. It has nothing to do with the opening edge of the port because like you said before, on the factory ports the trailing edge of the seal is completely unsupported over the entire length of the port. The problem occurs when you change the shape of the closing edge of the port. From the factory the port is slanted downward to cause a scissor effect. It starts at the right hand side of the closing line (opposite of the opening line) and gradually pushes the unsupported side seal back into the rotor (from right to left). But if you remove that slant and have the closing line of the port straight or have too gradual of a radius there the opening and closing lines meet the seal will collide with the left edge of the closing line or the radius between the opening and closing line. So you either have to port the closing line of the port in a way that it has enough of a slant so that it will push the seal back inside the rotor before collision or you have to lay the radius of the port back into the face of the iron so when the seal arrives there it wedges it back into the rotor rather than meeting a sharp edged radius. If you have never encountered this kudos to you, but it can happen.
06-17-09, 02:14 PM
#108
Absolutely mind blowing. You say Im wrong, but can give no explanation as to why, you cant answer my questions but say Im the one who needs to do homework. I know how the side seal falls into a worse situation that the port shown stock and you give some unclear answer as to weather it does or not.
Pretty much says to me your here to advertise and not school me.
5000+ miles on this engine plust dyno tuning, nothing happend till one day at a drift event after
a known intake leak after the filter.
Can you tell me why the side seals stayed toguther so long if it was the trailing edge that
broke off becuse of the port?
Look, I understand all the arguments for a champher, but its done for the leading edge not the trailing edge of the side seal when you open the port earlier than stock. I think its a hack. Its not done becuse you think the side seal drops out on the trailing edge and breaks off. If that was the case mazda woulda had a recall on all 13b's, Again, the stock angle that the CURVED side seal goes by the stock primary port is WORSE than whats in these ports. So how the hell can you say that it was the port that caused this to happen on the trailing edge of the side seal?
Curve the side seal in those animations and you get a much different picture.
Not one of you guys who say "oh, Ive seen it happen on x or y" can actaully SHOW me how you think it happend or explain in a way that makes sense to someone who understands how the side seals interact with both the primary and secondary ports.
The only possible argument here is the leading edge. And since you can clearly see the tracks its not droping in the port.
End of story, I dont care how many engines you build, or how much horsepower you can muster. You could see this on ONE engine build.
Hide behind your post count or the fact that you have built x ammount of engines, If you cant explain it you dont understand it.
Pretty much says to me your here to advertise and not school me.
5000+ miles on this engine plust dyno tuning, nothing happend till one day at a drift event after
a known intake leak after the filter.
Can you tell me why the side seals stayed toguther so long if it was the trailing edge that
broke off becuse of the port?
Look, I understand all the arguments for a champher, but its done for the leading edge not the trailing edge of the side seal when you open the port earlier than stock. I think its a hack. Its not done becuse you think the side seal drops out on the trailing edge and breaks off. If that was the case mazda woulda had a recall on all 13b's, Again, the stock angle that the CURVED side seal goes by the stock primary port is WORSE than whats in these ports. So how the hell can you say that it was the port that caused this to happen on the trailing edge of the side seal?
Curve the side seal in those animations and you get a much different picture.
Not one of you guys who say "oh, Ive seen it happen on x or y" can actaully SHOW me how you think it happend or explain in a way that makes sense to someone who understands how the side seals interact with both the primary and secondary ports.
The only possible argument here is the leading edge. And since you can clearly see the tracks its not droping in the port.
End of story, I dont care how many engines you build, or how much horsepower you can muster. You could see this on ONE engine build.
Hide behind your post count or the fact that you have built x ammount of engines, If you cant explain it you dont understand it.
Then I was only here to advertise (I think there are several hundred, possibly thousand + who would have a different opinion on that) , now I am hiding behind how many engines I have built and my experience So which is it
Who would have thought you would see the day on this forum when you are criticized/scrutinized for "hiding behind" your experience.
Its clear you are going to argue no matter who/how many people come in and say they have REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE to the contrary of what you are saying.
In all seriousnesss, best of luck to you. Hopefully someday I can learn from you.
EDIT: Someone with your experience honestly had to read 13B's post to better understand what happened in this situation? After you constantly saying you were only speaking FACTs that it was impossible to happen? However, now you kinda get it?
If you think I come off as an ***, go back and read your posts. We all have plenty to learn here and when people come in closed minded, stating "facts" about something they havent seen you cant expect a much different response. I guess 13B is just a nicer guy then me.
Last edited by djseven; 06-17-09 at 02:22 PM.
06-17-09, 02:36 PM
#110
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I was saying he worded it well, not that it helped me understand it.
Come on, let us all know how you would word it. Have not answerd one question yet.
Still waiting for you to flex your knowledge.
So far youve shown me how good you are at twisting everything I say to your own benifit but
not once have you actually made any sort of explanation as did 13B.
Disagreements are what bring about innovation. So join in and lets hear your thoughts not
how much you wanna school me with your wit.
This hasta be entertaining for those watching it.
EDIT: Someone with your experience honestly had to read 13B's post to better understand what happened in this situation? After you constantly saying you were only speaking FACTs that it was impossible to happen? However, now you kinda get it?
If you think I come off as an ***, go back and read your posts. We all have plenty to learn here and when people come in closed minded, stating "facts" about something they havent seen you cant expect a much different response. I guess 13B is just a nicer guy then me.
Come on, let us all know how you would word it. Have not answerd one question yet.
Still waiting for you to flex your knowledge.
So far youve shown me how good you are at twisting everything I say to your own benifit but
not once have you actually made any sort of explanation as did 13B.
Disagreements are what bring about innovation. So join in and lets hear your thoughts not
how much you wanna school me with your wit.
This hasta be entertaining for those watching it.
EDIT: Someone with your experience honestly had to read 13B's post to better understand what happened in this situation? After you constantly saying you were only speaking FACTs that it was impossible to happen? However, now you kinda get it?
If you think I come off as an ***, go back and read your posts. We all have plenty to learn here and when people come in closed minded, stating "facts" about something they havent seen you cant expect a much different response. I guess 13B is just a nicer guy then me.
06-17-09, 02:54 PM
#111
I was saying he worded it well, not that it helped me understand it.
Come on, let us all know how you would word it. Have not answerd one question yet.
Still waiting for you to flex your knowledge.
So far youve shown me how good you are at twisting everything I say to your own benifit but
not once have you actually made any sort of explanation as did 13B.
Disagreements are what bring about innovation. So join in and lets hear your thoughts not
how much you wanna school me with your wit.
This hasta be entertaining for those watching it.
Come on, let us all know how you would word it. Have not answerd one question yet.
Still waiting for you to flex your knowledge.
So far youve shown me how good you are at twisting everything I say to your own benifit but
not once have you actually made any sort of explanation as did 13B.
Disagreements are what bring about innovation. So join in and lets hear your thoughts not
how much you wanna school me with your wit.
This hasta be entertaining for those watching it.
06-17-09, 03:01 PM
#112
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Got two sets of RE plates on the shelf, and already did that, have plenty of times. I disagree that the ports in question will cause a problem on the trailing edge of the side seal.
It just wont, On some other magic port I would never use, yes, possibly, but not the one in question.
Im not gonna bite on the hints thing. Your talking down to me, which I have about as much respect for you as you do for me. So please, either spit it out or keep up with the wit.
It just wont, On some other magic port I would never use, yes, possibly, but not the one in question.
Im not gonna bite on the hints thing. Your talking down to me, which I have about as much respect for you as you do for me. So please, either spit it out or keep up with the wit.
How about I give you hints and see if you can piece it together, sound fair? I want you to think what happens when you keep the outer part of the closing edge open longer as Tweakgames illustrated on page 2. Not being a dick, seriously think about it. Part of the trailing edge of side seal is still left unsupported, even think back to your theory of the stock secondary port. Look at the stock RE port, notice anything different? These are all clues leading you down the right path.
06-17-09, 03:14 PM
#113
Got two sets of RE plates on the shelf, and already did that, have plenty of times. I disagree that the ports in question will cause a problem on the trailing edge of the side seal.
It just wont, On some other magic port I would never use, yes, possibly, but not the one in question.
Im not gonna bite on the hints thing. Your talking down to me, which I have about as much respect for you as you do for me. So please, either spit it out or keep up with the wit.
It just wont, On some other magic port I would never use, yes, possibly, but not the one in question.
Im not gonna bite on the hints thing. Your talking down to me, which I have about as much respect for you as you do for me. So please, either spit it out or keep up with the wit.
Take the time to very very slowy rotate a rotor on an eshaft sitting on a iron with a stat gear in place, seriously it should become clear. With stock ports or correctly ported irons it is a little harder to grasp. Though, the seals are spring loaded the trailing edge will still drop into the intake port, if the closing edge of the port is shaped incorrectly this is the result you have.
If your opinion isnt changed by what you have seen/read in this thread it will never change. Hopefully you will never make the porting mistake and have your "opinion" changed the hard way. Its a fine line as to what will fly, and what wont. Sorry we had to go thru all the bullshit, but you have to look at how you came across on here. You have a lot of experienced people in this thread saying the foreign object theory just doesnt hold water.
06-17-09, 03:27 PM
#114
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Your ports look an awful lot like bdc's, yet no champher. Exlplain please.
I dont think you have come out an said thats what caused the issue here, but it sure seems like your going down that road.
So, comparing apples to apples, where is the champher on your port. They look very very similar.
Are you sayin that the port in question is flawed? How is yours different?
I dont think you have come out an said thats what caused the issue here, but it sure seems like your going down that road.
So, comparing apples to apples, where is the champher on your port. They look very very similar.
Are you sayin that the port in question is flawed? How is yours different?
The rotor is continuing to rotate as the seal gets closer to the closing edge, as it does less of the seal is left hanging and the scissor effect takes place before the very end of the side seal comes into contact with the closing edge. Look at the factory ports, they are angled for a reason. When the port is done improperly not enough of the seal is supported causing the very small piece of the seal to gradually get filed down, and then chip off and break away over time. This is not arm chair engineering, this comes from experience. If you search my posts you will see my responses/advice come from experience and I often disagree with our community engineers.
Take the time to very very slowy rotate a rotor on an eshaft sitting on a iron with a stat gear in place, seriously it should become clear. With stock ports or correctly ported irons it is a little harder to grasp. Though, the seals are spring loaded the trailing edge will still drop into the intake port, if the closing edge of the port is shaped incorrectly this is the result you have.
If your opinion isnt changed by what you have seen/read in this thread it will never change. Hopefully you will never make the porting mistake and have your "opinion" changed the hard way. Its a fine line as to what will fly, and what wont. Sorry we had to go thru all the bullshit, but you have to look at how you came across on here. You have a lot of experienced people in this thread saying the foreign object theory just doesnt hold water.
Take the time to very very slowy rotate a rotor on an eshaft sitting on a iron with a stat gear in place, seriously it should become clear. With stock ports or correctly ported irons it is a little harder to grasp. Though, the seals are spring loaded the trailing edge will still drop into the intake port, if the closing edge of the port is shaped incorrectly this is the result you have.
If your opinion isnt changed by what you have seen/read in this thread it will never change. Hopefully you will never make the porting mistake and have your "opinion" changed the hard way. Its a fine line as to what will fly, and what wont. Sorry we had to go thru all the bullshit, but you have to look at how you came across on here. You have a lot of experienced people in this thread saying the foreign object theory just doesnt hold water.
06-17-09, 04:47 PM
#115
I assume you are referring to the primary port on my website?
2 things are different, the closing edge of my port is not as wide and it is also beveled(it is just a safety step I take).
Like I said, it is a fine line what will fly and what wont, I had to learn. Im not saying BDC does bad porting, he is one of the reasons I put as much time into porting as I do as my customers want to see the shine if it is beneficial or not.
Either way, the ports you are seeing are about 2-3 years old, the ports I do now have a more sharp radius where the opening/closing edge meet and the closing edge has more of the angle I am referring too. I still prefer to bevel the edge just as an added means of safety.
2 things are different, the closing edge of my port is not as wide and it is also beveled(it is just a safety step I take).
Like I said, it is a fine line what will fly and what wont, I had to learn. Im not saying BDC does bad porting, he is one of the reasons I put as much time into porting as I do as my customers want to see the shine if it is beneficial or not
.Either way, the ports you are seeing are about 2-3 years old, the ports I do now have a more sharp radius where the opening/closing edge meet and the closing edge has more of the angle I am referring too. I still prefer to bevel the edge just as an added means of safety.
06-17-09, 04:52 PM
#116
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Tweak’s illustrations show exactly what happened. His last one shows how to correct the closing edge.
Ok, I'm pretty sure I found the answer to what happened to my poor RE. First let me set up the facts I now know.
1. Side seal A and B broke off on the TRAILING ends.
2. The corner seals between A-B, and C-A, were cracked.
3. These are the marks on the primary port (the side where all these happened)
4. The Trailing part of my last surviving side seal C is beveled like so:
This theory goes like this.
The port is too round on the top left, because this port has already been made wider, the tip of the trailing side of the side seal is not supported fully by the plate as it is stock. (I think) That is NOT an issue because of the scissor effect talked about above. But if the bigger port is rounded off smoothly at the top, instead of making a sharp turn, there is a chance that the side seal could hit the corner of the port, before it becomes supported by the support of the scissor effect.
NOW NONE OF THESE LINES OR DRAWING HAVE ANY MATH TO THEM! I have no clue if that is the angle that a side seal passes past a port! Please correct me if I am wrong! I would love to get as close as possible. I just tried to follow the wear makes on the plate with the corner seal and slowly rotate the side seal with it.
I think the two other notches on the ports are from the leading edge of the side seals AFTER they have been considerably shortened from the trailing side being busted off and moving back in the rotor. The leading sides of the busted side seals have noticeable notches in them.
If the port was actually ported MORE on the top left, this would give the scissor effect more time for the scissor effect to happen before the end of the side seal gets to the ports lip. (And not chance for the trailing end of the side seal to crash)
(Lol, crude drawing and really hard angle there, but it shows my point)
1. Side seal A and B broke off on the TRAILING ends.
2. The corner seals between A-B, and C-A, were cracked.
3. These are the marks on the primary port (the side where all these happened)
4. The Trailing part of my last surviving side seal C is beveled like so:
This theory goes like this.
The port is too round on the top left, because this port has already been made wider, the tip of the trailing side of the side seal is not supported fully by the plate as it is stock. (I think) That is NOT an issue because of the scissor effect talked about above. But if the bigger port is rounded off smoothly at the top, instead of making a sharp turn, there is a chance that the side seal could hit the corner of the port, before it becomes supported by the support of the scissor effect.
NOW NONE OF THESE LINES OR DRAWING HAVE ANY MATH TO THEM! I have no clue if that is the angle that a side seal passes past a port! Please correct me if I am wrong! I would love to get as close as possible. I just tried to follow the wear makes on the plate with the corner seal and slowly rotate the side seal with it.
I think the two other notches on the ports are from the leading edge of the side seals AFTER they have been considerably shortened from the trailing side being busted off and moving back in the rotor. The leading sides of the busted side seals have noticeable notches in them.
If the port was actually ported MORE on the top left, this would give the scissor effect more time for the scissor effect to happen before the end of the side seal gets to the ports lip. (And not chance for the trailing end of the side seal to crash)
(Lol, crude drawing and really hard angle there, but it shows my point)
I agree with Lynn Hanover, djseven, 13B-RX3, and Tweak.
Barry
06-17-09, 05:03 PM
#117
BDC Motorsports
I received the center housing today and took a closer look at it. I took several photos. Since I'm being accused of doing a bad port and since some folks that have posted on this thread are flat-out ignoring all other factors of the failure, I decided to include photos of the primary ports from my center plate (from my red Turbo II) as well as a few pictures of all 12 side seals from that same engine to draw a real-world comparison.
I've uploaded them to my site for now. Here's the link:
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/Misc/PrimaryPortStuff/
My digital camera of 4-5 years looks like it's dying so the quality and lighting of some of the photos isn't terrific. I'm attaching and commenting on several of the photos I've taken here.
One more thing while I'm posting this: I'm only responsible to Michael (Tweak) in as much as what he's paid me to do. I'm responsible to nobody else here so I'm not going to get caught up in some 5th grade pissing match with people sitting behind their computers who've never messed with this stuff before. I'm sticking to the facts and they are what they are. Re-iteration of those facts:
- This failure took place per Michael four to six thousand miles after the assembly (although he says he could be mistaken on the mileage)
- It took place on a drifting event day presumably when Michael was banging off the rev limiter. I cannot remember what that rev limiter was set to or in what fashion
- It occurred on that same day when there was a hole in his intake coupler
- It also happened on the same day when the car was being run hard after having a turbocharger change without having the boost/fuel curves re-tuned (I certainly didn't re-do it due to geographical difficulty and from what I recall the wideband in his car I determined to be inaccurate as compared to mine)
- Massive sections of the side seals were broken including several corner seals (broken in half as seen in his own posted pictures)
- Crispeed asked Michael what he clearanced his side seals to but was never answered
- I did not build this engine; Per its construction, all I did was port the two secondary ports, the two primary ports, and balanced his rotating assembly
- This is the same general primary port I do on all of the housings I port for myself, my local guys, and my customers and none of them have failed over the course of several years in the manner that's being suggested
- There was no indication of a compression problem when I was there in Yakima, WA during the week of Oct 3rd - 6th, 2008. If there was, I wouldn't have wasted both of our time attempting to tune the car and I would've told him to keep his tuning money
- After many hours of fixing other mechanical issues on the car, it was finally able to be run hard and was run hard for at-least a couple of hours during a nightly tuning session -- Again, no failures, no indication of a problem, not a thing
A problem with too large of an intake port (almost invariably a secondary port and not a primary port) producing filed off and broken side seals on their leading edges evidences itself immediately. It's an over time, very short-term event but nowhere near to the degree that this engine ran and subsequently failed (several months). It occurs on the secondaries when they're lengthened top to bottom and when the opening edge closest to the square ring land is ground out to the point where the side seal track is completely exposed to the port bowl. The leading edge of the side seal becomes unsupported [b]by a substantial percentage of its length[/b and, being spring-loaded, starts to push itself out at an angle, striking the closing (top) edge of the port and at best carving the bottom, leading edge of that side seal out into a rounded shape or at worst breaking a section of itself off. To say that a primary port like mine, whose length is substantially shorter, who's opening edge still supports the side seal, is just plain idiotic.
The primary ports on my T2 are nearly identical to Michael's. The photos below show it. The side seals I'm using are about 5 years old. IIRC, I replaced them with new ones and clearanced them to 0.0025" somewhere around summer-time 2004 when it first became a half-bridgeport. This motor has been through hell and back countless times with as much as 24+psi of boost with a full T4, T70 turbo being pounded through it. The pictures of all 12 of them, with their compression chamber sides facing up, will show that none of them have broken, or been chamfered on the side edges due to some "trailing edge" wear, or anything of the sort. Have a look for yourself.
While I still don't know what happened, I think it's disingenuous at best to focus on just a primary port and foolish at worst to completely and totally disregard all other facts as many of you in this thread have done.
DJSeven, while I'm on the subject, I went ahead and took the photo of your primary port off the front page of your website and photo-shopped it into its own jpeg. I'll upload it in a bit and attach it here. Compared to both the primary port on my Turbo II as well as Michael's, yours is considerably wider and has the same closing (top) edge. If mine causes a problem per the very theory you're also pushing, then yours would cause this same alleged issue as well and with more prevalence.
Photos on the next post.
I've uploaded them to my site for now. Here's the link:
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/v/Misc/PrimaryPortStuff/
My digital camera of 4-5 years looks like it's dying so the quality and lighting of some of the photos isn't terrific. I'm attaching and commenting on several of the photos I've taken here.
One more thing while I'm posting this: I'm only responsible to Michael (Tweak) in as much as what he's paid me to do. I'm responsible to nobody else here so I'm not going to get caught up in some 5th grade pissing match with people sitting behind their computers who've never messed with this stuff before. I'm sticking to the facts and they are what they are. Re-iteration of those facts:
- This failure took place per Michael four to six thousand miles after the assembly (although he says he could be mistaken on the mileage)
- It took place on a drifting event day presumably when Michael was banging off the rev limiter. I cannot remember what that rev limiter was set to or in what fashion
- It occurred on that same day when there was a hole in his intake coupler
- It also happened on the same day when the car was being run hard after having a turbocharger change without having the boost/fuel curves re-tuned (I certainly didn't re-do it due to geographical difficulty and from what I recall the wideband in his car I determined to be inaccurate as compared to mine)
- Massive sections of the side seals were broken including several corner seals (broken in half as seen in his own posted pictures)
- Crispeed asked Michael what he clearanced his side seals to but was never answered
- I did not build this engine; Per its construction, all I did was port the two secondary ports, the two primary ports, and balanced his rotating assembly
- This is the same general primary port I do on all of the housings I port for myself, my local guys, and my customers and none of them have failed over the course of several years in the manner that's being suggested
- There was no indication of a compression problem when I was there in Yakima, WA during the week of Oct 3rd - 6th, 2008. If there was, I wouldn't have wasted both of our time attempting to tune the car and I would've told him to keep his tuning money
- After many hours of fixing other mechanical issues on the car, it was finally able to be run hard and was run hard for at-least a couple of hours during a nightly tuning session -- Again, no failures, no indication of a problem, not a thing
A problem with too large of an intake port (almost invariably a secondary port and not a primary port) producing filed off and broken side seals on their leading edges evidences itself immediately. It's an over time, very short-term event but nowhere near to the degree that this engine ran and subsequently failed (several months). It occurs on the secondaries when they're lengthened top to bottom and when the opening edge closest to the square ring land is ground out to the point where the side seal track is completely exposed to the port bowl. The leading edge of the side seal becomes unsupported [b]by a substantial percentage of its length[/b and, being spring-loaded, starts to push itself out at an angle, striking the closing (top) edge of the port and at best carving the bottom, leading edge of that side seal out into a rounded shape or at worst breaking a section of itself off. To say that a primary port like mine, whose length is substantially shorter, who's opening edge still supports the side seal, is just plain idiotic.
The primary ports on my T2 are nearly identical to Michael's. The photos below show it. The side seals I'm using are about 5 years old. IIRC, I replaced them with new ones and clearanced them to 0.0025" somewhere around summer-time 2004 when it first became a half-bridgeport. This motor has been through hell and back countless times with as much as 24+psi of boost with a full T4, T70 turbo being pounded through it. The pictures of all 12 of them, with their compression chamber sides facing up, will show that none of them have broken, or been chamfered on the side edges due to some "trailing edge" wear, or anything of the sort. Have a look for yourself.
While I still don't know what happened, I think it's disingenuous at best to focus on just a primary port and foolish at worst to completely and totally disregard all other facts as many of you in this thread have done.
DJSeven, while I'm on the subject, I went ahead and took the photo of your primary port off the front page of your website and photo-shopped it into its own jpeg. I'll upload it in a bit and attach it here. Compared to both the primary port on my Turbo II as well as Michael's, yours is considerably wider and has the same closing (top) edge. If mine causes a problem per the very theory you're also pushing, then yours would cause this same alleged issue as well and with more prevalence.
Photos on the next post.
06-17-09, 05:11 PM
#120
BDC Motorsports
My 12 side seals
After 5 years with the same primary ports and having had 10+psi more boost crammed into it countless times more, why aren't any of mine broken let alone worn down? Where's my broken corner seals?
06-17-09, 06:13 PM
#121
Here is an old pic of one of my primary ports, this picture angle gives you a much clearer idea of the difference in our ports. This would be the same template used on the pic that is on my website but just front a different angle.
I had this happen before and it took about 2k miles before the problem made itself clear. Unfortunately I dont have pics so believe me if you want. Several others n this thread have had this exact thing occur, with near identical results
I had this happen before and it took about 2k miles before the problem made itself clear. Unfortunately I dont have pics so believe me if you want. Several others n this thread have had this exact thing occur, with near identical results
06-18-09, 07:21 AM
#123
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Brian, my being an old aircraft mechanic we had a policy of finding the “root cause” of all problems. This was done not to assess blame and insult character but to keep it from happening again.
Most of our aircraft problems were the results of “improvements” that conflicted with other modifications as power and reliability were improved.
Even manufactures like GE, Allison (later Rolls Royce), and Pratt & Whitney had this happen to them. The only difference was that you didn’t just pull off to the side of the road when you had a failure!
We are all ”Brians” (or would like to be), experimenting with new ideas, modifying parts, looking for that magic solution that will cure all our Rotary problems and make HP effortlessly.
We need to solve problems together.
Brian, keep fighting the good fight.
Barry
Most of our aircraft problems were the results of “improvements” that conflicted with other modifications as power and reliability were improved.
Even manufactures like GE, Allison (later Rolls Royce), and Pratt & Whitney had this happen to them. The only difference was that you didn’t just pull off to the side of the road when you had a failure!
We are all ”Brians” (or would like to be), experimenting with new ideas, modifying parts, looking for that magic solution that will cure all our Rotary problems and make HP effortlessly.
We need to solve problems together.
Brian, keep fighting the good fight.
Barry
