water injection... optimizing jet location
#51
Rotor Head Extreme
iTrader: (8)
Originally Posted by dubulup
the ideal failure avoidance...doesn't light up LEDS if something fails, it takes action.
I believe the "action" of an electronic BOV (some might call Charge Relief) has some flaws.
1) WOT, venting charge (dropping boost) will trick the boost controller and could damage a turbo due to over revving. Differential Equations says, once your charge relief valve is flowing its maximum pressure, the turbo (if strong enough) will then again begin to increase manifold pressure. Now, with no water to cool that extremely overheated charge, on that aggressive tune...my bet is on KaBoom.
I believe the "action" of an electronic BOV (some might call Charge Relief) has some flaws.
1) WOT, venting charge (dropping boost) will trick the boost controller and could damage a turbo due to over revving. Differential Equations says, once your charge relief valve is flowing its maximum pressure, the turbo (if strong enough) will then again begin to increase manifold pressure. Now, with no water to cool that extremely overheated charge, on that aggressive tune...my bet is on KaBoom.
I'm not following the above statement, the pump and accumulator will in a way regulate the pressure...are you going to install a regulator (usually requires a return line to "regulate") just to monitor pressure in the cabin so the gauge can open the electronic BOV??
and don't like the example given
Obviously you can't please everyone. As I said earlier my set-up has been working reliably for over a 1yr and 1/2.
If you tune with 100psi of water mixed with fuel, and the system waits to "protect" at 40psi (or any other significant drop), on an aggressive tune, again my bet is on KaBoom. Water pressure will determine the flow rate of the nozzles. The only line that is under pressure the entire time would be the line leading up to the solenoid. So if the pressure drops in that line...the reservoir is empty, a high pressure line has become detached, the pump has failed, or accumulator is failing to hold pressure. In some cases the result will be the pump running dry, endlessly. Now, at any throttle position you are either venting air (after IC) or your engine is breathing un-filter air.
You are misunderstanding my set-up. I have two solenoids. At 100psi, if both are activated, each solenoid is only getting 50psi each. The regulator would be put in the divided line and not the main line for quicker response. You would always see 100psi with the system not opening but as soon as both solenoid opens, the pressure would quicky lower to 50psi between the two. Then once you get to 40psi the fail safe kicks in. So the reality is it would only be a 10psi drop before the fail safe kicked in. There are guys driving there cars right now with no filters on there turbo inlets. It would be really hard for something to fly up into that small 1/2-3/4" blow off valve discharge hole. Now as far as an aggressive tune, simple solution never tune to the extreme. You should always leave yourself some lea-way just like Mazda did by tuning to such a rich A/F ratio. Also some water spraying is better than none at all. I've had my pump completely run dry but there was still pressurized water in between the accumulator and solenoids which keeps the system operational. Sure the system looses pressure, the flow will also decrease some but not much. I activated my system with the pump disconnected and watched the water spray for over 1min with good amounts of flow and spray. Anyway you look at it, that cheap insurance.
Last edited by t-von; 01-14-06 at 02:47 PM.
#52
Cant be bothered anymore
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Norwich UK
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Originally Posted by twokrx7
Guys,
Did we ever uncover any definitive answer about the optimum location to inject??
I have not spent time on the WI forum to see if there is a universally accepted optimum location so Howard or someone else please chime in and let us know what if anything was learned.
Did we ever uncover any definitive answer about the optimum location to inject??
I have not spent time on the WI forum to see if there is a universally accepted optimum location so Howard or someone else please chime in and let us know what if anything was learned.
????????? Also how do people feel about multiple nozzles. Since reding this i have altererd my ideas about the ratio of water. I have seen ratios of 20% banded about by RICE from time to time but i have seen the mention of 25% on this thread. For more effective charge cooling why not just add an extra chemical ie methanol or as Bill has said on numerious occations a third acetone !!! I still believe pre turbo is the way but i am still struggling with the facts. Where is Rice when you need him
Scott
#53
The ratio depends on a lot of factors, so the easiest way is to work out how much you are leaning off the fuel and replace that will water. So if you are going from 11:1 to 13:1 that is a 20% enleanment which you replace with water.
The reality is more complex, but as a rule of thumb it works fine. Or you can play with the turbo calculator on not2fast and see the first order changes to inlet temperature.
If you ever get over my way buy me a pint and I can go through all the calculations :-)
The reality is more complex, but as a rule of thumb it works fine. Or you can play with the turbo calculator on not2fast and see the first order changes to inlet temperature.
If you ever get over my way buy me a pint and I can go through all the calculations :-)
#54
Rotor Head Extreme
iTrader: (8)
Originally Posted by t-von
Regulator isn't needed.
Now I see were all the confusion is comming from. dubulup I now understand what you were saying about the "regulator". What I really mean is I will use a fuel pressure "sender" to moniter the water pressure. Not a "regulator"! Sorry guys. The sender would send the pressure signal to my digital gauge and the gauge would activate and send the ground signal to the electronic blow off valve at 40psi and below venting boost pressure. I hope that's a much more clear explanation.
Last edited by t-von; 01-14-06 at 06:48 PM.