FD3SR1

ok i know a t3 is smaller then a t4 and a t88 is biger then a t78 but what about all the other ones like apex-i's rx-6 hks to4r 0r s? my ? is what are all the other sizes good for and where do they fall into order from smallest to largest. I have done some research on the different sizes and what they are good for but i would like a post that narrows it down for people and if i knew the info i would have just done it my self but i dont. so if someone could help me out i would appreciate it alot!
Thanks in advance to people who contribute to the info. on this post!

RETed

Did a search?


-Ted

Jon Goodwin

Ted... can you not get off your high horse?? If you have some info that could help this be a better thread, that would be great.

I don´t have any figures for you mate, but i reckon it´s a good idea to setup a thread which would serve to inform others. Start off by posting what you have researched already.

John
88 GT-R

RETed

You know what, go **** yourself.
I don't need to condescending crap from you.

I mentioned search, because I recently covered this.
If you do a search (hell with my nick in it to narrow it down), you would've came across this...

https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/turbo-question-334746/

It's all covered there.
And I don't feel like retyping the who godamn thing.

Look, I even did the search for you...lazy bastards.


-Ted

Jon Goodwin

Cheers for the thread mate, interesting info there. It´s great being civil...

John
88 GT-R

mark57

I checked out your turbo thread and on your last comment, that's exactly what I had to do - change the hot side of my Turbonetics T66 P-trim from 0.96 to 0.84 A/R. That change made the turbo way more streetable and fun by bringing the power on much sooner. Otherwise, the power was too high up in the RPMs to get at and when it did come on, it was explosive. But, I'm still running a built 2mm stockport engine. If I ever get around to putting in my 3mm streetport, it might do well with the 0.96 on the street being that the engine is freed up.

Your thoughts on that?

FD3SR1

Garrett turbo FAMILY sizes
T25 < T28 < T3 < T04 (T04B < T04E < TA45)

Garrett GT-series FAMILY sizes
GT25 < GT28 < GT30 < GT35 < GT40 < GT42/45

Mitsubishi turbo FAMILY sizes
TD04 < TD05 < TD06 < T67 (hybrid TD07 and TD06) < TD07 < T78 (hybrid TD08 and TD07) < T88 (or TD08)

For 13B applications, we're really only concerned about Garrett T04 and Mitsubishi TD06 models and larger, for single turbo applications.

Garrett T04B (compressor) models
S-trim < V-trim < H-trim < 60-1 (Turbonetics calls it a T04B family, although others call it a T04E family)

Garrett T04E (compressor) models
"46" trim < "50" trim < "57" trim < "60" trim

Turbonetics (compressor) models
T58 (TS04) < T61 < T64 < T66 < T70 < T72 < T76

Now that you're thoroughly confused, other manufacturers use different nomenclature for their turbo models. There seems to be a current trend to use compressor wheel (major) diameter for turbo (compressor) models. Thus, a "PT67" is a 67mm compressor wheel, but it's supposed to be the same size as a Turbonetics T66 - go figure.

Then there's the HKS stuff, which they like to make their own models names - T04S (not to be confused with the TS04), T04R, T04Z, T51R (the T51R Kai series is based on a Garrertt GT42).

It's very hard to compare turbos across different manufacturers.
Just to give a loose idea of specific turbo capabilities...

Garrett T04B V-trim - 300hp
Garrett T04B H-trim - 350hp
Garrett T04B 60-1 - 400hp
Garrett T04E "60" trim - 400hp
Garrett GT3540 (GT35 turbine / GT40 compressor hybrid, BB center) - 400hp
Garrett GT40 - 500hp
Garrett GT42/45 - 600hp+
Mitsubishi TD06 - 400hp
Mitsubishi T78 - 500hp
Mitsubishi T88 - 600hp+
Turbonetics T58 / TS04 - 400hp
Turbonetics T66 - 500hp
Turbonetics T72 - 600hp
All numbers are at the wheels on a DynoJet and on pump gas (92 pctane).

I haven't even covered the A'PEXi (IHI), Blitz (KKK), and others...


-Ted

FD3SR1

what about spool rates and full boost rpm?
like i said i want to have one post so all the people old and new can look at it and see what would be best for the performance they are looking for, autox drag, racing, street ect.

FD3SR1

also what psi do they make those number and when do they max out their efficiency.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

If I ever get around to putting in my 3mm streetport, it might do well with the 0.96 on the street being that the engine is freed up.

I think you will spool better w/ 2mm seals judging from the blowby I have seen on 3mm seal rotor housings. Or was that you already had a 3mm streetport ready to go into the car?

Maxthe7man

I agree with this... None of the 3mm motors I have ever seen compression tested worth a crap , the highest I have seen is 80 psi. Even my 200,000 km 2mm n/a makes more compression than all the 3mm motors the local guys here have tested. More blowby, less exhaust gases, less heat..
I might add that as you port that motor, you will find that you can increase the hot side, to increase topend, but you will gain the spool of the smaller a/r turbines, everytime I ported my motor, my spool dropped considerably. Your powerband gets wider with porting and larger a/r turbines.
You have to set your goals though, and determine what fuel , and purpose you have in mind.. Don't get a TA51 if you want 275 hp and run regular gas...Max

blueskaterboy

maybe its your destiny to compile this. it would certainly be helpful.



3mm seals are worthless.

RETed

Garrett turbos have several turbine A/R options.
It's the turbine A/R that actually dictates powerband.
The above compiled list I made was more for compressor housing sizes, and it kinda ignores turbine A/R.


-Ted

RETed

Garrett turbo compressor maps are easily found.
It's these compressor maps which will tell you efficiency ranges.
It's next to impossible to find Mitsubishi ones - I've never seen one.


-Ted

mark57

Rotary Performance builds incredible 3mm streetport engines; I've seen and driven them and I bought one for myself. Chris Ott is the man to see for engines. Their engines don't break. They're the only guys I know of that put your engine onto their crappy-looking engine stand and hook it up to a Haltech, a radiator, a fuel tank, and a load and run them in for a day or so.

So, I had my JDM engine rebuilt retaining the 2mm stockport and it's in the car - my OEM engine w/ 83K mi. was reworked into a 3mm streetport. It's sitting on the shelf and is a spare. The 2mm made 402 WHP on their dyno with the 0.96.

Everyone in my area that doesn't have an RP engine usually isn't running.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I agree with this... None of the 3mm motors I have ever seen compression tested worth a crap , the highest I have seen is 80 psi.

Well, my pineapple was 90psi w/ 8.5 rotors, raised exhaust port and 1/2 the cornerseal track gone (overlap!) and a relocated battery, though I'm sure it would have been even better w/ 2mm seals and corner seal rubbers and stock overlap.

3mm seals are worthless.

You might not say that if you had to buy NEW rotors w/ any frequency...

FD3SR1

what kind of boost can you run with the 2mm vs. 3mm? because i would hate to get my turbo kit on and blow the seals off the rotor! if thats posible. what brands of apex seals are the best (not size)?

badfish229

I would do some research on the types of materials the apex is made of. Try to find out how much chamber pressure, vibration, etc. the apex seal can withstand without serious deformation, or breaking. If you were to get a turbo kit, wouldn't the stock seal suffice anyway? I think the late model rotary engines are iron with an electron beam chilled tip. You also could spend the extra dough and invest in ceramic seals.

Maxthe7man

I was just checking the factory spec for the 3mm seals when they were used, the low minimum was 85 psi for the 3mm's, still I have not seen one 3mm motor even make min spec yet, being that the factory spec is 85 psi min, it means that a good 3mm can be built, but appartently the only people who know how to mill the rotors properly is Mazda themselves..
Contrary to popular beleif the overlap in a side port rotary will not effect compression, even a bridgport , the intake closing time is earlier than the 6 port n/a's..
I might try building a 3mm motor sometime down the road, and just place with the machining to get the tolerances right, and see what I can get out of it for cranking pressure, the best motor I had so far was a 2mm built with the new mazda 2 piece seal..Max

FD3SR1

what psi did you see out of the 2 piece oe seals?

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Contrary to popular beleif the overlap in a side port rotary will not effect compression, even a bridgport , the intake closing time is earlier than the 6 port n/a's..

Good to know! I had assumed the intake runner wouldn't realize as much velocity cranking when there is a pathway open to the exhaust chamber/port (less vacuum/velocity at the intake port itself) and so the amount of total ingestion would be lower. Kinda like trying to comp test w/ throttle closed vs open.

I was just checking the factory spec for the 3mm seals when they were used, the low minimum was 85 psi for the 3mm's, still I have not seen one 3mm motor even make min spec yet, being that the factory spec is 85 psi min, it means that a good 3mm can be built, but appartently the only people who know how to mill the rotors properly is Mazda themselves..

Really? and the factory 3mm seal engines are higher compression than my 8.5 rotors...

I was just looking for even bounces on my cold engine, but I swear I saw 90psi on all faces in the rear and 90psi on the one working face in the front. Yeah, I blew it.

But this engine did feel really well sealed.

Perhaps too well...

but appartently the only people who know how to mill the rotors properly is Mazda themselves..

Perhaps!!!

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

the intake closing time is earlier than the 6 port n/a's..

Actually, wouldn't the 4 port have later closing since the 6-port aux are closed off at the plate during cranking/low rpms.

I know my port is ~12mm later closing than stock TII which is later closing than stock NA excluding the Aux port. My primaries actually ~2mm later than 2ndaries- taking advantage of their velocity or maybe just to point them up more?

The NA stock is sucking just through the tiny primary port since the vacuum/thermo 2ndary plates are shut- better velocity.

My plates all open up together.

But, perhaps the intake runner/port velocity is SOO low at cranking it doesn't make a difference.

Maxthe7man

Yeah if the 6 ports were closed 100% you are right, the bridge shares pretty much the same closing time as SP...
But the port really doesn't effect compression, still I can close and open the 6 ports on the na by hand and no difference on compression..
The compression test is just how well the chamber holds pressure, I don't think any really port dynamics are at work, on piston motor, the cam timing will effect compression pressure, but its also alot possible on a piston motor to increase the cranking pressure to offset the charge lost back through the valves , through a compression ratio change.

Yours could have been a decent 3mm motor, the first I have heard of, besides my own 12a I rebuilt 16 years ago.....When you tears your down, I would be interested in what clearances everything was running at..

To answer FD3Sr1's question, with the 2 piece, they seat really fast, they were making more than a 100 psi in the first 100'kms...I have run 3 different types of seals and so far its my personal feeling they are the best seal..Max

Ryde _Or_Die

Is this with the actual HKS T66? How streetable is it now and what kind of power can you get at 15psi? Also, what RPM do you see 15psi? Does boost drop off at all? Oh and is this the same turbo?

http://store.yahoo.com/cheapturbo/turt66nonbal1.html

mark57

Yeah, that's the compressor map, but my turbo is a Turbonetics T66, not an HKS unit. It's very streetable with the smaller turbine housing - boosting to 16 psi at around 4300 rpm. Previously, the boost came on abruptly at about 4800 rpm on the larger 0.96 turbine housing and it wasn't too useable. Where I went wrong: I didn't go divided, I'm not running a 3 bar map sensor yet, and I oughtta be using my streetport engine. The rest of the driveline would probably need bullet-proofing. I don't abuse the driveline with slam-shifts and flying at 280 mph everywhere as so many others do - I could easily start breaking stuff, esp. with the grippy 275/40/17 rears. Driven smoothly, the car is durable enough and very quick. Two top tuners commented how much they like the setup as they're putting the power down.

The T66 works better at 25 psi and higher. I haven't had issues with with boost loss.

I have witnessed the outrageous street performance of the small Apex RX6 turbo - impressive if street performance is your most important goal.