Thoughts on BW S364 FMW.
10-11-14, 12:54 PM
#1
Thoughts on BW S364 FMW.
I'm considering getting a smaller turbo and running higher boost. I currently have an S372 with the Bullseye turbo Batmowheel and .91ar. I was looking at the s363 or s366 and notice the s364 FWM with the claims of s363 spool and s366 power. Can anyone attest to that or have numbers and graphs to show?
Thank you,
Jose
Thank you,
Jose
10-11-14, 02:00 PM
#2
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I am on the same boat... No real world data on that turbo, not even on a piston engine....
Been waiting for month for some sort of data to make my decision to purchase this turbo or go with the 6466 Precision..!
Been waiting for month for some sort of data to make my decision to purchase this turbo or go with the 6466 Precision..!
10-16-14, 03:04 PM
#4
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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i have an engine customer w this turbo... (on my recommendation) that was on the Beyond Redline dyno two weeks ago. he ended up having ECU issues and as a result the only takeaway was that were were all impressed w the early spool. we never got a chance to fully evaluate it.
i might be able to talk him into allowing me to dyno it on my car in the next few weeks.
i like the turbo on paper...
Howard
i might be able to talk him into allowing me to dyno it on my car in the next few weeks.
i like the turbo on paper...
Howard
10-17-14, 12:00 AM
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i have an engine customer w this turbo... (on my recommendation) that was on the Beyond Redline dyno two weeks ago. he ended up having ECU issues and as a result the only takeaway was that were were all impressed w the early spool. we never got a chance to fully evaluate it. i might be able to talk him into allowing me to dyno it on my car in the next few weeks. i like the turbo on paper... Howard
Time to get the wallet ready again after your test... I know it will do good....
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10-28-14, 08:55 AM
#11
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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"I spoke with Full-Race today they mention to go with the 62 instead because of faster spooling."
while you do not give too much info on your objectives and the conversation w Full Race it might be helpful to make certain the conversation was in rotary context.
the FR site shows someone making 650 w a FMW 62.
this is PISTON POWER.
to get ROTARY POWER you divide by 1.3.
650/ 1.3 = 500.
if you want to run really high boost pressure according to the compressor map:
33 psi boost.... 542
40 psi....550
not many of us want to go there
a more typical rotary boost, 20 psi, produces 512
do keep in mind these max numbers are close to stall speed and carry increasingly high IATs which may be dangerous to engine health. it may be best to leave something on the table.
clearly the FMW is an excellent option for someone wanting to run in the 450 area. especially given the large rotary friendly turbine wheel. (think lower back pressure)
here's the map:
for power objectives in the 500 to 550 area the 64 is the proper choice and i suggest that "spool" is a non issue
the 64 FMW does the same 68 pounds per minute of air at 20 psi boost BUT does it at 64 rather than 60% efficiency. this cooler charge air contains 6.6% more oxygen and when properly burned creates 6.6% more power... that'd be around 30 additional hp at 20 psi. the big plus is the turbo is loafing around 500. loafing is good.
getting back to the "why" of this post....
i suspect there may be some confusion re "spool." do not necessarily directly relate spool or early boost w POWER.
Power relates directly to FLOW.
boost (PSI) and flow/power do not necessarily correlate between different turbos.
FLOW is what you are after as flow directly correlates w power.
flow, or the amount of oxygen molecules available to burn, creates power.
power is what you are after. two turbos might deliver the same boost curve but one turbo might deliver more power because of greater flow.
another turbo might have a slower boost curve but at the same time deliver more early flow or early power.
my point is, focus on flow/power rather than how fast your boost needle rises.
here's a dyno plot of my motor from last Oct. an old school GT4094r. cast compressor wheel 8.1 inches area.
the BW FMW wheel is 6.5 so my turbo should be really laggy, right?
does 403 rwhp (SAE) 411 (STD) at 5000 rpm sound laggy?
it is all about flow...
when deciding on a turbo, pick your power target and match it to the compressor map and skip all the BS about "spool."
howard
while you do not give too much info on your objectives and the conversation w Full Race it might be helpful to make certain the conversation was in rotary context.
the FR site shows someone making 650 w a FMW 62.
this is PISTON POWER.
to get ROTARY POWER you divide by 1.3.
650/ 1.3 = 500.
if you want to run really high boost pressure according to the compressor map:
33 psi boost.... 542
40 psi....550
not many of us want to go there
a more typical rotary boost, 20 psi, produces 512
do keep in mind these max numbers are close to stall speed and carry increasingly high IATs which may be dangerous to engine health. it may be best to leave something on the table.
clearly the FMW is an excellent option for someone wanting to run in the 450 area. especially given the large rotary friendly turbine wheel. (think lower back pressure)
here's the map:
for power objectives in the 500 to 550 area the 64 is the proper choice and i suggest that "spool" is a non issue
the 64 FMW does the same 68 pounds per minute of air at 20 psi boost BUT does it at 64 rather than 60% efficiency. this cooler charge air contains 6.6% more oxygen and when properly burned creates 6.6% more power... that'd be around 30 additional hp at 20 psi. the big plus is the turbo is loafing around 500. loafing is good.
getting back to the "why" of this post....
i suspect there may be some confusion re "spool." do not necessarily directly relate spool or early boost w POWER.
Power relates directly to FLOW.
boost (PSI) and flow/power do not necessarily correlate between different turbos.
FLOW is what you are after as flow directly correlates w power.
flow, or the amount of oxygen molecules available to burn, creates power.
power is what you are after. two turbos might deliver the same boost curve but one turbo might deliver more power because of greater flow.
another turbo might have a slower boost curve but at the same time deliver more early flow or early power.
my point is, focus on flow/power rather than how fast your boost needle rises.
here's a dyno plot of my motor from last Oct. an old school GT4094r. cast compressor wheel 8.1 inches area.
the BW FMW wheel is 6.5 so my turbo should be really laggy, right?
does 403 rwhp (SAE) 411 (STD) at 5000 rpm sound laggy?
it is all about flow...
when deciding on a turbo, pick your power target and match it to the compressor map and skip all the BS about "spool."
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 10-28-14 at 08:57 AM.
10-28-14, 08:15 PM
#13
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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i am a day or so away from resolving my rusted (shut) injectors and once i pull the trigger on a new set should be up and running. the Beyond Redline dyno is 90 miles north and winter is approaching so my car needs to get there pronto before any snow and salt. since i missed the Oct Texas Mile, my immediate plan is to return to the turbo evaluation program. first up is the 4094r since i have comparative data from last year and i will be using a production CPR manifold versus last years semi-cobbled prototype. next up will be the 9180. i have additional plans but given the last multi turbo effort will just... well, you know.
HC
HC
11-10-14, 06:20 PM
#14
I just ordered the s364 fmw with the 1.0ar turbine. I'll be posting back with results as soon as I have them. I also got the 2000° f turbine coating.......I made 537 whp with the s372 billet. I'm hoping for closer to 600whp and better power in the midrange. I am turning up the boost to make the numbers.
11-10-14, 06:39 PM
#15
Borg Warner 62FMW, TII semi-pp, E85. 502whp at 17psi. Full boost by 3250rpm. This is a drift setup and both the spool and transient response are outstanding compared to the T66 turbo used previously, and noticeably better than an S363.
11-12-14, 05:33 AM
#16
So looks like ill be waiting for the s300 sx-e turbo in a 64.4 configuration. The s364fmw I ordered is no longer in production according to full race. I'm first in line.....they will not be out until early 2015. Ill be anxiously waited to see what it can do at 25+ psi.
Jose
Jose
11-13-14, 10:20 PM
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Jose that is all correct. I spoke with jeremy this afternoon about you and will do my best to make sure you get the first 64mm. I also just shot an email to Howard about this, for everyone else interested:
-The new Airwerks turbos designated 'Enhanced S300SX' are intended for competition or racing applications. They are based upon the all-stars of the S300 lineup and use an all new multipad 360degree thrust bearing with latest generation compressor blade aero and compressor housing.
-there is a new 63mm, 64.47mm, 66mm and 69mm (turbo on left) S300SX-E in the pipeline. These have all new compressor housings. 80mm turbine wheel only and 8pad 360 thrust only. (also the new compressor housing has a speed sensor port built in)
-there is a new S200SX-E that is basically an S200SX FMW with updated compressor housing (on the right)
-all legacy S300 turbos will continue on unchanged such as S360, S363, S366.
-S300 62mm FMW continues on unchanged with 6 pad 270 deg thrust, and cupped or flat tip options. This turbo with cupped tip turbine wheel remains one of our most popular 13B turbos (for street cars and competitive drifting / road racing)
-64mm S300SX FMW gets the axe. It will not see production with the 76mm turbine, instead it will be available as an S300SX-E with the 80mm turbine. the engineers determined 76mm turbine is just too small to get max performance from the 64mm compressor (especially on a rotary app) whereas the 62mm FMW is a better match.
hope this helps, have a good night
-The new Airwerks turbos designated 'Enhanced S300SX' are intended for competition or racing applications. They are based upon the all-stars of the S300 lineup and use an all new multipad 360degree thrust bearing with latest generation compressor blade aero and compressor housing.
-there is a new 63mm, 64.47mm, 66mm and 69mm (turbo on left) S300SX-E in the pipeline. These have all new compressor housings. 80mm turbine wheel only and 8pad 360 thrust only. (also the new compressor housing has a speed sensor port built in)
-there is a new S200SX-E that is basically an S200SX FMW with updated compressor housing (on the right)
-all legacy S300 turbos will continue on unchanged such as S360, S363, S366.
-S300 62mm FMW continues on unchanged with 6 pad 270 deg thrust, and cupped or flat tip options. This turbo with cupped tip turbine wheel remains one of our most popular 13B turbos (for street cars and competitive drifting / road racing)
-64mm S300SX FMW gets the axe. It will not see production with the 76mm turbine, instead it will be available as an S300SX-E with the 80mm turbine. the engineers determined 76mm turbine is just too small to get max performance from the 64mm compressor (especially on a rotary app) whereas the 62mm FMW is a better match.
hope this helps, have a good night
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