separating fiction from reality... a couple of days on the DYNO
#76
Rotary Freak
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Wow awsome info HC, I can't wait to see the result I thinking of going single but I am glad click on this post. I going hold out until you give us some good feedback, I am surpired there is so many companys outthere and no one offer this input to Rotary world before it would have make allot of us picking a single turbo system process simple.
Khris
Khris
#77
I'm sorry wha?
I think a very very interesting dyno comp would be the manifold, short vs long. I'm still wondering if I should build a long one like the twins turbo one or a shorty like most. I figured I might give it a shot since a friend of mine knows the owner of redline fairly well. 3 pulls on each just to see if the manifolds make any real big difference.
#78
Acquiring money pits
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Not to add to much fuel to the fire here, and I know this is not a rotary engine, but check out BMW's claims with their new V8 Twin Turbo: http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...gine.html#more
Originally Posted by http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/5series/sedan/2010/showroom/engines/8_cylinder_petrol_engine.html#more
Ability: with the eight-cylinder petrol engine in the BMW 550i you can exploit 300 kW (407 hp) or simply enjoy an impressive 600 Nm as of 1,750 rpm. So what is the secret of the effortless short bursts?
It is the turbochargers in the V between the cylinders. The special, compact design shortens exhaust paths to provide direct responsiveness. The 5.0 seconds in which the BMW 550i accelerates from 0 to 100 km/h are as impressive as the engine's ability to turn any touch of the accelerator into immediate acceleration at any time.
When it comes to utilising energy efficiently, the BMW 5 Series Sedan holds the key: precision. With each combustion process, the piezo injectors pump fuel into the combustion chambers at 200 bar with 400 Nm of pure power being delivered to the crankshaft. It's incredible how so little fuel can manifest itself into so much power.
Now you can accelerate at any time and never have to worry about high levels of fuel consumption.
It is the turbochargers in the V between the cylinders. The special, compact design shortens exhaust paths to provide direct responsiveness. The 5.0 seconds in which the BMW 550i accelerates from 0 to 100 km/h are as impressive as the engine's ability to turn any touch of the accelerator into immediate acceleration at any time.
When it comes to utilising energy efficiently, the BMW 5 Series Sedan holds the key: precision. With each combustion process, the piezo injectors pump fuel into the combustion chambers at 200 bar with 400 Nm of pure power being delivered to the crankshaft. It's incredible how so little fuel can manifest itself into so much power.
Now you can accelerate at any time and never have to worry about high levels of fuel consumption.
#79
YAY! No more smoke!
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Not to add to much fuel to the fire here, and I know this is not a rotary engine, but check out BMW's claims with their new V8 Twin Turbo: http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...gine.html#more
IMHO that's just good marketing. The manifolds are the same size they would have used in a standard configuration. It sounds a bit better though than "In order to get instant response we used EXTREMELY small turbine housings that sacrifice power for spool"
#82
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any specs on those EGT's howard? and where to buy em as im looking to add the dual digital preturbos to my single here soon. cant wait to see the outcome of this little venture.
z
z
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update:
things are taking shape in the intercooler department. it is clear from the following pics that intercooler configuration w my CPR manifold will be different depending on the turbo... if you want to do it right. i don't like bends anywhere. so we are looking for straight shots into the IC.
along those lines the standard new design Pettit IC will work fine w the BW.
with the Garretts a Low-Port design is needed. Pettit is flipping the new design cast end tank and fixturing a down to the rear 5 degrees intake to match up. further Pettit is fabbing a neat short aluminum intermediate tube. we worked over the weekend on this so as to juice the schedule.
things are taking shape in the intercooler department. it is clear from the following pics that intercooler configuration w my CPR manifold will be different depending on the turbo... if you want to do it right. i don't like bends anywhere. so we are looking for straight shots into the IC.
along those lines the standard new design Pettit IC will work fine w the BW.
with the Garretts a Low-Port design is needed. Pettit is flipping the new design cast end tank and fixturing a down to the rear 5 degrees intake to match up. further Pettit is fabbing a neat short aluminum intermediate tube. we worked over the weekend on this so as to juice the schedule.
PS this is some really good stuff, Ive always wanted to see back to back (to back!) comparisons on different turbos with all other systems being equal...
#85
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agreed. if you look at an FD in detail, its a pretty impressive machine. when you look at a BMW in detail, you begin to wonder if these guys even went to engineering school. this "instant response" turbo thing, is the same claim mazda made in 1989, when they redid the turbo II's exhaust manifold.
Bavarian Marketing Works....
Bavarian Marketing Works....
#87
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
I think a very very interesting dyno comp would be the manifold, short vs long. I'm still wondering if I should build a long one like the twins turbo one or a shorty like most. I figured I might give it a shot since a friend of mine knows the owner of redline fairly well. 3 pulls on each just to see if the manifolds make any real big difference.
Casey
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the reason why they make those claims is because of all of this twin scroll goodness
theres also the fact that they use inline liquid intercoolers as well..
#90
I'm sorry wha?
I think a test like this seems a bit more important actually because its something that effects the power a turbo makes.
#91
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
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"I think a test like this seems a bit more important"
i can assure you after building record setting piston engines for 17 years before switching to rotaries i am thoroughly familiar w NA harmonics etc. turbos introduce significantly different factors and i have no interest at this time in exploring areas that i believe to be less productive.
further, i am actually very interested in evaluating turbos as there is probably alot of comparative data to be discovered. as an added bonus i am actually going to do it rather than speculate.
since you consider testing manifolds more important i will look forward to your data.
this thread is about separating fiction (much of which is garage based theories) from reality. i am/will be doing my part. if you want to test your theories re manifolds and provide some real data we all will read it w interest.
finally, just so we are even, i consider my test "a bit more important."
howard
i can assure you after building record setting piston engines for 17 years before switching to rotaries i am thoroughly familiar w NA harmonics etc. turbos introduce significantly different factors and i have no interest at this time in exploring areas that i believe to be less productive.
further, i am actually very interested in evaluating turbos as there is probably alot of comparative data to be discovered. as an added bonus i am actually going to do it rather than speculate.
since you consider testing manifolds more important i will look forward to your data.
this thread is about separating fiction (much of which is garage based theories) from reality. i am/will be doing my part. if you want to test your theories re manifolds and provide some real data we all will read it w interest.
finally, just so we are even, i consider my test "a bit more important."
howard
#93
I'm sorry wha?
Howard I bow to your years of wisdom and your obvious advantage of knowledge and understanding in this subject any day, and your probably right it probably is a more important study, and I hope to get my FD back up and running sooner than later this year and possibly put together a few tests if money so provides.
Its actually thanks to many of your great technical posts that I have gained a greater knowledge on this whole subject and am trying what I am this time around. I'm sure your tests and data as usual will be another great help to this s automotive society and many others.
Maybe "a bit more important" was the wrong choice of words. Maybe I should have said, a test like this would be a bit more enlightening on a subject that seems to debated a fair amount in such applications and would help put some of those debates to rest.
If I can indeed afford to spend as much time as you on a dyno with as much gear, I will be more than happy to share all the data I come across, but it doesn't seem like a bad chance for you to do it if you are being offered manifolds?
Its actually thanks to many of your great technical posts that I have gained a greater knowledge on this whole subject and am trying what I am this time around. I'm sure your tests and data as usual will be another great help to this s automotive society and many others.
Maybe "a bit more important" was the wrong choice of words. Maybe I should have said, a test like this would be a bit more enlightening on a subject that seems to debated a fair amount in such applications and would help put some of those debates to rest.
If I can indeed afford to spend as much time as you on a dyno with as much gear, I will be more than happy to share all the data I come across, but it doesn't seem like a bad chance for you to do it if you are being offered manifolds?
"I think a test like this seems a bit more important"
i can assure you after building record setting piston engines for 17 years before switching to rotaries i am thoroughly familiar w NA harmonics etc. turbos introduce significantly different factors and i have no interest at this time in exploring areas that i believe to be less productive.
further, i am actually very interested in evaluating turbos as there is probably alot of comparative data to be discovered. as an added bonus i am actually going to do it rather than speculate.
since you consider testing manifolds more important i will look forward to your data.
this thread is about separating fiction (much of which is garage based theories) from reality. i am/will be doing my part. if you want to test your theories re manifolds and provide some real data we all will read it w interest.
finally, just so we are even, i consider my test "a bit more important."
howard
i can assure you after building record setting piston engines for 17 years before switching to rotaries i am thoroughly familiar w NA harmonics etc. turbos introduce significantly different factors and i have no interest at this time in exploring areas that i believe to be less productive.
further, i am actually very interested in evaluating turbos as there is probably alot of comparative data to be discovered. as an added bonus i am actually going to do it rather than speculate.
since you consider testing manifolds more important i will look forward to your data.
this thread is about separating fiction (much of which is garage based theories) from reality. i am/will be doing my part. if you want to test your theories re manifolds and provide some real data we all will read it w interest.
finally, just so we are even, i consider my test "a bit more important."
howard
#94
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
i started deleting posts re manifolds in this thread as it is off topic to my project. then i realised that it was me that was the primary door opener on the manifolds... oooops.
so all posts are restored. this thread is about turbos and that will become apparent as we actually get into testing. i have reached my conclusions on manifold design and they are embodied in my manifold. i absolutely believe there are many facets to optimising a manifold but i think another thread would be the ticket.
my manifold may work or not but it is my best current thinking and my interest in my project is turbos.
my apologies to all.
howard
so all posts are restored. this thread is about turbos and that will become apparent as we actually get into testing. i have reached my conclusions on manifold design and they are embodied in my manifold. i absolutely believe there are many facets to optimising a manifold but i think another thread would be the ticket.
my manifold may work or not but it is my best current thinking and my interest in my project is turbos.
my apologies to all.
howard
#98
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
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things are moving forward daily on the turbo comparison. i have an extensive new-mods list for 2010. the engine and T56 trans goes in today and the car will be trailered to Beyond Redline where some final fitting will be done on the downpipes (two needed as the BW has a 4 inch V band outlet) and IC tubes. once finished it will be re-trailered back home for the final finish and then the dyno session.
in an effort to really wring out the turbos i have uprated my FJO HD AI meth system from two 700 to two 1000 CC injectors. i will be running 93 octane and 2000 CC/Min of meth. i also have switched from stock trailing coils to 2 MSD 8207 coils.
i have yet to lay my hands on a GT3582r. it does have to have whatever Sean feels is the proper turbine housing and if it doesn't have the Garrett ported shroud i will just switch it w the GT3574 ported shroud.
i do have a friend in the Green Bay area that has one on his FD and probably can use it if it has the right backend.
i may call my Garrett contact to see if he can find a 2011 GT35 w a billet compressor that i know must surely exist. i would bet money it will be at SEMA. wouldn't that be fun?
hc
in an effort to really wring out the turbos i have uprated my FJO HD AI meth system from two 700 to two 1000 CC injectors. i will be running 93 octane and 2000 CC/Min of meth. i also have switched from stock trailing coils to 2 MSD 8207 coils.
i have yet to lay my hands on a GT3582r. it does have to have whatever Sean feels is the proper turbine housing and if it doesn't have the Garrett ported shroud i will just switch it w the GT3574 ported shroud.
i do have a friend in the Green Bay area that has one on his FD and probably can use it if it has the right backend.
i may call my Garrett contact to see if he can find a 2011 GT35 w a billet compressor that i know must surely exist. i would bet money it will be at SEMA. wouldn't that be fun?
hc