separating fiction from reality... a couple of days on the DYNO
05-14-10, 08:53 PM
#1
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
separating fiction from reality... a couple of days on the DYNO
when the green flag drops the bullshit stops...
one of the more seasoned racing addages. and true.
so we are going to drop the green flag on turbos in Titletown (that's Green Bay, Wi home of the World Champion Green Bay Packers) and the home of what i think is an equally accomplished tuner shop: Beyond Redline.
Luke Stubbs is the resident genius.
you don't know Luke. i know Luke, many hundreds of 4th geat blasts on his eddy current 1500 hp DynoJet dyno. (he just made a world record 544 SAE rwhp from a Genesis coupe) all in a days work for the Lukester.
Luke knows rotaries.
here's Luke (left) w one of my motor customers and his lovely wife (right) after 4 hours on the rollers. smiles all around in Titletown. BTW, at the lunch
break we buzzed over to Lambeau Field. oooops, he's a Vikings fan. oh well.
so here's the plan...
wring out a bunch of turbos.
one CPR motor. one dyno. one set of systems. one, well two, tuners. Luke and Howard. more than one day.
turbos to be evaluated are the ones that currently interest me:
GT3582r.
ubiquitous. Garrett published a new map.... wow looks like it will do 70 pounds w the ported shroud! so what will it do on pump and 1400 CC of meth?
here's the NEW killer compressor map
the thing that bugs me is the small turbine V compressor area. compressor 6.386 sq inches, turbine 5.171 sq inches or 80.9%.
since i digitally log backpressure it will be really interesting to see what we have.
GT3574
features the aforementioned GT35 compressor wheel, w a journal bearing and a much larger turbine wheel.... 5.89 sq inches or 92% of the compressor. let's really find out about journal bearing spool V ball bearing and also compare backpressure given the differing hotside wheels.
Borg Warner S300s (363).
there are a bunch of S3XX BWs. this turbo is just a touch smaller than the TO4z. the compressor is 6.946 sq inches V 7.007. the compressor is quite different than the Z as to trim, having a smallish 63 inducer V the TO4z at 66.7. Trim is 52 V 63. smaller Trims promote spool. the turbo can put out over 70 pounds per minute so it should make 550 but have great midrange. that's the theory.
let's see if it happens.
GT4094r
this is the turbo i plan to run at the Texas Mile. i figure i need 600 ponies to make 200 mph. the turbo is really a Garrett hybrid having a compressor very close to a GT42 but with smaller packaging. packaging was a major consideration as i designed my CPR manifold. i didn't want the turbo in front of the motor. i wanted short runners and be able to have a cold air box running a 7 by 9 K&N filter. engine compartment air is 150-160 degrees and if you are sucking it you are really asking for trouble. outside air is the only way to go and the turbo has to be in the right spot to get outside air. the GT4094 has 8.175 sq inches of compressor area (GT4294 8.384) and 6.423 turbine or 78.5%. so backpressure will be interesting. the turbo makes 80 pounds of air so will do 600 SAE. spool will also be interesting.
my new manifold will be used on all the turbos to keep things consistant. it is short, has few bends, is fully divided all the way to one tenth of an inch to the Tial 60 MM wastegate piston.
that's the plan. all i have to do is finish my T56 bolt in, re-assemble my motor, fab a downpipe, swap in my new Pettit Trak Pro coil overs and i am ready for a few days in Green Bay.
let's hope we learn something. fun fun fun
howard
one of the more seasoned racing addages. and true.
so we are going to drop the green flag on turbos in Titletown (that's Green Bay, Wi home of the World Champion Green Bay Packers) and the home of what i think is an equally accomplished tuner shop: Beyond Redline.
Luke Stubbs is the resident genius.
you don't know Luke. i know Luke, many hundreds of 4th geat blasts on his eddy current 1500 hp DynoJet dyno. (he just made a world record 544 SAE rwhp from a Genesis coupe) all in a days work for the Lukester.
Luke knows rotaries.
here's Luke (left) w one of my motor customers and his lovely wife (right) after 4 hours on the rollers. smiles all around in Titletown. BTW, at the lunch
break we buzzed over to Lambeau Field. oooops, he's a Vikings fan. oh well.
so here's the plan...
wring out a bunch of turbos.
one CPR motor. one dyno. one set of systems. one, well two, tuners. Luke and Howard. more than one day.
turbos to be evaluated are the ones that currently interest me:
GT3582r.
ubiquitous. Garrett published a new map.... wow looks like it will do 70 pounds w the ported shroud! so what will it do on pump and 1400 CC of meth?
here's the NEW killer compressor map
the thing that bugs me is the small turbine V compressor area. compressor 6.386 sq inches, turbine 5.171 sq inches or 80.9%.
since i digitally log backpressure it will be really interesting to see what we have.
GT3574
features the aforementioned GT35 compressor wheel, w a journal bearing and a much larger turbine wheel.... 5.89 sq inches or 92% of the compressor. let's really find out about journal bearing spool V ball bearing and also compare backpressure given the differing hotside wheels.
Borg Warner S300s (363).
there are a bunch of S3XX BWs. this turbo is just a touch smaller than the TO4z. the compressor is 6.946 sq inches V 7.007. the compressor is quite different than the Z as to trim, having a smallish 63 inducer V the TO4z at 66.7. Trim is 52 V 63. smaller Trims promote spool. the turbo can put out over 70 pounds per minute so it should make 550 but have great midrange. that's the theory.
let's see if it happens.
GT4094r
this is the turbo i plan to run at the Texas Mile. i figure i need 600 ponies to make 200 mph. the turbo is really a Garrett hybrid having a compressor very close to a GT42 but with smaller packaging. packaging was a major consideration as i designed my CPR manifold. i didn't want the turbo in front of the motor. i wanted short runners and be able to have a cold air box running a 7 by 9 K&N filter. engine compartment air is 150-160 degrees and if you are sucking it you are really asking for trouble. outside air is the only way to go and the turbo has to be in the right spot to get outside air. the GT4094 has 8.175 sq inches of compressor area (GT4294 8.384) and 6.423 turbine or 78.5%. so backpressure will be interesting. the turbo makes 80 pounds of air so will do 600 SAE. spool will also be interesting.
my new manifold will be used on all the turbos to keep things consistant. it is short, has few bends, is fully divided all the way to one tenth of an inch to the Tial 60 MM wastegate piston.
that's the plan. all i have to do is finish my T56 bolt in, re-assemble my motor, fab a downpipe, swap in my new Pettit Trak Pro coil overs and i am ready for a few days in Green Bay.
let's hope we learn something. fun fun fun
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 05-31-10 at 08:28 PM.
05-14-10, 10:37 PM
#2
Rotary Enthusiast
Will be very interesting to see the results Howard. Thank you for providing so much great information to these forums. I remember reading your FD suspension thread a dozen times over before I decided on anything.
=Benjamin
=Benjamin
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05-15-10, 12:27 PM
#8
YAY! No more smoke!
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Can't wait to see some data!
I was comparing the new 35r map w/ported shroud vs the non-ported and it looks like the compressor is pushing more air at a lower pressure ratio and with more efficiency. Is this right? Could this possibly make a 3574 w/ the ported shroud the killer combo, or would it then become too laggy?
I was comparing the new 35r map w/ported shroud vs the non-ported and it looks like the compressor is pushing more air at a lower pressure ratio and with more efficiency. Is this right? Could this possibly make a 3574 w/ the ported shroud the killer combo, or would it then become too laggy?
05-15-10, 01:25 PM
#9
I don't understand how the ported shroud now makes more power. It used to be my understanding that the ported covers were to broaden the map to prevent compressor surge at the cost of spool and efficiency? Has something changed or? Will you be testing the standard 35R cover as well? It wouldn't take long to swap the covers on the dyno.
thewird
thewird
05-15-10, 02:18 PM
#10
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"when are you planning to come down for the TX Flying Mile."
Charles it would be an absolute delight to meet you. the TM is October 22-24. TexasMile.net.
"3574 w/ the ported shroud "
i exchanged emails w Sean re this friday. i believe, but don't know for sure that his 3574 does use the ported shroud. at any rate the 3574 i test will have it.
"I don't understand how the ported shroud now makes more power." i hear you. i am just posting the new compressor map and note the only diff on the map is the "Ported Shroud" disclosure. FWIW, Enzo250 made around 520 Standard w a GT35 and it does take 70 pounds of air to get it done so there isn't much doubt that the GT35 compressor can make it happen. like you i have always subscribed to the "general wisdom" that ported shrouds don't increase the max delivery but just change it around. the map says Garrett on it and if you look at the non ported shroud maps on Garrett's site they do look inferior.
hc
Charles it would be an absolute delight to meet you. the TM is October 22-24. TexasMile.net.
"3574 w/ the ported shroud "
i exchanged emails w Sean re this friday. i believe, but don't know for sure that his 3574 does use the ported shroud. at any rate the 3574 i test will have it.
"I don't understand how the ported shroud now makes more power." i hear you. i am just posting the new compressor map and note the only diff on the map is the "Ported Shroud" disclosure. FWIW, Enzo250 made around 520 Standard w a GT35 and it does take 70 pounds of air to get it done so there isn't much doubt that the GT35 compressor can make it happen. like you i have always subscribed to the "general wisdom" that ported shrouds don't increase the max delivery but just change it around. the map says Garrett on it and if you look at the non ported shroud maps on Garrett's site they do look inferior.
hc
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 05-15-10 at 02:57 PM.
05-15-10, 03:42 PM
#12
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
you may recall that i designed, built and ran a two TO4E 46 trim setup. i fired it up in 2004 and put about 20,000 miles on it. i went thru 5 iterations of turbo wheels, housings etc and really enjoyed it. it made 507 SAE at 20 psi and is capable of another 50-75 hp at 26 psi. in order to properly tune it i was forced to push the envelope as to instrumentation. i digitally logged backpressure as well as front and rear EGTs etc.
when i made the decision to go single i found i was actually looking forward to designing my own manifold.
i had amassed a file of manifolds over the years and of course took what i liked from the file.
my primary design objectives:
shortest runners possible. i maintain that energy dissipates as you move away from the motor.
as few bends as possible.
situate the turbine ideally as close to the longitudinal center between the rotors.
maintain DIVIDED pulses front and rear as much as possible.
position the turbo so it can use the K&N 7 inch diameter by 9 inches long filter (no restriction above 500 hp)
position the turbo so it sucks ONLY OUTSIDE air. engine compartment air is 150-160 degrees!
position the wastegate so it doesn't become toasted. any wastegate that has the diaphragm part near the exhaust sees an early death.
all manifolds will have EGT bungs and back pressure fittings if desired
here are a few pics of my beta (just a touch on the rough side) manifold
notice the divider to mantain separate pulsing. it is profiled to within a tenth of an inch of the WG piston.
the 2.5 inch wastegate points tube directly (as in zero bends) to the downpipe and enters at a nice blend angle.
the working (meltable) end of the wastegate neatly fits in the airspace that i know Mazda designed just for my manifold. please pardon the ratty engine compartment as this was taken midwinter and after lots of thrashing around fitting things. it will be tuned up shortly. i just wanted to give you an idea of fit.
this manifold will be used for all the dyno testing and depending on how it does will probably be one of the few items i offer at CPR. there are lots of good manifolds offered by others but i thought i would show you mine.
howard
when i made the decision to go single i found i was actually looking forward to designing my own manifold.
i had amassed a file of manifolds over the years and of course took what i liked from the file.
my primary design objectives:
shortest runners possible. i maintain that energy dissipates as you move away from the motor.
as few bends as possible.
situate the turbine ideally as close to the longitudinal center between the rotors.
maintain DIVIDED pulses front and rear as much as possible.
position the turbo so it can use the K&N 7 inch diameter by 9 inches long filter (no restriction above 500 hp)
position the turbo so it sucks ONLY OUTSIDE air. engine compartment air is 150-160 degrees!
position the wastegate so it doesn't become toasted. any wastegate that has the diaphragm part near the exhaust sees an early death.
all manifolds will have EGT bungs and back pressure fittings if desired
here are a few pics of my beta (just a touch on the rough side
) manifold 
notice the divider to mantain separate pulsing. it is profiled to within a tenth of an inch of the WG piston.
the 2.5 inch wastegate points tube directly (as in zero bends) to the downpipe and enters at a nice blend angle.
the working (meltable) end of the wastegate neatly fits in the airspace that i know Mazda designed just for my manifold. please pardon the ratty engine compartment as this was taken midwinter and after lots of thrashing around fitting things. it will be tuned up shortly. i just wanted to give you an idea of fit.
this manifold will be used for all the dyno testing and depending on how it does will probably be one of the few items i offer at CPR. there are lots of good manifolds offered by others but i thought i would show you mine.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 05-31-10 at 08:29 PM.
05-15-10, 07:18 PM
#15
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"Any idea on pricing for the manifold?"
well built custom manifolds generally sell for $900. while i don't currently know my costs i would expect to beat that a fair amount. internet net manifolds sell for $159. you pay your money and takes your choice.
"Can you fit a 4" downpipe with the manifold?"
sure. (loud)
hc
well built custom manifolds generally sell for $900. while i don't currently know my costs i would expect to beat that a fair amount. internet net manifolds sell for $159. you pay your money and takes your choice.
"Can you fit a 4" downpipe with the manifold?"
sure. (loud)
hc
05-15-10, 08:18 PM
#17
05-15-10, 08:34 PM
#18
Rotary Enthusiast
I just got my McMasterCarr order the other week, beautiful material for a great price. Turned out that ordering the straight pipe from onlinemetals.com was much much much cheaper.
In your opinion, is a turbo brace really needed with schedule 10 pipe? We will be running the s475 with a T6 1.10 housing, not exactly light. The only place I could see bolting a brace onto that turbo would be at the oil drain flange, everything else is vband.
=Benjamin
In your opinion, is a turbo brace really needed with schedule 10 pipe? We will be running the s475 with a T6 1.10 housing, not exactly light. The only place I could see bolting a brace onto that turbo would be at the oil drain flange, everything else is vband.
=Benjamin
05-27-10, 08:50 PM
#25
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
it appears things are pretty much on plan.
i just shipped out two customer motors and the next motor that goes together will be mine. the dyno motor. Memorial Day intercedes along w putting the docks, lift and boats in Up North. i expect my motor will be together no later than next Tuesday. in addition the machinist called today and my T56 is finally ready to bolt in. Oh, there are little things like wiring the speedo and backup lights. and doing my downpipe.
i have two turbos ordered... a GT3574 w the Garrett shrouded port and a Borg Warner S300 sx 63. i will need to dig up a GT3582r w the right stuff on it and i have my GT4094r so we should be close to set on turbos.
i will also be running a brand new design Pettit intercooler.
the ducks are lining up and it is going to be fun.
hc
i just shipped out two customer motors and the next motor that goes together will be mine. the dyno motor. Memorial Day intercedes along w putting the docks, lift and boats in Up North. i expect my motor will be together no later than next Tuesday. in addition the machinist called today and my T56 is finally ready to bolt in. Oh, there are little things like wiring the speedo and backup lights. and doing my downpipe.
i have two turbos ordered... a GT3574 w the Garrett shrouded port and a Borg Warner S300 sx 63. i will need to dig up a GT3582r w the right stuff on it and i have my GT4094r so we should be close to set on turbos.
i will also be running a brand new design Pettit intercooler.
the ducks are lining up and it is going to be fun.
hc