separating fiction from reality... a couple of days on the DYNO
04-11-12, 02:44 PM
#851
Ok so now you are going pre turbo..
I was actually looking forward to seeing how the injectors would work. I have been toying with the idea of meth injection myself. I am running 4 1400cc and 4 1600cc injectors. 1400's primary 1600's secondary with seperate rail since i am running the E&J throttle body. This car is street driven and i do drive it around at 12psi on pump gas. The problem is that C16 is $17/gal here.... Methanol is much cheaper and better for the engine so i would rather go that route. My question is this.. could i run 1 rail on pump gas and 1 rail on methanol with seperate fuel systems? How much boost could i really run on just the primary intake ports recieving fuel? You think 10psi is doable? And then have the secondaries kick in with the meth at 10psi up to say 30-35psi? And around how much meth would need to be injected? I know you guys are running 30psi on fd setups with meth injection. But my setup is a little bigger than the average setup. Its a BEP S480 with the race comp housing and a 1.10 T6 turbine with a 87mm turbine wheel rated at 120lb/min. I would appreciate any and all comments and suggestions. Afew pics of the setup.
I was actually looking forward to seeing how the injectors would work. I have been toying with the idea of meth injection myself. I am running 4 1400cc and 4 1600cc injectors. 1400's primary 1600's secondary with seperate rail since i am running the E&J throttle body. This car is street driven and i do drive it around at 12psi on pump gas. The problem is that C16 is $17/gal here.... Methanol is much cheaper and better for the engine so i would rather go that route. My question is this.. could i run 1 rail on pump gas and 1 rail on methanol with seperate fuel systems? How much boost could i really run on just the primary intake ports recieving fuel? You think 10psi is doable? And then have the secondaries kick in with the meth at 10psi up to say 30-35psi? And around how much meth would need to be injected? I know you guys are running 30psi on fd setups with meth injection. But my setup is a little bigger than the average setup. Its a BEP S480 with the race comp housing and a 1.10 T6 turbine with a 87mm turbine wheel rated at 120lb/min. I would appreciate any and all comments and suggestions. Afew pics of the setup.
04-11-12, 04:30 PM
#853
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
St Croix... color me totally envious. Buck Island, The Wall Cheeseburgers in Paradise.
4 1400 CC injectors 5600 gross CCs
85% top duty is 4760
minus lag at 13% is 4141 Net CCs is 1.09 gallons/min is 6.92 lbs/min.
at 10.5 AFR to give you some wiggle room that is 72.6 lbs/min air or 547 rw rotary hp just on the primaries.
yes you sure can run 2 fuel systems. that is exactly what i did and it worked perfectly.
after re-reading your post it appears that you are saying that the primary rail only serves the primary ports? the secondary only serves the secondaries?? i can probably help you if i understand how the manifold functions.
don't they both dump into a common plenum which serves pri and sec?
hc
4 1400 CC injectors 5600 gross CCs
85% top duty is 4760
minus lag at 13% is 4141 Net CCs is 1.09 gallons/min is 6.92 lbs/min.
at 10.5 AFR to give you some wiggle room that is 72.6 lbs/min air or 547 rw rotary hp just on the primaries.
yes you sure can run 2 fuel systems. that is exactly what i did and it worked perfectly.
after re-reading your post it appears that you are saying that the primary rail only serves the primary ports? the secondary only serves the secondaries?? i can probably help you if i understand how the manifold functions.
don't they both dump into a common plenum which serves pri and sec?
hc
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 04-11-12 at 04:32 PM.
04-11-12, 07:01 PM
#854
F'n Newbie...
iTrader: (6)
Now, I'm no expert and I don't claim to be one... However I think it makes sense that, after a certain point of throwing excess fuel into the intakes, you will actually LOSE power due to poor atomization.
I've read elsewhere that if you're going to run Methanol, than you should run ONLY methanol and a LOT of it. But that's more for single purpose drag car applications. If you're going to be using a regular fuel, than pure methanol as an injectant is only going to cause problems (as witnessed by HC's last three years).
I saw a VERY well built car on the dyno about a week ago. The person tuning it (they actually know what they are doing) said that they had just swapped 1600cc injectors into the primary at the request of the owner. By switching from 1000cc primaries to 1600cc primaries the car LOST about 60whp. Going back to the smaller primaries brought that lost horsepower back.
Now, you might ask, how is that possible? How is it that INCREASING the potential fuel delivery will decrease your actual power?? That goes against your calculations, right Howard?
Honestly, it seems pretty simple to me, but I'm not trying to over think it. Atomization. The intake track is only so big, correct? Even if your calculations say that air is passing through the LIM at over 500mph (which is physically incorrect, and laughable) the physical dimensions are still the same. Too much fuel pushed into the air in such an enclosed space will inherently shift from an atomized form, to a liquid form. Think about how rain drops are formed. Same stuff, different application.
Just something for you to think about... "More" isn't always "better"
I've read elsewhere that if you're going to run Methanol, than you should run ONLY methanol and a LOT of it. But that's more for single purpose drag car applications. If you're going to be using a regular fuel, than pure methanol as an injectant is only going to cause problems (as witnessed by HC's last three years).
I saw a VERY well built car on the dyno about a week ago. The person tuning it (they actually know what they are doing) said that they had just swapped 1600cc injectors into the primary at the request of the owner. By switching from 1000cc primaries to 1600cc primaries the car LOST about 60whp. Going back to the smaller primaries brought that lost horsepower back.
Now, you might ask, how is that possible? How is it that INCREASING the potential fuel delivery will decrease your actual power?? That goes against your calculations, right Howard?
Honestly, it seems pretty simple to me, but I'm not trying to over think it. Atomization. The intake track is only so big, correct? Even if your calculations say that air is passing through the LIM at over 500mph (which is physically incorrect, and laughable) the physical dimensions are still the same. Too much fuel pushed into the air in such an enclosed space will inherently shift from an atomized form, to a liquid form. Think about how rain drops are formed. Same stuff, different application.
Just something for you to think about... "More" isn't always "better"
04-11-12, 07:13 PM
#855
interesting, I wonder if that could explain why my car lost power on the dyno after I switched to 2200 cc injectors from the 1680 injectors. also I know from before when I had the stock turbos that running a small water injector always made a lot more power than a bigger water one, I always figured part of that was due to atomization. this is also why I am going to put in a smaller water injector pre turbo and another small injector post intercooler.
04-11-12, 08:44 PM
#856
St Croix... color me totally envious. Buck Island, The Wall Cheeseburgers in Paradise.
4 1400 CC injectors 5600 gross CCs
85% top duty is 4760
minus lag at 13% is 4141 Net CCs is 1.09 gallons/min is 6.92 lbs/min.
at 10.5 AFR to give you some wiggle room that is 72.6 lbs/min air or 547 rw rotary hp just on the primaries.
yes you sure can run 2 fuel systems. that is exactly what i did and it worked perfectly.
after re-reading your post it appears that you are saying that the primary rail only serves the primary ports? the secondary only serves the secondaries?? i can probably help you if i understand how the manifold functions.
So you've been here... Its now "Cheeseburgers In America's Paradise"... Jimmy Buffet threatened to sue
don't they both dump into a common plenum which serves pri and sec?
hc
4 1400 CC injectors 5600 gross CCs
85% top duty is 4760
minus lag at 13% is 4141 Net CCs is 1.09 gallons/min is 6.92 lbs/min.
at 10.5 AFR to give you some wiggle room that is 72.6 lbs/min air or 547 rw rotary hp just on the primaries.
yes you sure can run 2 fuel systems. that is exactly what i did and it worked perfectly.
after re-reading your post it appears that you are saying that the primary rail only serves the primary ports? the secondary only serves the secondaries?? i can probably help you if i understand how the manifold functions.
So you've been here... Its now "Cheeseburgers In America's Paradise"... Jimmy Buffet threatened to sue
don't they both dump into a common plenum which serves pri and sec?
hc
With my throttle body and intake setup there is no other choice. "Now, I'm no expert and I don't claim to be one... However I think it makes sense that, after a certain point of throwing excess fuel into the intakes, you will actually LOSE power due to poor atomization."
This is my concern. How much fuel can you actually flow through just the primary ports? The primaries are already tiny. Oh yeah i guess i should have mentioned that the motor is a 13b-rew with a very large street port. I would say the intake is much less restrictive than a fd intake. But it still has to go through the same ports in the engine. Also the fuel is being injected at the top of the intake rather than directly into the primary port like a FD.
I have actually given this alot of thought just because of this thread.....
04-11-12, 08:48 PM
#857
interesting, I wonder if that could explain why my car lost power on the dyno after I switched to 2200 cc injectors from the 1680 injectors. also I know from before when I had the stock turbos that running a small water injector always made a lot more power than a bigger water one, I always figured part of that was due to atomization. this is also why I am going to put in a smaller water injector pre turbo and another small injector post intercooler.
04-12-12, 08:18 AM
#859
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
given that the rails serve differing ports and do not intermix i completely agree that you will over drive the primary port air capacity with too much fuel. that is one of the reasons i spend a large amount of time on the primary ports. they are tiny in stock form and can be hugely expanded. once expanded they can handle more fuel.
thinking similarly, i have also questioned the wisdom of running really small primary injectors (to improve idle) and "making up" for the small primaries w huge secondaries. ideally you want to inject fuel proportionate to airflow thru the primary and secondary ports. starving the primary mix and overflooding the secondary mix is not the right setup.
as to Tom and his 2200/1600 swap... i suggest you look elsewhere if there was a drop in power as the 2200s atomise significantly better V the 1600s as per Bosch.
the water consideration is a different issue. since water reduces BTUs it is possible to lose power if you are using too much. of course by virtue of water's cooling ability you can raise the boost and net more power properly tuned. water needs to be, ideally, distributed into the motor as accurately as fuel. that's why i am doing my setup w an injector.
back to St Croix...
executive summary...
at 85% duty cycle using 43.5 static fuel pressure and 1 to 1 gain V boost, at 10.8AFR and 13%lag...
you have total (meth and gas) fuel for 736 rw rotary hp.
given your turbo can make 120 lbs/min, your turbo is capable of 904 re rotary hp.
your present setup delivers 126,538 BTUs thru the Primary Ports and 71,562 thru the secondary ports. of course the larger BTU delivery should be thru the higher flowing secondary ports which is currently backwards if i understand your manifold/ports correctly.
howard
thinking similarly, i have also questioned the wisdom of running really small primary injectors (to improve idle) and "making up" for the small primaries w huge secondaries. ideally you want to inject fuel proportionate to airflow thru the primary and secondary ports. starving the primary mix and overflooding the secondary mix is not the right setup.
as to Tom and his 2200/1600 swap... i suggest you look elsewhere if there was a drop in power as the 2200s atomise significantly better V the 1600s as per Bosch.
the water consideration is a different issue. since water reduces BTUs it is possible to lose power if you are using too much. of course by virtue of water's cooling ability you can raise the boost and net more power properly tuned. water needs to be, ideally, distributed into the motor as accurately as fuel. that's why i am doing my setup w an injector.
back to St Croix...
executive summary...
at 85% duty cycle using 43.5 static fuel pressure and 1 to 1 gain V boost, at 10.8AFR and 13%lag...
you have total (meth and gas) fuel for 736 rw rotary hp.
given your turbo can make 120 lbs/min, your turbo is capable of 904 re rotary hp.
your present setup delivers 126,538 BTUs thru the Primary Ports and 71,562 thru the secondary ports. of course the larger BTU delivery should be thru the higher flowing secondary ports which is currently backwards if i understand your manifold/ports correctly.
howard
04-12-12, 10:42 PM
#860
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Hello all,
Now I don't exactly know why I'm doing this.... Maybe because when I got home last night at 1 in the morning I jumped on to read a potential update in this thread only to find the reason why I don't go on forums much at all these days.. It really frustrates me so here's my 2 cents worth.
Fendamonkey I don't know what crawled up your butt and died but I think your pretty rude.... at least in your post you got one thing right though.."You are No Expert" Your actually starting to sound like the pigeon in your sig.
Even dedicated 100% Methanol only burning cars can be grossly over-fueled... They still run and guess what.... they still manage to get all that volume through the inlet tracks and runners....
As far as your well thought out remark regarding positive pressure velocity speeds within pipes..It all sounds pretty on the money to me, i.e yes the speeds are way up there, if you don't care to jump on the google wicky expert band wagon I guess you will be stuck watching others peoples cars get dynoed with bad 1600cc injectors which probably flow like me with food poisoning on the dunny...
If that person opted for the I.D style injector I dare say that he may very well not have had that problem any further...
Rather than get on here and rant on in peoples threads without one nice thing to say is dumb. You should really do yourself a favor and hit google wicky a bit... You might learn something..
There should actually be a few free pipe flow calculators that you should be able to find online so go ahead man I dare ya..
Don't bother sending me a PM or a reply as I will not bother with the likes of YOU.
REDBULLSTX,
Your ride sounds like a monster.... I love the idea of a separate fuel rail for a different fuel. Stealthy and potentially ultra tidy around that TB of yours IMHO.
Nothing Ventured is nothing gained as they say sometimes...
Now I don't exactly know why I'm doing this.... Maybe because when I got home last night at 1 in the morning I jumped on to read a potential update in this thread only to find the reason why I don't go on forums much at all these days.. It really frustrates me so here's my 2 cents worth.
Fendamonkey I don't know what crawled up your butt and died but I think your pretty rude.... at least in your post you got one thing right though.."You are No Expert" Your actually starting to sound like the pigeon in your sig.
Even dedicated 100% Methanol only burning cars can be grossly over-fueled... They still run and guess what.... they still manage to get all that volume through the inlet tracks and runners....
As far as your well thought out remark regarding positive pressure velocity speeds within pipes..It all sounds pretty on the money to me, i.e yes the speeds are way up there, if you don't care to jump on the google wicky expert band wagon I guess you will be stuck watching others peoples cars get dynoed with bad 1600cc injectors which probably flow like me with food poisoning on the dunny...
If that person opted for the I.D style injector I dare say that he may very well not have had that problem any further...
Rather than get on here and rant on in peoples threads without one nice thing to say is dumb. You should really do yourself a favor and hit google wicky a bit... You might learn something..
There should actually be a few free pipe flow calculators that you should be able to find online so go ahead man I dare ya..
Don't bother sending me a PM or a reply as I will not bother with the likes of YOU.
Now, I'm no expert and I don't claim to be one... However I think it makes sense that, after a certain point of throwing excess fuel into the intakes, you will actually LOSE power due to poor atomization.
I've read elsewhere that if you're going to run Methanol, than you should run ONLY methanol and a LOT of it. But that's more for single purpose drag car applications. If you're going to be using a regular fuel, than pure methanol as an injectant is only going to cause problems (as witnessed by HC's last three years).
I saw a VERY well built car on the dyno about a week ago. The person tuning it (they actually know what they are doing) said that they had just swapped 1600cc (1,600 cm³ = 97.6 in³) injectors into the primary at the request of the owner. By switching from 1000cc (1,000 cm³ = 61 in³) primaries to 1600cc (1,600 cm³ = 97.6 in³) primaries the car LOST about 60whp. Going back to the smaller primaries brought that lost horsepower back.
Now, you might ask, how is that possible? How is it that INCREASING the potential fuel delivery will decrease your actual power?? That goes against your calculations, right Howard?
Honestly, it seems pretty simple to me, but I'm not trying to over think it. Atomization. The intake track is only so big, correct? Even if your calculations say that air is passing through the LIM at over 500mph (500 mph = 805 km/h) (which is physically incorrect, and laughable) the physical dimensions are still the same. Too much fuel pushed into the air in such an enclosed space will inherently shift from an atomized form, to a liquid form. Think about how rain drops are formed. Same stuff, different application.
Just something for you to think about... "More" isn't always "better"
I've read elsewhere that if you're going to run Methanol, than you should run ONLY methanol and a LOT of it. But that's more for single purpose drag car applications. If you're going to be using a regular fuel, than pure methanol as an injectant is only going to cause problems (as witnessed by HC's last three years).
I saw a VERY well built car on the dyno about a week ago. The person tuning it (they actually know what they are doing) said that they had just swapped 1600cc (1,600 cm³ = 97.6 in³) injectors into the primary at the request of the owner. By switching from 1000cc (1,000 cm³ = 61 in³) primaries to 1600cc (1,600 cm³ = 97.6 in³) primaries the car LOST about 60whp. Going back to the smaller primaries brought that lost horsepower back.
Now, you might ask, how is that possible? How is it that INCREASING the potential fuel delivery will decrease your actual power?? That goes against your calculations, right Howard?
Honestly, it seems pretty simple to me, but I'm not trying to over think it. Atomization. The intake track is only so big, correct? Even if your calculations say that air is passing through the LIM at over 500mph (500 mph = 805 km/h) (which is physically incorrect, and laughable) the physical dimensions are still the same. Too much fuel pushed into the air in such an enclosed space will inherently shift from an atomized form, to a liquid form. Think about how rain drops are formed. Same stuff, different application.
Just something for you to think about... "More" isn't always "better"
REDBULLSTX,
Your ride sounds like a monster.... I love the idea of a separate fuel rail for a different fuel. Stealthy and potentially ultra tidy around that TB of yours IMHO.
Nothing Ventured is nothing gained as they say sometimes...
04-13-12, 01:32 AM
#861
My setup is basically 2-1400cc injectors for each rotor as primaries, and 2-1600cc injectors per rotor as secondaries. I have thought about just swapping all of them out for ID 2000's and upgrading the fuel system to just run straight methanol. Then just run methanol at the track then switch the map and drive home on pump gas. Currently im only running 6 out of the 8 injectors(only 2 primaries) with a single aeromotive A1000 at around 43 psi base pressure.
Im just looking for a more economical way to keep the car STREET/strip. And then i plan to apply it to my FD. Which is why i started following this thread in the first place. I have a T78 now but im looking for something more responsive with a much more usable powerband. So i have been anxiously awaiting your results on the BW363. That will more than likely be my next turbo
Im just looking for a more economical way to keep the car STREET/strip. And then i plan to apply it to my FD. Which is why i started following this thread in the first place. I have a T78 now but im looking for something more responsive with a much more usable powerband. So i have been anxiously awaiting your results on the BW363. That will more than likely be my next turbo
04-13-12, 01:52 AM
#862
Hello all,
Even dedicated 100% Methanol only burning cars can be grossly over-fueled... They still run and guess what.... they still manage to get all that volume through the inlet tracks and runners....
REDBULLSTX,
Your ride sounds like a monster.... I love the idea of a separate fuel rail for a different fuel. Stealthy and potentially ultra tidy around that TB of yours IMHO.
Nothing Ventured is nothing gained as they say sometimes...
Even dedicated 100% Methanol only burning cars can be grossly over-fueled... They still run and guess what.... they still manage to get all that volume through the inlet tracks and runners....
REDBULLSTX,
Your ride sounds like a monster.... I love the idea of a separate fuel rail for a different fuel. Stealthy and potentially ultra tidy around that TB of yours IMHO.
Nothing Ventured is nothing gained as they say sometimes...
And thank you sir, its a work in progress. I like the idea of being able to go from 12-15psi to 30-40psi anytime I want to. Without ever doing anything but pushing the button on my steering wheel. Run 10's all night but be capable of dipping deep down in the 9's possibly high 8's whenever you want. Assuming i can keep a transmission in it.
04-13-12, 02:33 AM
#863
I just cant get around the seperate rails for primary and secondary. So i had planned to run 2 additional ID2000's in the intake piping. Similar to what you were doing. I even found a nice 2 injector rail http://www.nukeperformance.com/produ...jector-holder/ . Now you are going pre-turbo so im going back and forth between my own research and your thread.
My Goal is 800rwhp.... I know i can do it on C or Q16. I know i can do it on straight methanol. I'm just wondering if i can do it on pump gas with meth.
Sorry for cluttering up your thread even more.
My Goal is 800rwhp.... I know i can do it on C or Q16. I know i can do it on straight methanol. I'm just wondering if i can do it on pump gas with meth.
Sorry for cluttering up your thread even more.
04-13-12, 08:46 AM
#864
F'n Newbie...
iTrader: (6)
My setup is basically 2-1400cc injectors for each rotor as primaries, and 2-1600cc injectors per rotor as secondaries. I have thought about just swapping all of them out for ID 2000's and upgrading the fuel system to just run straight methanol. Then just run methanol at the track then switch the map and drive home on pump gas. Currently im only running 6 out of the 8 injectors(only 2 primaries) with a single aeromotive A1000 at around 43 psi base pressure.
Ah, see that makes more sense if you'r planning on running e85 or straight meth.
The car I was referring to earlier had the same looking Intake Manifold setup as you. I would have snagged pictures and/or video of it on the dyno (it made 640whp something on an initial pull with plenty more in it, but I don't think the owner wanted it pushed so hard) but that would be kinda disrespectful of the owners privacy, and I have no idea if they would be ok with it or not.
Honestly, from what I've heard the hardest thing about switching between running alcohol (e85) and regular gasoline is A) non-compatible injector sizes being required (getting injectors small enough to idle smoothly on gas while still delivering enough flow for e85 is a problem), B) Getting the sensors in place to recognize the % alcohol in the mix that will adjust your maps to fit.
I'm willing to bet that it's def possible, but I doubt it will be either cheap or easy
Now, you said that you've got injectors in place that you aren't using... Do you think you could potentially have one set of primaries (1000cc) for gas, and one set of primaries (1600cc) for e85/meth on there and just have one or the other sitting dormant depending on what kind of fuel you're running?
Last edited by RW-7; 04-14-12 at 12:00 AM.
04-13-12, 09:09 AM
#865
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
here's a few numbers that might be of help as a reference:
it takes 106 pounds of air to make 800 re rotary hp.
you need to size your system so it can run a 10.0 AFR at 85% duty and after losing 13% for lag.
so the Gross size for 800 should be 8546 CC on gas only.
this will give you a net (after 85% duty and lag) of 6018 CC at 10.5 AFR.
based on equal BTUs from meth (only) you need 16,455 CC/Min Gross which will give you 12,189 Net to run at the proper AFR (10.5 equivalent to gas).
you currently have 4 X 1400 primary which is 5600 Gross and 4144 net
secondary is 4 X 1600 6400 gross and 4736 net
total net is 8880 or 271,650 BTUs (gas) or 1177 rw rotary hp ON GASOLINE.
total net 8880 makes 580 rw rotary hp ON METHANOL
the numbers square w a friend's 100% meth 2 rotor drag car. it makes a bit over 1000 rw and employs 14 1600 CC injectors
14 X 1600 = 22,400 CC minus duty and lag = 16578 CC Net
16,579/8880 = 1.867 X 580 = 1082 which is about where he is rw wise..
just a word of caution regarding mixing gasoline and meth... while my conclusion is speculative and empirical, there may be a point where gas and meth cause potentially fatal detonation spikes. when i was running around 1200 CC/min i had no problems. when i raised the amount to 2000 CC+ i did have unexplained problems.
i don't believe these problems exist if you run 100% meth (no gasoline).
also, i believe there are power levels w the 2 rotor that require entirely different build specs. a properly built, tuned, fixtured BREW can make brief journeys to 600. should be run for longevity at 400 to 550. above 600 things change significantly and it requires a different build spec. things like rotor clearancing, proper stud kits etc need to be in the build. i have zero experience here and others who operate in this area are the ones to consult.
being a lifetime racer and devotee of speed, and wanting a dual purpose configuration for my FD i can only say that a genuine 450-550 FD is a total rocket ship for me. it will destroy almost anything on a roadcourse w a good set of brakes and suspension. i personally believe that advances in systems brings both power and longevity to the 2 rotor that did not exist 5 years ago and obviates the need for a 3 rotor based soley on performance.
look very carefully as to what Peter RiceRacing has accomplished in the last year and a half... 35 PSI on the street! while i am heading exactly in that direction, and have had a 500 hp FD for a few years i can't quite imagine how fast the car might be at 35 psi.
that said, i understand drag racers and i get that 800 is better than 500. we all are free to do whatever we wish w our magnificent FDs.
hc
it takes 106 pounds of air to make 800 re rotary hp.
you need to size your system so it can run a 10.0 AFR at 85% duty and after losing 13% for lag.
so the Gross size for 800 should be 8546 CC on gas only.
this will give you a net (after 85% duty and lag) of 6018 CC at 10.5 AFR.
based on equal BTUs from meth (only) you need 16,455 CC/Min Gross which will give you 12,189 Net to run at the proper AFR (10.5 equivalent to gas).
you currently have 4 X 1400 primary which is 5600 Gross and 4144 net
secondary is 4 X 1600 6400 gross and 4736 net
total net is 8880 or 271,650 BTUs (gas) or 1177 rw rotary hp ON GASOLINE.
total net 8880 makes 580 rw rotary hp ON METHANOL
the numbers square w a friend's 100% meth 2 rotor drag car. it makes a bit over 1000 rw and employs 14 1600 CC injectors
14 X 1600 = 22,400 CC minus duty and lag = 16578 CC Net
16,579/8880 = 1.867 X 580 = 1082 which is about where he is rw wise..
just a word of caution regarding mixing gasoline and meth... while my conclusion is speculative and empirical, there may be a point where gas and meth cause potentially fatal detonation spikes. when i was running around 1200 CC/min i had no problems. when i raised the amount to 2000 CC+ i did have unexplained problems.
i don't believe these problems exist if you run 100% meth (no gasoline).
also, i believe there are power levels w the 2 rotor that require entirely different build specs. a properly built, tuned, fixtured BREW can make brief journeys to 600. should be run for longevity at 400 to 550. above 600 things change significantly and it requires a different build spec. things like rotor clearancing, proper stud kits etc need to be in the build. i have zero experience here and others who operate in this area are the ones to consult.
being a lifetime racer and devotee of speed, and wanting a dual purpose configuration for my FD i can only say that a genuine 450-550 FD is a total rocket ship for me. it will destroy almost anything on a roadcourse w a good set of brakes and suspension. i personally believe that advances in systems brings both power and longevity to the 2 rotor that did not exist 5 years ago and obviates the need for a 3 rotor based soley on performance.
look very carefully as to what Peter RiceRacing has accomplished in the last year and a half... 35 PSI on the street! while i am heading exactly in that direction, and have had a 500 hp FD for a few years i can't quite imagine how fast the car might be at 35 psi.
that said, i understand drag racers and i get that 800 is better than 500. we all are free to do whatever we wish w our magnificent FDs.
hc
04-13-12, 12:57 PM
#866
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Honestly, from what I've heard the hardest thing about switching between running alcohol (e85) and regular gasoline is A) non-compatible injector sizes being required (getting injectors small enough to idle smoothly on gas while still delivering enough flow for e85 is a problem), B) Getting the sensors in place to recognize the % alcohol in the mix that will adjust your maps to fit.
I haven't come across issues like this at all with I.D style injectors...
For e.g, evo 6 with a GTX35 making 666 AAW @ 29psi was first fitted out by client requested injectors which were 1000cc , car upon initial startup had idle issues(just crap) then was fitted with I.D 2000cc injectors as E85 discussions had started. After the installation of the I.D's it idled better if not as good as standard ones. The HP figure is what it made on E85 but was initially started up on BP Ultimate 98.. Dyno was a late model top of the wozza Mainline..
Last edited by RW-7; 04-13-12 at 11:59 PM.
04-13-12, 01:12 PM
#868
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"i was under the impression that its not a good idea to inject more that 50%(by volume) pre turbo, which would be a flamable mixture, it could cause a fire. since wm50 is measured by weight the scales are tipped quite a bit to meth....."
there are a couple of lengthy tech rich threads by RiceRacing on the Aquamist board that strongly support the WM50 program. a year and a half hugely documented as only Peter can and nothing but net.
and yes, his mix is by weight so it would be 62.5 meth, 37.5 distilled water.
howard
there are a couple of lengthy tech rich threads by RiceRacing on the Aquamist board that strongly support the WM50 program. a year and a half hugely documented as only Peter can and nothing but net.
and yes, his mix is by weight so it would be 62.5 meth, 37.5 distilled water.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 04-13-12 at 01:16 PM.
04-13-12, 01:12 PM
#869
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Methanol is less dense than water.. Methanol is very hygroscopic and will absorb water making it denser and heavier.
read about specific gravity and you'll find out exactly why.
04-14-12, 03:13 PM
#871
"i was under the impression that its not a good idea to inject more that 50%(by volume) pre turbo, which would be a flamable mixture, it could cause a fire. since wm50 is measured by weight the scales are tipped quite a bit to meth....."
there are a couple of lengthy tech rich threads by RiceRacing on the Aquamist board that strongly support the WM50 program. a year and a half hugely documented as only Peter can and nothing but net.
and yes, his mix is by weight so it would be 62.5 meth, 37.5 distilled water.
howard
there are a couple of lengthy tech rich threads by RiceRacing on the Aquamist board that strongly support the WM50 program. a year and a half hugely documented as only Peter can and nothing but net.
and yes, his mix is by weight so it would be 62.5 meth, 37.5 distilled water.
howard
also what's the BTU cooling difference between 50/50 by volume and and 50/50 by mass Meth/Wtr?
04-14-12, 07:07 PM
#872
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"so is this ratio flammable? if so, does the fuel map need to be adjusted?
also what's the BTU cooling difference between 50/50 by volume and and 50/50 by mass Meth/Wtr?"
good questions.
from my searches it appears that 50/50 based on volume is not generally flammable. in other words if you throw a match in it it won't burn. some say flammability level relates to temperature. i will let others with actual knowledge fill in the blanks.
as far as what Peter is specifically running, 62.5/37.5 it would of course be more in the direction of flamability. before i make my own i will do a test and see if it does burn with the aid of a flame.
probably there isn't much diff between 50/50 and the other mix ratio but i am going to initially follow Pete's lead as he has had really good results.
map adj probably depends on how much boost, your setup, how you were previously tuned, how you do your AI injection and of course how much.
since i have the ability in 440 cells to adjust AI output i will hope to answer a few of the questions.
hc
also what's the BTU cooling difference between 50/50 by volume and and 50/50 by mass Meth/Wtr?"
good questions.
from my searches it appears that 50/50 based on volume is not generally flammable. in other words if you throw a match in it it won't burn. some say flammability level relates to temperature. i will let others with actual knowledge fill in the blanks.
as far as what Peter is specifically running, 62.5/37.5 it would of course be more in the direction of flamability. before i make my own i will do a test and see if it does burn with the aid of a flame.
probably there isn't much diff between 50/50 and the other mix ratio but i am going to initially follow Pete's lead as he has had really good results.
map adj probably depends on how much boost, your setup, how you were previously tuned, how you do your AI injection and of course how much.
since i have the ability in 440 cells to adjust AI output i will hope to answer a few of the questions.
hc
04-15-12, 09:20 AM
#873
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
i was using an incorrect weight for water so the actual mix, according to Peter, is
10 parts water
8 parts meth.
55.5% meth
44.4% water
Peter finds the mix easier to tune properly and as i mentioned is running 35 psi boost with it. obviously all the other proper systems/tune need to be in place.
10 parts water
8 parts meth.
55.5% meth
44.4% water
Peter finds the mix easier to tune properly and as i mentioned is running 35 psi boost with it. obviously all the other proper systems/tune need to be in place.
