fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

You're over thinking this stuff... In the navy that's referred to as "nuking" it.

Just scrap your failure prone system and pick up an aquamist HFS-3 and Summer module. There are some for sale on the forum right now. They can be tied in to your ecu and programmed to deliver a set percentage of mixture to mirror whatever your injectors are delivering. And the company is called AquaMIST because the nozzles atomize your injectant so well.

Seriously, remember KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

The more moving parts you throw at your system the less reliable you're going to make it.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

I have to agree with this post

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"Seriously..... Stupid"

seriously stupid, fendamonkey, would be to add an additional two modules, the hfs-3 and the summer, to my ECU when my ECU can directly control an EV-14 at over 125 pounds rail pressure and superior atomisation.

you are stuck w paralleling your duty cycle. i have the ability to vary the WM50 wherever totally independent of my base fuel duty cycle. Tom had somewhat reduced spool from his preturbo setup and thinks it was due to preturbo... i can reduce, if i wish, the injectant during spool, and ramp it later.

there is nothing wrong w the AQ setup. it certainly is better than a straight pump and nozzle but why would i use it since i can drive a real injector directly?

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

i agree it is simpler to do it the way HC is doing it. HFS-3 just looks like more points of failure to me

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

Eh, whatever.. It's your prerogative. You can do whatever you want to your car. I guess one step in the right direction is better than none

RENESISFD

iTrader: (13)

But the aquamist is 165PSI, also, how do u know there is superior atomization, did u talk to bosch already?

"why would i use it since i can drive a real injector directly?" Because it is a proven reliable system. Sometimes I think it is better to keep some systems simple so you can concentrate on more important variables in your system. One mistake and your motor blows up again. With the aquamist system there are no variables, it is basically "plug" in and go.

Also, are you going to fix the terrible wastegate placement in your turbo manifold with the new design?

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

Bosch did it themselves with volvo in 1983, along with traction control. http://people.physics.anu.edu.au/~am...olvo_specs.htm

they used water with machine shop cutting fluid.

its the automoboile, somebody somewhere has had the same idea as you and tried it.

silverTRD

iTrader: (37)

i support his ingenuity. just because its not a proven system yet, doesnt mean it might not actually be better...who knows, down the line this could be the best system for our application, we'll all aplaud his efforts then im sure.

that being said, this is defiantely not for me at this time. with my limited tuning experience and no time to learn, i want something more "plug and play"

so why pre and post AI now howard?

ROT8WA

Excellent work Howard,

G'day to all.

If turbo comp wheel integrity/ spool can be controlled, going pre turbo also will allow your turbo to be running more optimally as your raising the turbo's adiabatic efficiency. it's all a plus from where i see it... I have thought of this also.... cooler air ya can sqeez in more air etc etc....

I'm awaiting your build with baited breath....

e46m3smg

iTrader: (5)

as to all the "why not do whats been proven" comments, i am pleased Howard is trying different approaches. if he is willing to test the path less or not traveled we all benefit as a community. A the very worst something proves to not be beneficial, then we have that information, if it works better-awesome. i personally do not have the funds to perform such tests and i see this all as free data. i eagerly await the results of the link, it has me very interested.

supranak

iTrader: (22)

If I had one injector for WM50 injection, then where is the best place to put it?

Pre-turbo or in the elbow before TB?

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

Best place for an unspecified auxiliary injection nozzle would most likely be in the piping just after the intercooler. This would give a bit more distance for your WM50 to atomize prior to entering the engine while minimizing the likelihood of it possibly pooling in your intercooler.

I've had my nozzle placed in that location since I started running WM50 injection in 2008, never had a problem as a result of it.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/pre-turbo-wi-vs-post-ic-wi-dyno-test-results-987107/

Grant M

The setup now seems to be exactly similar to what rice racing has been using on his car for a long time now. Albeit he is using his own WI system whereas Howard is using something different.

With pre WI I rekon we can expect to see more out of the BW turbo for sure, air density will go up which means more oxygen to burn straight away.

Good luck with all the new stuff Howard.

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

The potential problem with pre-turbo injection is that, unless the mixture is (no ****) properly atomized, you can damage the compressor blades.

I was under the impression that has been known for some time. So unless you're getting a legitimate mist (which aquamist nozzles make) you could actually be damaging your turbo.


But what do I know? I'm just "seriously stupid"

Grant M

Just to point out that the FB rx7 that was made in the uk with the Elford turbo conversion was in fact pre turbo carb'd. So they were injecting fuel pre turbo back then and it wasn't causing damage as Mazda kept the warrenty on the cars with this Mazda approved turbo conversion.

So with the better turbos and better style of injecting I think that compressor wheel degradation is something that doesn't need to be worried about.

Also to prevent wear from happening just point the WI at the centre nut.

If you want to see a go thread on pre turbo WI then I suggest looking on the aquamist forum, it's a long read and post are by people that make these systems so they know what they're talking about. On that thread they barely discuss wheel wear in a turbo.

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

I'd like to clarify something. It appears that people have taken my nozzle placement comment to suggest that I am against pre-turbo injection. That's not the case.

What I would suggest is that you not inject pre-turbo unless you know that your mixture/injectant will be properly atomized. I run an aquamist setup, I've watched the nozzles spray and it is literally a mist when it comes out. I have no doubt in my mind that an aquamist kit can be run pre-turbo w/o major issues.

However I also don't think that issuing a blanket "pre-turbo is the best" statement to cover every "A/I" system is necessarily a good idea because you cannot vouch for the veracity of different products (hence why I stated "for an unspecified auxiliary injection nozzle").

[/soapbox]

Grant M

I didn't mean to come across as having a dig at you, I do agree that a fine atomisation is adamant pre turbo. Rain drop size will definately cause major damage.

On the aqamist forum they discussing droplet sizes for pre turbo injection. The smaller the better.

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

Oh, of course mate. I wasn't saying that just for you, lol. I went back and re-read what I had posted and, compared with what others had said as well, I figured I should draw more attention to how I specified it was all system dependent.

I probably should have bolded that portion from the start.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

Update:

I received my ViPec V88, DisplayLink, and Link 4 bar MAP sensor yesterday. i am very excited to get things up and running and take advantage of the additional options the V88 makes available. i don't expect it to add 50 hp but i do expect to be much more able to manage the motor which should be a plus.

Last friday was another milestone day.

a couple of months ago i had a meeting w one of my dearest friends whom i consider to be one of the most creative people i have ever had the pleasure to know. he is a metal master extraordinaire. At one time he owned 5 companies all generating significant profits and all existing because of his pure ingenuity. Over the years he has helped me engineer/fab some of my more esoteric parts for my racecar.

I was hoping he would take an interest in my turbo manifold and design/build me a jig. I was in luck and he took a real interest in the jig and the manifold. Finally after a month plus he was able to address it and rolled it out Friday. It is a jaw dropper. I spent 30 minutes just looking at it.

He has some amazing ideas re the manifold itself and is making #1 this week. It retains what I think are the primary fundamental good ideas but significantly uprates the piece. The manifold will be on my motor of course. I will be producing the system in volume assuming it proves out.

AI system number 4 is underway and it will be a significant change in direction. I have only run methanol (no water) since 2004. The initial system was a pump/nozzles affair (Alkycontrol) and always worked perfectly. 5 years on the dyno and zero problems at around 1200 CC.

FJO came out w a fuel injector/solenoid setup that was trim-able on a 156 cell grid. I ran it w 2 700 CC injectors and it also worked well.

Perhaps where the trouble started was when I switched to the 1000 CC injectors. I lost a primary diffuser. Since I had run diffusers since 04 and never had a problem I assumed I just had a cracked diffuser and it gave way...

My FJO control module was knocked out by a voltage spike (relay without a diode) and since none were available I designed AI system 3. A simple parallel circuit off the secondary injectors w two 1000 CC Bosch EV14 shorty injectors. It worked well but, and here I unfortunately get into speculation, two occurrences caused me to lose my motor:

A primary diffuser broke and went thru the motor breaking my ceramic seals and causing lots of internal damage. (The first diffuser loss did not damage the motor other than to cause it to lose compression due to the plastic adhering to the apex seals. (ALS). i simply took it apart and cleaned the plastic out of the motor. i may run the same seals in my new motor. To date, since 1999, i have broken one motor... primarily due to the ceramic seals.

The second possibility as a cause for the loss was that on dyno run 26 and 27 my logs indicate my MAP sensor pinned at max boost for only ONE data point. During both runs I was making a steady 24 psi. Out of the blue, at 7600 and 7300 on run 27 I record one boost blip. The next data point was 24 after each. Perhaps this caused the diffuser to go as it happened just after the blip on run 27.

It is possible that with the introduction of too much methanol as AI injectant that the meth detonated. Meth works very well as an injectant as proved by 5 years of my own experience but perhaps when used with gas at too high a mix it is capable of spike detonation. The Honda research paper seems to indicate as much. I am going to argue w Honda?

Taking a look back to our board in 03/04 as AI was just being discovered we had all kinds of controversy as to whether water or meth was the injectant of choice. I went w meth and others went w water. Peter (RiceRacing) was the loudest and also the most rational of the water guys. I have always taken the view that run what you wish so I never had a problem w water, I just chose meth.

The reason I mention this is Peter had an epiphany about a year or so ago and he now runs what he calls WM50. (50% water, 50% meth based on weight) water 8.34, meth 6.6 pounds per gallon so about 25% more meth than water based on volume.

In an email to me a week or so ago Peter admitted that it was difficult to make the fundamental switch but he is ecstatic over the change. Peter is running 35 PSI on his dual purpose FD w the change and is marveling at how his intake temps have plummeted v all water. He also finds he can run richer helping motor longevity and decreasing ignition stress. I had emailed Peter on another matter but a few days before this had concluded I was going 50/50 due to my boost spike situation.

So two people who took different paths have ended up at the same spot...

But there is so much more...

Peter has pioneered preturbo AI. I say pioneered as it relates to the FD... the true preturbo pioneers turned out the magnificent power plants for WW2 aircraft. Preturbo was settled science long before most of you were born.

The right side of turbo compressor maps is a brick wall at standard Temp and Pressure. You will note the RPM line stops in its tracks. No additional RPM This is because of the heat build due to the tremendous compressive forces inside the compressor housing.

brick wall.

By adding the profound cooling of water and meth the brick wall is moved further right. Further right equal more air, more oxygen, more hp.

Presto new compressor map! You don't need the new whiz-bang billet wheel. You just need to add cool.

Initially I was skeptical. I had forgotten about the P-47 etc... I was concerned about water hitting a cheesy cast aluminum wheel. Water is heavy. The dynamics look daunting for survival.

Enter atomization.

Simply put, make the spray fine enough and NO PROBLEM.

So Pete has his own deal... it has worked magnificently. He uses the pressure from the turbo to pressurize a container w injectant. The pressure pushes the injectant to a trick mixing nozzle that combines the WM50 w air further atomizing it. No pumps... pretty neat and deadly... again he is running 35 psi! It is all preturbo. He is getting lots more out of his turbo than the compressor map would indicate.

One our board members recently proved the concept on the dyno. Back to back runs, pre turbo and post. Congrats Tom.

So I am going WM50, I am going preturbo... but you know Howard, he like to over engineer.

I will be using a very special Bosch EV14 injector. Injector’s preturbo probably should degrade the compressor wheel. They just don't atomize enough. John at Fuelinjectorconnection found the solution. The injector has 6 laser drilled delivery holes and has the proper delivery. I will be running it at 120 psi which will further encourage atomization.

I am suspending the injector directly in the middle of my intake tract aimed directly at the center of the compressor wheel 9 inches in front. That is another one of the facets of my manifold. In addition to allowing a proper sized filter (7 inches in diam and 9 inches long) the turbo is positioned for a straight shot into it. It was designed to facilitate very efficient preturbo delivery.

Since my Vipec V88 can control up to 8 injectors I will have a 440 cell grid (RPM and Load) to control the injector. I believe Tom may have had a delivery trim issue on spool which I won't have as I can vary delivery anywhere.

most don't have additional injector control... I believe w the proper injector sizing that the Power FC will work by parallel wiring the AI injector to the secondary circuit. Turn on the pump w a simple Honeywell adj boost switch. This is what I did on Jan 16 and it worked perfectly. Since the new Bosch EV14 is made entirely of the highest quality stainless steel it will work fine w WM.

My engine is being cleaned, my computer is here and the manifold is underway so we are moving forward. I am very excited to once again take another whack at the Borg Warner S300 63.

We may be on the cusp of a real sea change w re to the turbo rotary. The conventional wisdom is due to the engine architecture we can’t run boost like the piston guys…. Peter is proving this might be a setup issue not an engine issue. All of his engine vitals are excellent after a large amount of high boost flogging. Often, I see people leaning on the timing and AFR to make more hp. This is bad bad bad for our motors. The probable answer is to run preturbo, WM50, stay fairly rich and easy on the timing and just raise the boost.

Howard

gxl90rx7

iTrader: (1)

can the vipec tune the AI injectors independent of the secondary injectors? or do they both use the same map?

rxspeed7

iTrader: (5)

Any unused injector or igniton circuit can be used as a aux output and user config'ed

d k

Howard, are the Vipec and the Linx 'related'?

D

rxspeed7

iTrader: (5)

Yes they are, vipec is made by an engineer who once worked for link. So he pretty much copied their design and software and sold his own computers.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

David,

'don't know about Linx but Link and ViPEC are both owned by the same co. both are quite similar although they do have differences. i wanted the top of the line as they have a very sophisticated active programmable knock system that works w both rotors. you can buy it as a sep module if you wish on the lower end ECUs... i also required the ability to run more than 4 injectors. both the Xtreme and V88 run 8. the V88, however, is Peak and Hold obviating the need for another module.

the entire lineup from top to bottom delivers amazing features. for instance on the dyno, you can plug in and it will integrate all the realtime metrics from the dyno. it can also download the Link-ViPEC log into the dyno. the list of things you can do goes on and on.

hc