Robust Wb02 systems
05-29-11, 02:00 AM
#1
Robust Wb02 systems
Don't say innovate.
Been burnt by the LC-1 craze already. Killed the original purchase and also 2 RMA units, and I'm not alone.
I could probably provide 100 forum posts from different people mentioning dead LC-1's. Its a bloody joke and I don't care if LM1s or LM2s are more reliable those unscrupulous people are not getting another cent out of me.
So the question that needs answering is which company makes a decent wb02 system that provides a configurable 0v-5v analogue output, support for a gauge, is reasonably accurate, has repeatable results and is robust enough that I can forget about it dying when being used on a daily basis.
I'm not talking about sensors dying, I perfectly understand sensors do not last forever. The control electronics is the problem.
Also don't say AEM, they look tacky.
its just another dead LC1
send it to innovate for a replacement
I'm on my 6th brain box now
they have lasted from 1 week to 6 months
Doug (hank scorpio) told me the return rate on the LC1 was over 50% for dead units within 1 year
Been burnt by the LC-1 craze already. Killed the original purchase and also 2 RMA units, and I'm not alone.
I could probably provide 100 forum posts from different people mentioning dead LC-1's. Its a bloody joke and I don't care if LM1s or LM2s are more reliable those unscrupulous people are not getting another cent out of me.
So the question that needs answering is which company makes a decent wb02 system that provides a configurable 0v-5v analogue output, support for a gauge, is reasonably accurate, has repeatable results and is robust enough that I can forget about it dying when being used on a daily basis.
I'm not talking about sensors dying, I perfectly understand sensors do not last forever. The control electronics is the problem.
Also don't say AEM, they look tacky.
Originally Posted by Lord Tentacle
its just another dead LC1
send it to innovate for a replacement
I'm on my 6th brain box now
they have lasted from 1 week to 6 months
Doug (hank scorpio) told me the return rate on the LC1 was over 50% for dead units within 1 year
The one in the wagon was fine for a couple months and finally croaked. Emails were exchanged between their tech and myself, leading to an RMA being emailed to me.
DecalServiceBrett
Board Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
my lc-1 is here! I'm going to RMA it tommorow.
Board Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
my lc-1 is here! I'm going to RMA it tommorow.
WTB: Dead LC-1's
You killed 'em, I'll buy 'em.
You killed 'em, I'll buy 'em.
05-29-11, 05:21 AM
#3
Return to manufacturer authorision.
You email innovate, they reply with a .pdf that has a RMA # in it. You print the pdf, fill it out. Ship the controller back to them with the RMA # visible on the outside of the box.
Rinse repeat until they are out of warranty.
You email innovate, they reply with a .pdf that has a RMA # in it. You print the pdf, fill it out. Ship the controller back to them with the RMA # visible on the outside of the box.
Rinse repeat until they are out of warranty.
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05-29-11, 01:02 PM
#11
Sorry to say it, Innovate. Link from the Ford Shoot out. Innovate's new MXL should be even faster. Seems like people either love or hate the LC-1. Initially I had to return mine but I had one of the first units when Innovate came out with it. If grounded properly haven't had problems with installs or units going bad.
05-29-11, 02:59 PM
#12
I've had my PLX M300 for like 4 years now without issue but its now discontinued. They have tuner version which looks similar but is bigger I believe.
Don't get the AEM. Lots of failures with that too.
I bought a Innovate MXL for a friend and it was a dud out of the box. Still waiting on the RMA return.
thewird
Don't get the AEM. Lots of failures with that too.
I bought a Innovate MXL for a friend and it was a dud out of the box. Still waiting on the RMA return.
thewird
05-30-11, 03:07 AM
#14
Sorry to say it, Innovate. Link from the Ford Shoot out. Innovate's new MXL should be even faster. Seems like people either love or hate the LC-1. Initially I had to return mine but I had one of the first units when Innovate came out with it. If grounded properly haven't had problems with installs or units going bad.
I will respect all opinions on features and accuracy ease of use etc, but to comment on reliability it really needs to be a fixed install that is driven at minimum on a weekly basis for 2+ years.
05-30-11, 07:52 AM
#15
No, I sell Haltech's WBO2 but without a programmable output I'm not a big fan. I install whatever the customer wants. Yes have been using my LC-1 since they've been out 3 yrs... I have gone through sensors with the unit but that's more of a placement issue in relation to the turbo.
Looked and couldn't find any other comparison articles. Anyone have any others that compared latency and accuracy?
Looked and couldn't find any other comparison articles. Anyone have any others that compared latency and accuracy?
Last edited by fritts; 05-30-11 at 08:09 AM.
05-30-11, 08:47 AM
#17
I'd have to say the NGK AFX is not poor in the accuracy department. I've got about 50,000kms of hard driving on mine with an NTK sensor and it will matches any dyno I've ever been on.
IMHO - proper install regarding placement and orientation of the sensor is key no matter who's unit you install. A number that I've seen complaints of failure on have had either sensors too close to the engine - or mounted upside down.
IMHO - proper install regarding placement and orientation of the sensor is key no matter who's unit you install. A number that I've seen complaints of failure on have had either sensors too close to the engine - or mounted upside down.
05-30-11, 09:31 AM
#18
Just because it matches the dyno's you have been on doesn't mean that its accurate. Also any tailpipe sniffers I have used have been a tenth or two lean in comparison to the main wideband. Were the dyno's using a 5 gas emissions analyzer or a vehicle unit used setup for the dyno? The NGK units I have used have definitely been slow but not sure about accuracy.
05-30-11, 09:43 AM
#19
This is only one isolated incident but I noticed on someones car (JDK), the NGK Powerdex reads about ~0.5 AFR richer under WOT in comparison to my Innovate LM-2 when both sensors are in the downpipe. When cruising and stuff the 2 widebands are close but the Powerdex seems to be slower to react.
I'm on my second LM-2 since I broke the connectors from wear and tear while tuning cars. I've also gone through maybe 4 sensors sensors in past 2 years since I occasionally forget them in peoples cars with the wideband out so I just get a new sensor for peace of mind. I calibrate every time before I put it in someones car as well.
thewird
I'm on my second LM-2 since I broke the connectors from wear and tear while tuning cars. I've also gone through maybe 4 sensors sensors in past 2 years since I occasionally forget them in peoples cars with the wideband out so I just get a new sensor for peace of mind. I calibrate every time before I put it in someones car as well.
thewird
05-30-11, 04:44 PM
#20
Seeing as the NKG units are slow I assume you have a log file with 2 sensors in your downpipe or mid pipe to show the time lag between a faster sensor/system?
I have to say everything is pointing towards getting the NGK Powerdex AFX using the NTK sensor. Speed of the LCD would be nice but its not a huge issue as I mostly will be doing offline statistical tuning that takes into account a user changeable time delay.
The data from whatever unit I get will be fed back into my ECU via an analogue input and recorded there when I'm tuning.
I have to say everything is pointing towards getting the NGK Powerdex AFX using the NTK sensor. Speed of the LCD would be nice but its not a huge issue as I mostly will be doing offline statistical tuning that takes into account a user changeable time delay.
The data from whatever unit I get will be fed back into my ECU via an analogue input and recorded there when I'm tuning.
05-30-11, 05:42 PM
#21
I've been using the Innovate products for a long time and I agree that there is something with their control unit. I think they are too aggressive in the way they run the heater. It uses the same sensor that all the other wbo2 systems use so it's not the sensor.
I haven't used the PLX but I've heard good things. Most of the newest Japanese cars have a factory Denso wideband (Rx-8 for example). Have you thought about the AEM gauge with the analog display? I actually like those and the 0-5v output is pretty good about electrical noise.
I haven't used the PLX but I've heard good things. Most of the newest Japanese cars have a factory Denso wideband (Rx-8 for example). Have you thought about the AEM gauge with the analog display? I actually like those and the 0-5v output is pretty good about electrical noise.
05-31-11, 07:53 AM
#25
FWIW, the NGK AFX is built by ECM for NGK. The ECM AFM 1000 is the lab grade system used as the bogey in the quoted test. When I had used Innovate stuff I leaned on that test as evidence I was using good stuff. Once I got tired of readings that made no sense and grew tired of replacing sensors, I stopped using Innovate controllers and have not once regretted it.
To ARGHX's point, if I'm not mistaked, Innovate chose to control the sensor in a digital manner, while the sensor is designed for, and everyone else uses an analog method of control. This could be the reason they burn up sensors at a prodigious rate?
The NGK AFX is also recommend by Greg Banish. Greg has a pretty impressive resume. I trust what he has to say.
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13962
To ARGHX's point, if I'm not mistaked, Innovate chose to control the sensor in a digital manner, while the sensor is designed for, and everyone else uses an analog method of control. This could be the reason they burn up sensors at a prodigious rate?
The NGK AFX is also recommend by Greg Banish. Greg has a pretty impressive resume. I trust what he has to say.
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13962
Last edited by C. Ludwig; 05-31-11 at 07:56 AM.