Opinions on my FD3 single turbo build Spec Please!
11-11-08, 02:57 PM
#1
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Opinions on my FD3 single turbo build Spec Please!
Hi Guy's,
Hoping you can give some tips and advice on my single turbo build plans.. It's nothing extravagent just looking for around 400-420bhp at the flywheel.
I have been posting on UK sites but firstly people are not familiar with the master power turbo's and secondly they are generally not too forthcoming with information! So I thought I'd give it a try here and see how I get on!
Like I say I am aiming for somewhere around 400bhp gross power. maybe a little more? I am going for a Master Power GT37 (aka 60-1) turbo with a 0.96 A/R Reflow housing and T4 fitting. I am guessing I will need to run around 1.0-1.2 bar but I certainly don't want to go crazy or stress the motor too much for a few hp! The base engine is a sotck motor with stock ports at this stage.
To go with this I was planning on 1off 50mm external wastegate and one off Apexi Twin Chamber BOV's?(or will I need two of these?) I have a pair but I am also working on another project which will need one/two!
For fueling I have got a second set of 850cc injectors to replace my stock primaries and if I need I have a spare set of 850cc injectors I could put in the manifold? Will I need these for what I am aiming for?
If so how do you wire them up? I will be running an Apexi Power FC by the way. Do I piggy back the extra injectors straight off the harness of the secondary ones?
Will I need a bigger fuel pump and regulator? I guess that partly depends on the answer to above? If yes is something like a Walbro 255lh enough and simple to fit?
I found these in the states that sound good?!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3AIT&viewitem=
I assume I will need a FPR at least?
Currently I have a stock radiator and I don't seem to have any problems with heat.. should I get an ally one or will it be okay as is?
I have an aftermarket SMIC.. think it may be Greddy can't remember off hand.
To transfer all this to the tarmac I have a 6 puck racing clutch!! Hope it's not too harsh a ride!
Would really appreciate some feedback. Budget is getting a bit tight so need to plan carefully!
Thank you
Lee
Hoping you can give some tips and advice on my single turbo build plans.. It's nothing extravagent just looking for around 400-420bhp at the flywheel.
I have been posting on UK sites but firstly people are not familiar with the master power turbo's and secondly they are generally not too forthcoming with information! So I thought I'd give it a try here and see how I get on!
Like I say I am aiming for somewhere around 400bhp gross power. maybe a little more? I am going for a Master Power GT37 (aka 60-1) turbo with a 0.96 A/R Reflow housing and T4 fitting. I am guessing I will need to run around 1.0-1.2 bar but I certainly don't want to go crazy or stress the motor too much for a few hp! The base engine is a sotck motor with stock ports at this stage.
To go with this I was planning on 1off 50mm external wastegate and one off Apexi Twin Chamber BOV's?(or will I need two of these?) I have a pair but I am also working on another project which will need one/two!
For fueling I have got a second set of 850cc injectors to replace my stock primaries and if I need I have a spare set of 850cc injectors I could put in the manifold? Will I need these for what I am aiming for?
If so how do you wire them up? I will be running an Apexi Power FC by the way. Do I piggy back the extra injectors straight off the harness of the secondary ones?
Will I need a bigger fuel pump and regulator? I guess that partly depends on the answer to above? If yes is something like a Walbro 255lh enough and simple to fit?
I found these in the states that sound good?!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3AIT&viewitem=
I assume I will need a FPR at least?
Currently I have a stock radiator and I don't seem to have any problems with heat.. should I get an ally one or will it be okay as is?
I have an aftermarket SMIC.. think it may be Greddy can't remember off hand.
To transfer all this to the tarmac I have a 6 puck racing clutch!! Hope it's not too harsh a ride!
Would really appreciate some feedback. Budget is getting a bit tight so need to plan carefully!
Thank you
Lee
11-11-08, 03:08 PM
#2
Bosozoomku
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Speaking from experience, if you plan on using this car mostly on the street, you'd be doing yourself a favor to go with a sprung-hub clutch. I had an ACT 6 puck ceramic unsprung clutch with Xtreme pressure plate in my old car. Sure, it hooked up great!... But it was a royal PITA parking and in traffic. Consider a full street disc with a heavy pressure plate, it will hold the power fine and allow a little slip for street driving.
Also, the turbo kit I was running on that car included two extra injectors plumbed into the intake tract and controlled by a piggyback comp. I wouldn't recommend this setup, it's also a PITA. I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer here, just speaking from experience
. Consider upgrading your primary and secondary injectors (at your desired power level) instead of adding injectors.
Also, the turbo kit I was running on that car included two extra injectors plumbed into the intake tract and controlled by a piggyback comp. I wouldn't recommend this setup, it's also a PITA. I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer here, just speaking from experience
. Consider upgrading your primary and secondary injectors (at your desired power level) instead of adding injectors.
Last edited by TimeMachine; 11-11-08 at 03:11 PM.
11-11-08, 04:16 PM
#4
turbo looks good should get you real close to 400whp
Your fuel system isnt really up to the task tho. 850's all around will run out of. I would look for a set of 1680 for your secondarys and run 550 for primarys, Or 1300 secondary and 550 primary. The walbro 255 is on the small side. The Denso supra pump when rewired is one good option. or do a google search for 'kenne bell boost a pump' Im running a walbro 255 with a boost a pump and it works great.
As already said the clutch will hold whatever, but will be harsh on the street. I had a sprung 6 puck and hated it. Now i run a full disc and heavy duty pp and it still works well but is way nicer to drive.
Your fuel system isnt really up to the task tho. 850's all around will run out of. I would look for a set of 1680 for your secondarys and run 550 for primarys, Or 1300 secondary and 550 primary. The walbro 255 is on the small side. The Denso supra pump when rewired is one good option. or do a google search for 'kenne bell boost a pump' Im running a walbro 255 with a boost a pump and it works great.
As already said the clutch will hold whatever, but will be harsh on the street. I had a sprung 6 puck and hated it. Now i run a full disc and heavy duty pp and it still works well but is way nicer to drive.
11-11-08, 04:40 PM
#5
you will only need one bov..
4 x 850's won't work, as stated above you need 550/1300 or 550/1680, and trying to run two extra injectors with what you want is not necessary.
A denso fuel pump is a much better choice than the walbro. The walbro just will not be enough. A denso feeds my system just fine (850cc/1680cc) and I only boost 1bar and see more hp than your goals. It drops right in no problem. You will also need an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator.
I think your IC will be ok, just monitor AIT's and upgrade if necessary. Make sure it is ducted well. To also help with this make sure you wrap the dp and get a turbo blanket or some other type of heat shielding as the heat of the exhaust will definately increase intake temps.
I would upgrade the radiator. It is never a bad idea, just a reliability modification on the rotary more than anything.
The ACT suggested in post #2 would be a much nicer choice than your original plan.
4 x 850's won't work, as stated above you need 550/1300 or 550/1680, and trying to run two extra injectors with what you want is not necessary.
A denso fuel pump is a much better choice than the walbro. The walbro just will not be enough. A denso feeds my system just fine (850cc/1680cc) and I only boost 1bar and see more hp than your goals. It drops right in no problem. You will also need an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator.
I think your IC will be ok, just monitor AIT's and upgrade if necessary. Make sure it is ducted well. To also help with this make sure you wrap the dp and get a turbo blanket or some other type of heat shielding as the heat of the exhaust will definately increase intake temps.
I would upgrade the radiator. It is never a bad idea, just a reliability modification on the rotary more than anything.
The ACT suggested in post #2 would be a much nicer choice than your original plan.
Last edited by oo7arkman; 11-11-08 at 04:42 PM.
11-12-08, 02:55 PM
#7
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Thanks for the positive replies guys' nice to now I am heading in the general right direction..
First tick is for turbo! Which is great..
So doubts on fuelling.. I mentioned about the 6off 850's as I have 6.. I think I have 8 infact! But anyway.. Cost wise I figured it would be a lot cheaper to mod the inlet manifold (I know a friendly machine shop!) to take them depending on how easy they are to wire up and run through a Power FC ECU?
What 1680cc injectors do you guy's run and how much are they?? all the ones I have seen mean you also need to get a top feed adaptor rail which is further expense? If I can 4 large enough injectors at a sensible cost then fine i'll go for that! Clearly an easier option at least.
Other point was fuel pumps.. Is the denso supra pump sothing I could get from a breakers? which model supra? what lh rating are they? Is the re-wiring and fitting simple enough? Does anyone know if this would fit in an R33 skyline as well?? Another project I am working on shortly! (sorry to poison the thread!)
I thought a FPR would be needed.. any recommendations?? I have seen plenty on ebay cheap.. are they all as good as the next or should I steer clear of the real cheap ones?
As for my clutch I got a XTD stage 3 6 puck with a sprung centre.. I was well aware I did not want a solid plate and have bought it on recommendation that it is not too heavy for street use!? I hope!! Will find out after the weekend if all goes to plan!
I can confirm I meant 1 quantity (1 off) with the BOV.. most definately a genuine Apexi part!
oo7arkman mentioned about monitoring the AIT.. I presume that is Air Intake Temp? there is not standard sensor or that is there?? Personally I wouldn't know what temp was bad!! Can you monitor it from the exhaust temp instead? surely the general water and oil temp would be high if the engine ran hot? I do have a vented AD9 bonnet which should help the cause there anyway. And f possible I'll try and put some heat deflection between the turbo and intake or get the intake down by a inlet or something.
Check this link you can see the beast so far!! and where it came from!
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forum...ad.php?t=52966
Thanks agan
Lee
First tick is for turbo! Which is great..
So doubts on fuelling.. I mentioned about the 6off 850's as I have 6.. I think I have 8 infact! But anyway.. Cost wise I figured it would be a lot cheaper to mod the inlet manifold (I know a friendly machine shop!) to take them depending on how easy they are to wire up and run through a Power FC ECU?
What 1680cc injectors do you guy's run and how much are they?? all the ones I have seen mean you also need to get a top feed adaptor rail which is further expense? If I can 4 large enough injectors at a sensible cost then fine i'll go for that! Clearly an easier option at least.
Other point was fuel pumps.. Is the denso supra pump sothing I could get from a breakers? which model supra? what lh rating are they? Is the re-wiring and fitting simple enough? Does anyone know if this would fit in an R33 skyline as well?? Another project I am working on shortly! (sorry to poison the thread!)
I thought a FPR would be needed.. any recommendations?? I have seen plenty on ebay cheap.. are they all as good as the next or should I steer clear of the real cheap ones?
As for my clutch I got a XTD stage 3 6 puck with a sprung centre.. I was well aware I did not want a solid plate and have bought it on recommendation that it is not too heavy for street use!? I hope!! Will find out after the weekend if all goes to plan!
I can confirm I meant 1 quantity (1 off) with the BOV.. most definately a genuine Apexi part!
oo7arkman mentioned about monitoring the AIT.. I presume that is Air Intake Temp? there is not standard sensor or that is there?? Personally I wouldn't know what temp was bad!! Can you monitor it from the exhaust temp instead? surely the general water and oil temp would be high if the engine ran hot? I do have a vented AD9 bonnet which should help the cause there anyway. And f possible I'll try and put some heat deflection between the turbo and intake or get the intake down by a inlet or something.
Check this link you can see the beast so far!! and where it came from!
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forum...ad.php?t=52966
Thanks agan
Lee
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11-12-08, 10:19 PM
#8
Check out most anywhere for the 1680(1600)cc injectors. They are not that bad. Yes you will need a top feed fuel rail but if you have a buddy at a machine shop that should be a relatively easy task OR they are pretty cheap too. Keith with KG parts makes a very nice product that I use myself (and so do a LOT of members on here). I cannot say for sure, but I do not think the power fc will allow you to controll all 6 injectors separately if you insist in going that route. Microtech is a better option for those running more than 4.
The denso fuel pump drops right in. Takes about 10 minutes.RX7store.net has the pump as do most other shops you can find on here. The re-wiring mentioned is a separate idea to allow the pump to recieve a full 12v of power. Do a search on here and you will find the "how to" on it. It is very cheap and relatively simple.
I use an aeromotive FPR. They are not that expensive and it works fine...
AIT.. yes air intake temp. This will have effect on the computer mixing the fuel. If it gets heat soaked from too much heat from the turbo/dp it will cause falsely elevated AIT's. Yes there is a factory sensor that you will be able to read on the commander. This was just another suggestion. Turbo blanket and wrapping the downpipe are usually sufficient.
Yeah, you only need one BOV. Closer to the TB the better. Most just weld the flange on between the ic and the greddy elbow.
The denso fuel pump drops right in. Takes about 10 minutes.RX7store.net has the pump as do most other shops you can find on here. The re-wiring mentioned is a separate idea to allow the pump to recieve a full 12v of power. Do a search on here and you will find the "how to" on it. It is very cheap and relatively simple.
I use an aeromotive FPR. They are not that expensive and it works fine...
AIT.. yes air intake temp. This will have effect on the computer mixing the fuel. If it gets heat soaked from too much heat from the turbo/dp it will cause falsely elevated AIT's. Yes there is a factory sensor that you will be able to read on the commander. This was just another suggestion. Turbo blanket and wrapping the downpipe are usually sufficient.
Yeah, you only need one BOV. Closer to the TB the better. Most just weld the flange on between the ic and the greddy elbow.
Last edited by oo7arkman; 11-12-08 at 10:23 PM.
11-13-08, 12:07 AM
#9
since you will need an upgraded secondary fuel rail you might as well go for the FPR, but a fuel pump upgrade (on say a 550/1300 setup) does not automatically mean you need a new FPR. I've had no trouble learning out idle with a Denso Cosmo pump and stock primary's with stock FPR.
As far as intake temps are concerned, just get an upgraded intercooler and you'll be fine. A front mount intercooler will make it harder to keep water temps down though, so your other options are a bigger SMIC or a v mount. The whole heatsoaking AIT sensor thing is more of an irritating thing for your tuner to deal with. It's just trickier to get consistent AFR's and driveability with the AIT sensor in the stock location.
As far as intake temps are concerned, just get an upgraded intercooler and you'll be fine. A front mount intercooler will make it harder to keep water temps down though, so your other options are a bigger SMIC or a v mount. The whole heatsoaking AIT sensor thing is more of an irritating thing for your tuner to deal with. It's just trickier to get consistent AFR's and driveability with the AIT sensor in the stock location.
11-13-08, 03:27 PM
#10
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
I need to look into injectors and a fuel rail then by the sound of it! Is the message to stay away from Cheap FPR's? There are plenty around. I would say the aeromotive is mid range but there are some for like half the price or less?!
If running 6 injectors my logic was if you spliced the wires together from the secondaries so you had the one signal operating doube the injectors then as far as fuel is concerned yu would have the equivalent of an 1700cc injector? Do gather it wouldn't work like that or no one has tried?!
Lee
If running 6 injectors my logic was if you spliced the wires together from the secondaries so you had the one signal operating doube the injectors then as far as fuel is concerned yu would have the equivalent of an 1700cc injector? Do gather it wouldn't work like that or no one has tried?!
Lee
11-13-08, 04:04 PM
#11
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
okay.. so Bosch 1600cc injectors about $100 each so far. But now I found these?? What's the difference? Will any of them do or are they the wrong fitting? What impedence do I need? Some are low and some are high?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bosch...Q5fAccessories
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bosch-1600cc-160...1%7C240%3A1318
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BAD-B...Q5fAccessories
average FPR $80. Aeromotive one $150 Aeromotive copy $35?!
Supra pump I have found for $150 plus shipping.. But I have aso found some mixed reviews as to whether it is better than the walbro which is only $100? Anymore opinions on that or is it more the fact it plugs straight in? Fuel rail $140. or I could probably get one made for $70 or fab one out of another top feed rail from another car?! for almost free!
Its not as bad as I thought.. but money is money!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bosch...Q5fAccessories
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bosch-1600cc-160...1%7C240%3A1318
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BAD-B...Q5fAccessories
average FPR $80. Aeromotive one $150 Aeromotive copy $35?!
Supra pump I have found for $150 plus shipping.. But I have aso found some mixed reviews as to whether it is better than the walbro which is only $100? Anymore opinions on that or is it more the fact it plugs straight in? Fuel rail $140. or I could probably get one made for $70 or fab one out of another top feed rail from another car?! for almost free!
Its not as bad as I thought.. but money is money!
11-13-08, 09:19 PM
#12
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
If you want a kit that is designed for the FD so you can be sure that it fits and it works, order from www.kgparts.com, his prices are very reasonable and it'll save you lots of headaches.
11-14-08, 07:33 AM
#13
Take it from someone that learned the hard way with that cheap stuff. Don't buy anything that is a copy, replica, generic, etc... because they will break! Go with the right one at first and you will save money in the long run. You don't want something like fuel supply to lean out, wastegate to get stuck closed, or anything else that can cause damage to the motor that will leave you stranded and spending more money on fixing something very expensive plus having to replace the cheap part that went out if you would have just spent the few extra bucks on the good part in the first place.
11-14-08, 05:04 PM
#14
turbo is good. and should net you right around 400 to the wheels at 1 bar.
You probably could run another set of 850cc injectors for a total of 1700cc as the secondaries. i've seen some maps with it done so i know it must be possible. I see nothing wrong with doing it this way if you are confident you can get it done, and you dont mind experimenting a little with tuning. The transition might be a little harder to tune but there isnt a big difference between 1700 and 1680cc. I'm pretty sure splicing into the secondary injectors and just adding 2 more will work. And should be within safe limits of the injector circuit with them all being high impedance. The stock FPR should work too provided the pump doesnt outflow it and cause idle to be rich. You could always run 550 primaries and the 4 850 secondaries to help with getting your idle leaned out. I think since you have the injectors, and can get it done fairly cheap you should go for it and report back. Some of the aussie guys used to run systems like this alot IIRC.
I got a whole secondary KG system + regulator for around $350 from a forum member. I run 550/1680cc with the kg rail and aeromotive FPR. . Regardless of what regulator you get make sure its a rising rate 1:1. I really like my aeromotive and would recommend it. I have no experience with anything else. But it does its job and looks good.
If you rewire your fuel pump then the walbro should be fine. Many guys successfully run walbro's for that power level. The walbro is just more particular with getting a good strong voltage source.
Getting the stock 850's bored out to 1200-1300cc is another injector alternative but they have higher failure rates and are expensive. in the end you end up spending almost as much with them, get less fuel, less reliability and if they fail they are more expensive to replace. I do not recommend this route. But on the plus side they drop right in and should provide you with enough fuel for your power goals.
Never heard of badboy injectors. So i would be weary.
Provided the others are true bosch they should be fine. i have seen bosch 1680cc for as low as around $75 a piece new.
You probably could run another set of 850cc injectors for a total of 1700cc as the secondaries. i've seen some maps with it done so i know it must be possible. I see nothing wrong with doing it this way if you are confident you can get it done, and you dont mind experimenting a little with tuning. The transition might be a little harder to tune but there isnt a big difference between 1700 and 1680cc. I'm pretty sure splicing into the secondary injectors and just adding 2 more will work. And should be within safe limits of the injector circuit with them all being high impedance. The stock FPR should work too provided the pump doesnt outflow it and cause idle to be rich. You could always run 550 primaries and the 4 850 secondaries to help with getting your idle leaned out. I think since you have the injectors, and can get it done fairly cheap you should go for it and report back. Some of the aussie guys used to run systems like this alot IIRC.
I got a whole secondary KG system + regulator for around $350 from a forum member. I run 550/1680cc with the kg rail and aeromotive FPR. . Regardless of what regulator you get make sure its a rising rate 1:1. I really like my aeromotive and would recommend it. I have no experience with anything else. But it does its job and looks good.
If you rewire your fuel pump then the walbro should be fine. Many guys successfully run walbro's for that power level. The walbro is just more particular with getting a good strong voltage source.
Getting the stock 850's bored out to 1200-1300cc is another injector alternative but they have higher failure rates and are expensive. in the end you end up spending almost as much with them, get less fuel, less reliability and if they fail they are more expensive to replace. I do not recommend this route. But on the plus side they drop right in and should provide you with enough fuel for your power goals.
Never heard of badboy injectors. So i would be weary.
Provided the others are true bosch they should be fine. i have seen bosch 1680cc for as low as around $75 a piece new.
11-16-08, 06:30 AM
#15
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Thanks Dudemaaan!
Like it!! I am all up for trying something different and would most definately report back... I'll talk to the guy I was intending to do my tunning in the UK and see what he says regards the whole idea and whether running the Stock primaries woul be a better bet..
I think i'll get a FPR to be safe on not rely on the stock one.. Pump wise i'll see what comes up!
Like it!! I am all up for trying something different and would most definately report back... I'll talk to the guy I was intending to do my tunning in the UK and see what he says regards the whole idea and whether running the Stock primaries woul be a better bet..
I think i'll get a FPR to be safe on not rely on the stock one.. Pump wise i'll see what comes up!
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