New long runner divided manifold for GTX3582R
07-31-12, 02:02 PM
#1
New long runner divided manifold for GTX3582R
Well after quite a bit of research, i've decided to design my own manifold utilizing a twin scroll gtx3582R, completely divided with dual wastegates and a hanging type turbo mount. I'm hoping the longer runners will aid in a better mid-range hp/tq curve. If I were to do it again i'd use 2 tial MSV 38'as they're much more compact. But I already have the synapse 50's and i've Always used synapse gates and never had a problem with them
Both gates have the green 60lb preload and main springs. I'll post more pics when the manifold get's fully welded, and dyno numbers when the time comes in a months time or so.. Thanks and enjoy!
Both gates have the green 60lb preload and main springs. I'll post more pics when the manifold get's fully welded, and dyno numbers when the time comes in a months time or so.. Thanks and enjoy!
07-31-12, 02:28 PM
#2
p.s...Let the constructive critisizm begin.. But before you guys flame me... remember TwinsTurbo has had excellent results with their long runner manifold... It's what I wanted to do to try to put some skeptics to rest about power/response and useable power under the curve.
07-31-12, 04:55 PM
#3
F-IT
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You'll love it!! We have built some long runner manifolds like that in the past(24"+) and they have a very smooth transition into the power almost like a piston car and not so on/off like most rotaries. Looks awesome man!!! Doing stuff like this for yourself to put internet beliefs to quiet are the only way. keep it up!
08-02-12, 06:54 AM
#7
Wastegate John
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I just think you have too many variables to decisively make a statement like "the long runner manifold improved my mid range power" You changed too many things with this build.
But I think you know my position on long runner manifolds. I like short.
But I think you know my position on long runner manifolds. I like short.
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08-02-12, 01:33 PM
#10
Wastegate John
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^^ You havent made that statement yet, (I should have been more clear with what I meant). I am saying that in the future after the dyno numbers are in how will you know that the long runner manifold is what made the difference.
By variables I mean, the, UIM, LIM, Turbo Manifold, manifold piping diameter, Turbo, Intake setup, Intercooler setup, intercooler piping diameter, Engine porting, wastegate placement, and probably some other things I am not thinking of. As I am sure you know, all of these things affect power.
I just find it interesting you are trying something new to prove a point but when you finish you will not prove anything. It is all still theory because you will be unable to prove what made the difference because of everything that has been changed.
By variables I mean, the, UIM, LIM, Turbo Manifold, manifold piping diameter, Turbo, Intake setup, Intercooler setup, intercooler piping diameter, Engine porting, wastegate placement, and probably some other things I am not thinking of. As I am sure you know, all of these things affect power.
I just find it interesting you are trying something new to prove a point but when you finish you will not prove anything. It is all still theory because you will be unable to prove what made the difference because of everything that has been changed.
Last edited by RENESISFD; 08-02-12 at 01:42 PM.
08-02-12, 10:31 PM
#11
well If all the research i did on intake and exhaust manifold runner size/diameter/over-all length is correct.... i'll simply compare my numbers to what other's have gotten. And i'll know that my set up got me what I was looking for.... which is a better overall powerband with as close a 50/50 hp to curve ratio as possible. If it doesn't.. at least i'll have one hell of a different looking engine bay =-)
The point that i'm trying to prove will be that Long runner manifolds can and will produce just as much response as a shorty mani.... Exhaust manifolds have a lot to do with turbo response. just because my intake manifold is different doesn't necessarily mean my entire Dyno plot will be absolutely alien or crazy different from your average rotary. The motor is street ported. 2.5 in piping will be used for charge and intake.. the turbo may have a 4" dp snorkeling into a 3in cat back...but that may be in a few months time depending on my first dyno numbers. The first dyno will be done on a 3" straight through design. If my dyno numbers yield good efficient numbers and a close 50/50 ratio... It'll prove that it works... And truthfully... that's all I really care about.
The point that i'm trying to prove will be that Long runner manifolds can and will produce just as much response as a shorty mani.... Exhaust manifolds have a lot to do with turbo response. just because my intake manifold is different doesn't necessarily mean my entire Dyno plot will be absolutely alien or crazy different from your average rotary. The motor is street ported. 2.5 in piping will be used for charge and intake.. the turbo may have a 4" dp snorkeling into a 3in cat back...but that may be in a few months time depending on my first dyno numbers. The first dyno will be done on a 3" straight through design. If my dyno numbers yield good efficient numbers and a close 50/50 ratio... It'll prove that it works... And truthfully... that's all I really care about.
08-03-12, 12:08 PM
#13
If nothing else the exhaust manifold looks super sexy!
I could see response dropping a bit, but I really doubt peak boost will come later. You could play with richness and timing during spool to get more manifold expansion now that you have all that extra runner volume to play with.
I bet it works great.
I could see response dropping a bit, but I really doubt peak boost will come later. You could play with richness and timing during spool to get more manifold expansion now that you have all that extra runner volume to play with.
I bet it works great.
08-03-12, 11:55 PM
#15
Are you seriously going to run your setup as pictured?
Your manifold and turbo are dangerously close to your fuel line.
I am surprised no comments about this^
I also thing your manifold will produce some SERIOUS engine bay heat....more potential melting of stuff and chance of stuff catching on fire..
Your manifold and turbo are dangerously close to your fuel line.
I am surprised no comments about this^
I also thing your manifold will produce some SERIOUS engine bay heat....more potential melting of stuff and chance of stuff catching on fire..
Last edited by Japan2LA; 08-03-12 at 11:59 PM.
08-04-12, 03:03 AM
#16
^ I actually put it that close to keep the fuel warm....
uggggghh yea.. Pffffft relax man. Minor tweaks but yes this is the final mock. the fuel line will be re-routed and covered with only the best dei. And ever heard of a heat shield? And...not to be a smart ***...but there's nothing in the vacinity made of anything that would be close to melting.
uggggghh yea.. Pffffft relax man. Minor tweaks but yes this is the final mock. the fuel line will be re-routed and covered with only the best dei. And ever heard of a heat shield? And...not to be a smart ***...but there's nothing in the vacinity made of anything that would be close to melting.
08-04-12, 07:01 AM
#17
Wastegate John
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well If all the research i did on intake and exhaust manifold runner size/diameter/over-all length is correct.... i'll simply compare my numbers to what other's have gotten. And i'll know that my set up got me what I was looking for.... which is a better overall powerband with as close a 50/50 hp to curve ratio as possible. If it doesn't.. at least i'll have one hell of a different looking engine bay =-)
The point that i'm trying to prove will be that Long runner manifolds can and will produce just as much response as a shorty mani.... Exhaust manifolds have a lot to do with turbo response. just because my intake manifold is different doesn't necessarily mean my entire Dyno plot will be absolutely alien or crazy different from your average rotary. The motor is street ported. 2.5 in piping will be used for charge and intake.. the turbo may have a 4" dp snorkeling into a 3in cat back...but that may be in a few months time depending on my first dyno numbers. The first dyno will be done on a 3" straight through design. If my dyno numbers yield good efficient numbers and a close 50/50 ratio... It'll prove that it works... And truthfully... that's all I really care about.
The point that i'm trying to prove will be that Long runner manifolds can and will produce just as much response as a shorty mani.... Exhaust manifolds have a lot to do with turbo response. just because my intake manifold is different doesn't necessarily mean my entire Dyno plot will be absolutely alien or crazy different from your average rotary. The motor is street ported. 2.5 in piping will be used for charge and intake.. the turbo may have a 4" dp snorkeling into a 3in cat back...but that may be in a few months time depending on my first dyno numbers. The first dyno will be done on a 3" straight through design. If my dyno numbers yield good efficient numbers and a close 50/50 ratio... It'll prove that it works... And truthfully... that's all I really care about.
Basically you are making all of these changes for midrange power so how do you know all of the changes actually increased your midrange power, maybe the intake manifold and porting is what is making the difference. Thats all I am saying.
But you are right, It does look good.
I am assuming the wastegates will be open dump?
Do you have any pics of the manifold out of the car? What A/R is on the turbo? I dont remember if you posted it or not.
08-04-12, 09:26 AM
#18
Well the motor has a CPR port (Howard Coleman) the wastegates will in fact be open dump. Turbo is a gtx3582R divided A/R 1.06. Technically my hypothesis is just that.. ”an educated guess.” But at the same time, looking at your average 35R dyno on his motors will give you an idea of what's normal or average. Other contributing factors will be there but if there are significant enough differences in the plot compared to other CPR street Ports with 35r's ....we'll really have no other choice but to assume its either the intake manifold or turbo manifold. But as I've stated before....Because of my research on the matter,... My guess is it'd be a combination of the two.
08-05-12, 06:04 PM
#21
Are you changing the LIM cause from what I see in the pics it looks stock?
Few other thoughts on that UIM. Would you not do better to shorten it as it seems longer than stock?? a few centimeters is the difference between the torque falling off hard 6,000rpm or carrying to 8,000rpm and higher. Doing away away with the pulse reversion, is that not detimenal to low end torque as well.
With your street port, wouldn't you want the intake runners shorter to take advantage of the ports, with a ported engine, you are going to want to rev it more to make power, if you can, shift the torque band so it stays flat to 8,500rpm.
Examples of Cars with sp and rew manifolds.
1993 Mazda RX-7 gt35r turbo Dyno Results Graphs Hosepower - DragTimes.com
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...-sheet-644970/
These guys didn't even rev pass 7,500, with a sp you want to rev to 8,500 maybe 9,000 to take advantage of the port.
I wouldn't worry about making torque at 3,000 4,000 rpm, Boost pressure makes tq and you have a turbo that should be spooled by then. Plus if you let the rpm drop that low, shift.
If you can make tq flat from 5,500 to 8,500+, that would be nice. My thinking is that most stock rew manifolds dyno sheets, tq falls off after 6,500. With Longer than stock runners, won't your tq from 6,500 fall off more than it already does??? .
That longer exhaut mainfold will make throttle/boost response slower. But it might make it easier to control off corners, not being so on/off. I haven't seen any examples where it helped make more power, or affect the hp/tq curve.
Not trying to knock you, beautiful car and build. Just curious why you decided to use that intake/exhaut mani combo.
Few other thoughts on that UIM. Would you not do better to shorten it as it seems longer than stock?? a few centimeters is the difference between the torque falling off hard 6,000rpm or carrying to 8,000rpm and higher. Doing away away with the pulse reversion, is that not detimenal to low end torque as well.
With your street port, wouldn't you want the intake runners shorter to take advantage of the ports, with a ported engine, you are going to want to rev it more to make power, if you can, shift the torque band so it stays flat to 8,500rpm.
Examples of Cars with sp and rew manifolds.
1993 Mazda RX-7 gt35r turbo Dyno Results Graphs Hosepower - DragTimes.com
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...-sheet-644970/
These guys didn't even rev pass 7,500, with a sp you want to rev to 8,500 maybe 9,000 to take advantage of the port.
I wouldn't worry about making torque at 3,000 4,000 rpm, Boost pressure makes tq and you have a turbo that should be spooled by then. Plus if you let the rpm drop that low, shift.
If you can make tq flat from 5,500 to 8,500+, that would be nice. My thinking is that most stock rew manifolds dyno sheets, tq falls off after 6,500. With Longer than stock runners, won't your tq from 6,500 fall off more than it already does??? .
That longer exhaut mainfold will make throttle/boost response slower. But it might make it easier to control off corners, not being so on/off. I haven't seen any examples where it helped make more power, or affect the hp/tq curve.
Not trying to knock you, beautiful car and build. Just curious why you decided to use that intake/exhaut mani combo.
I understand what RenesisFD is saying. That being said, are your wastegate open dumping through the hood or something? I don't see how you'll have any room for dump tubes.
08-06-12, 09:58 AM
#23
I think it'll work fine. Looks cool too.
After you get it all done, and have had fun with it for a little while, it'd be cool to slap on a shorter setup (maybe borrow someone's for a week), and see what the difference is. You'd probably only need to make one new charge pipe (turbo to IC), and if you can borrow someones setup (including exhaust), you could slap it on with your turbo and have it tuned and see the comparison.
I'm going to do that for mine. I've got an extra pipe that connects the turbo to the intercooler, which will completely bypass the supercharger (my supercharger has a clutch so I can turn it off when doing this). That way I can see what the true difference really is.
I'm also going to do a tune with the supercharger by itself. Of course, the car will still have a turbo on it, so it won't be a 100% true analysis of a stand alone supercharger, the exhaust will still have some back pressure from the turbo. But it will still be cool to see.
After you get it all done, and have had fun with it for a little while, it'd be cool to slap on a shorter setup (maybe borrow someone's for a week), and see what the difference is. You'd probably only need to make one new charge pipe (turbo to IC), and if you can borrow someones setup (including exhaust), you could slap it on with your turbo and have it tuned and see the comparison.
I'm going to do that for mine. I've got an extra pipe that connects the turbo to the intercooler, which will completely bypass the supercharger (my supercharger has a clutch so I can turn it off when doing this). That way I can see what the true difference really is.
I'm also going to do a tune with the supercharger by itself. Of course, the car will still have a turbo on it, so it won't be a 100% true analysis of a stand alone supercharger, the exhaust will still have some back pressure from the turbo. But it will still be cool to see.
08-06-12, 10:05 AM
#24
Vent the wastegates out the hood!
LOL, Mr. Parker don't get too discouraged by criticism. If you're in this to learn something you're guaranteed success. On the other hand if you're in this to revolutionize things you'll learn what many of us avid fabricators know; there's always a hater or disbeliever out there and nothing will ever be perfect (unless it's oem
) Best of luck to you my friend!
LOL, Mr. Parker don't get too discouraged by criticism. If you're in this to learn something you're guaranteed success. On the other hand if you're in this to revolutionize things you'll learn what many of us avid fabricators know; there's always a hater or disbeliever out there and nothing will ever be perfect (unless it's oem
) Best of luck to you my friend!
08-06-12, 01:36 PM
#25
If nothing else the exhaust manifold looks super sexy!
I could see response dropping a bit, but I really doubt peak boost will come later. You could play with richness and timing during spool to get more manifold expansion now that you have all that extra runner volume to play with.
I bet it works great.
I could see response dropping a bit, but I really doubt peak boost will come later. You could play with richness and timing during spool to get more manifold expansion now that you have all that extra runner volume to play with.
I bet it works great.
Your right.. response will most likely suffer slightly.. but when I'm on the track.. I'll be in boost the whole time.. and I'll have a much smoother power delivery I'm going to need to find a tuner who really knows what they're doing with this one. If he weren't on the east coast.. i'd have elliotte/turblown tune it. But right now i'm looking at Church's in Los Angeles or possibly even Nelson at Rotary resurrection as well. We'll see, i'll have to look into it more.The waste gates can be clocked 180 degrees and there is actually quite a bit of room to run them down and back under the car more traditionally. But no lie... I have been thinking of popping them straight up out of the hood.
I think it'll work fine. Looks cool too.
After you get it all done, and have had fun with it for a little while, it'd be cool to slap on a shorter setup (maybe borrow someone's for a week), and see what the difference is. You'd probably only need to make one new charge pipe (turbo to IC), and if you can borrow someones setup (including exhaust), you could slap it on with your turbo and have it tuned and see the comparison.
I'm going to do that for mine. I've got an extra pipe that connects the turbo to the intercooler, which will completely bypass the supercharger (my supercharger has a clutch so I can turn it off when doing this). That way I can see what the true difference really is.
I'm also going to do a tune with the supercharger by itself. Of course, the car will still have a turbo on it, so it won't be a 100% true analysis of a stand alone supercharger, the exhaust will still have some back pressure from the turbo. But it will still be cool to see.
After you get it all done, and have had fun with it for a little while, it'd be cool to slap on a shorter setup (maybe borrow someone's for a week), and see what the difference is. You'd probably only need to make one new charge pipe (turbo to IC), and if you can borrow someones setup (including exhaust), you could slap it on with your turbo and have it tuned and see the comparison.
I'm going to do that for mine. I've got an extra pipe that connects the turbo to the intercooler, which will completely bypass the supercharger (my supercharger has a clutch so I can turn it off when doing this). That way I can see what the true difference really is.
I'm also going to do a tune with the supercharger by itself. Of course, the car will still have a turbo on it, so it won't be a 100% true analysis of a stand alone supercharger, the exhaust will still have some back pressure from the turbo. But it will still be cool to see.
Vent the wastegates out the hood!
LOL, Mr. Parker don't get too discouraged by criticism. If you're in this to learn something you're guaranteed success. On the other hand if you're in this to revolutionize things you'll learn what many of us avid fabricators know; there's always a hater or disbeliever out there and nothing will ever be perfect (unless it's oem) Best of luck to you my friend!
LOL, Mr. Parker don't get too discouraged by criticism. If you're in this to learn something you're guaranteed success. On the other hand if you're in this to revolutionize things you'll learn what many of us avid fabricators know; there's always a hater or disbeliever out there and nothing will ever be perfect (unless it's oem
) Best of luck to you my friend!or I could just go with oem...
jk jk.. thanks Lance!