More about Widebands, leaded fuel , C16
12-22-06, 05:52 PM
#1
Stay tuned...
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: West Islip, Long Island NY
Posts: 2,917
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
More about Widebands, leaded fuel , C16
I'm posting to help others make the right decision when purchasing a wideband kit. Another forum member came to my house this weekend that will be running C16 and made the same mistake I did last year. A while back I bought the Innovate Wideband kit with the Bosch sensor. I like it a lot, it worked well. I mounted it too close to the turbo and started to get error codes saying it was too close. I then moved it but it was too late, I damaged the sensor. Let's call this sensor number 1. Keep in mind the time to jack the car up, take the downpipe off, tap a new hole, take to shop to get the new bung welded on etc.....
So I go out and get a new sensor. Now this worked great. I mounted it on the downpipe but closer to the midpipe. Things were great. Everyday I drive the car to and from work and loved the new sensor. All was good. I now needed to tune the car and added some C16 and after a short time it started reading lean and I added more fuel until yadayadayada, the sensor was toast, let's call this sensor number 2. As my luck has it, these things all happen to me before a huge event or something. Again with my luck, I kept adding fuel in the VE table and did not save the map and yadayadayada...
So I went on the Innovate forum and posted about it and was told it should be good up to 500 hours yadayadayada. So I went out and bought another bosch sensor but this time did not use it and just sold the unit with a brand new sensor. So I started doing some more research, more can add to this or correct me if I am wrong anywhere.
Most of the 'cheaper' wideband kits come with the Bosch sensor, the LSU4.2 sensor is most common. These sensors cost anywhere from $50-$90. These are great sensors if you are not going to be using leaded fuel. They do not tolerate heat very well and should be mounted a little further away. Making a copper heat sink will help as well.
Now, the better kits come with the NTK sensors. These sensors are way more durable and can tolerate heat very very well. These sensors cost anywhere from $250-300 just for the sensor alone, not the kit. There are 2 NTK sensors. There is an old school L1H1 and a newer L2H2. The L1H1 is no longer in production. I called a few manufactorers of wideband and asked about the various sensors, they all referred to the NTK L1H1 sensor as "bulletproof"
These L1H1 sensor costs more than the L2H2, about $50 more.
The L2H2 is also a great sensor and replaced the L1H1. If you are looking to get a wideband kit and plan on running leaded fuel, you should try to get a kit that uses an NTK sensor.
I ended up getting the FJO Wideband Kit with the older L1H1 setup. Others like JD (Boostn7), Rx794, JayNYC have been using this setup for years with no issues. I absolutely love it. I have gone through about 10 drums of C16 in the past few months and the sensor is holding up well. I have the sensor mounted in the same spot the Bosch was mounted in that burnt up. I drive the car daily (when it was warm) and the sensor is holding up excellent and works very very well.
The extra cost of any kits with the NTK sensor is well worth it in the long run if you run leaded fuel. The Innovate Kit cost me $400 when it first came out with the LC1. 2 sensors went bad which were $75 each. Total cost is $550 but hours of trying to get it right. The FJO kit or other kits using the NTK L2H2 cost roughly $650-$800 but will work well right out of the box.
To take the sensors up one more notch up is the NTK sensor that is hand balanced from the factory. (thanks Enzo250 for this info) These sensors are roughly $800-$1000 and used by more experienced tuners.
So in the end before buying a wideband look at the environment it will spend the most time in. If you are going to be using Leaded fuel,even sometimes, you might want to consider the NTK sensors. If you are going to be running pump gas all the time, then the Bosch sensors are perfect for you. If anything on this post is incorrect, please correct me or add to the thread.
Thanks
Anthony
So I go out and get a new sensor. Now this worked great. I mounted it on the downpipe but closer to the midpipe. Things were great. Everyday I drive the car to and from work and loved the new sensor. All was good. I now needed to tune the car and added some C16 and after a short time it started reading lean and I added more fuel until yadayadayada, the sensor was toast, let's call this sensor number 2. As my luck has it, these things all happen to me before a huge event or something. Again with my luck, I kept adding fuel in the VE table and did not save the map and yadayadayada...
So I went on the Innovate forum and posted about it and was told it should be good up to 500 hours yadayadayada. So I went out and bought another bosch sensor but this time did not use it and just sold the unit with a brand new sensor. So I started doing some more research, more can add to this or correct me if I am wrong anywhere.
Most of the 'cheaper' wideband kits come with the Bosch sensor, the LSU4.2 sensor is most common. These sensors cost anywhere from $50-$90. These are great sensors if you are not going to be using leaded fuel. They do not tolerate heat very well and should be mounted a little further away. Making a copper heat sink will help as well.
Now, the better kits come with the NTK sensors. These sensors are way more durable and can tolerate heat very very well. These sensors cost anywhere from $250-300 just for the sensor alone, not the kit. There are 2 NTK sensors. There is an old school L1H1 and a newer L2H2. The L1H1 is no longer in production. I called a few manufactorers of wideband and asked about the various sensors, they all referred to the NTK L1H1 sensor as "bulletproof"
These L1H1 sensor costs more than the L2H2, about $50 more.
The L2H2 is also a great sensor and replaced the L1H1. If you are looking to get a wideband kit and plan on running leaded fuel, you should try to get a kit that uses an NTK sensor.
I ended up getting the FJO Wideband Kit with the older L1H1 setup. Others like JD (Boostn7), Rx794, JayNYC have been using this setup for years with no issues. I absolutely love it. I have gone through about 10 drums of C16 in the past few months and the sensor is holding up well. I have the sensor mounted in the same spot the Bosch was mounted in that burnt up. I drive the car daily (when it was warm) and the sensor is holding up excellent and works very very well.
The extra cost of any kits with the NTK sensor is well worth it in the long run if you run leaded fuel. The Innovate Kit cost me $400 when it first came out with the LC1. 2 sensors went bad which were $75 each. Total cost is $550 but hours of trying to get it right. The FJO kit or other kits using the NTK L2H2 cost roughly $650-$800 but will work well right out of the box.
To take the sensors up one more notch up is the NTK sensor that is hand balanced from the factory. (thanks Enzo250 for this info) These sensors are roughly $800-$1000 and used by more experienced tuners.
So in the end before buying a wideband look at the environment it will spend the most time in. If you are going to be using Leaded fuel,even sometimes, you might want to consider the NTK sensors. If you are going to be running pump gas all the time, then the Bosch sensors are perfect for you. If anything on this post is incorrect, please correct me or add to the thread.
Thanks
Anthony
Last edited by AnthonyNYC; 12-22-06 at 05:59 PM.
12-22-06, 06:20 PM
#2
Originally Posted by AnthonyNYC
I'm posting to help others make the right decision when purchasing a wideband kit. Another forum member came to my house this weekend that will be running C16 and made the same mistake I did last year. A while back I bought the Innovate Wideband kit with the Bosch sensor. I like it a lot, it worked well. I mounted it too close to the turbo and started to get error codes saying it was too close. I then moved it but it was too late, I damaged the sensor. Let's call this sensor number 1. Keep in mind the time to jack the car up, take the downpipe off, tap a new hole, take to shop to get the new bung welded on etc.....
So I go out and get a new sensor. Now this worked great. I mounted it on the downpipe but closer to the midpipe. Things were great. Everyday I drive the car to and from work and loved the new sensor. All was good. I now needed to tune the car and added some C16 and after a short time it started reading lean and I added more fuel until yadayadayada, the sensor was toast, let's call this sensor number 2. As my luck has it, these things all happen to me before a huge event or something. Again with my luck, I kept adding fuel in the VE table and did not save the map and yadayadayada...
So I went on the Innovate forum and posted about it and was told it should be good up to 500 hours yadayadayada. So I went out and bought another bosch sensor but this time did not use it and just sold the unit with a brand new sensor. So I started doing some more research, more can add to this or correct me if I am wrong anywhere.
Most of the 'cheaper' wideband kits come with the Bosch sensor, the LSU4.2 sensor is most common. These sensors cost anywhere from $50-$90. These are great sensors if you are not going to be using leaded fuel. They do not tolerate heat very well and should be mounted a little further away. Making a copper heat sink will help as well.
Now, the better kits come with the NTK sensors. These sensors are way more durable and can tolerate heat very very well. These sensors cost anywhere from $250-300 just for the sensor alone, not the kit. There are 2 NTK sensors. There is an old school L1H1 and a newer L2H2. The L1H1 is no longer in production. I called a few manufactorers of wideband and asked about the various sensors, they all referred to the NTK L1H1 sensor as "bulletproof"
These L1H1 sensor costs more than the L2H2, about $50 more.
The L2H2 is also a great sensor and replaced the L1H1. If you are looking to get a wideband kit and plan on running leaded fuel, you should try to get a kit that uses an NTK sensor.
I ended up getting the FJO Wideband Kit with the older L1H1 setup. Others like JD (Boostn7), Rx794, JayNYC have been using this setup for years with no issues. I absolutely love it. I have gone through about 10 drums of C16 in the past few months and the sensor is holding up well. I have the sensor mounted in the same spot the Bosch was mounted in that burnt up. I drive the car daily (when it was warm) and the sensor is holding up excellent and works very very well.
The extra cost of any kits with the NTK sensor is well worth it in the long run if you run leaded fuel. The Innovate Kit cost me $400 when it first came out with the LC1. 2 sensors went bad which were $75 each. Total cost is $550 but hours of trying to get it right. The FJO kit or other kits using the NTK L2H2 cost roughly $650-$800 but will work well right out of the box.
To take the sensors up one more notch up is the NTK sensor that is hand balanced from the factory. (thanks Enzo250 for this info) These sensors are roughly $800-$1000 and used by more experienced tuners.
So in the end before buying a wideband look at the environment it will spend the most time in. If you are going to be using Leaded fuel,even sometimes, you might want to consider the NTK sensors. If you are going to be running pump gas all the time, then the Bosch sensors are perfect for you. If anything on this post is incorrect, please correct me or add to the thread.
Thanks
Anthony
So I go out and get a new sensor. Now this worked great. I mounted it on the downpipe but closer to the midpipe. Things were great. Everyday I drive the car to and from work and loved the new sensor. All was good. I now needed to tune the car and added some C16 and after a short time it started reading lean and I added more fuel until yadayadayada, the sensor was toast, let's call this sensor number 2. As my luck has it, these things all happen to me before a huge event or something. Again with my luck, I kept adding fuel in the VE table and did not save the map and yadayadayada...
So I went on the Innovate forum and posted about it and was told it should be good up to 500 hours yadayadayada. So I went out and bought another bosch sensor but this time did not use it and just sold the unit with a brand new sensor. So I started doing some more research, more can add to this or correct me if I am wrong anywhere.
Most of the 'cheaper' wideband kits come with the Bosch sensor, the LSU4.2 sensor is most common. These sensors cost anywhere from $50-$90. These are great sensors if you are not going to be using leaded fuel. They do not tolerate heat very well and should be mounted a little further away. Making a copper heat sink will help as well.
Now, the better kits come with the NTK sensors. These sensors are way more durable and can tolerate heat very very well. These sensors cost anywhere from $250-300 just for the sensor alone, not the kit. There are 2 NTK sensors. There is an old school L1H1 and a newer L2H2. The L1H1 is no longer in production. I called a few manufactorers of wideband and asked about the various sensors, they all referred to the NTK L1H1 sensor as "bulletproof"
These L1H1 sensor costs more than the L2H2, about $50 more.
The L2H2 is also a great sensor and replaced the L1H1. If you are looking to get a wideband kit and plan on running leaded fuel, you should try to get a kit that uses an NTK sensor.
I ended up getting the FJO Wideband Kit with the older L1H1 setup. Others like JD (Boostn7), Rx794, JayNYC have been using this setup for years with no issues. I absolutely love it. I have gone through about 10 drums of C16 in the past few months and the sensor is holding up well. I have the sensor mounted in the same spot the Bosch was mounted in that burnt up. I drive the car daily (when it was warm) and the sensor is holding up excellent and works very very well.
The extra cost of any kits with the NTK sensor is well worth it in the long run if you run leaded fuel. The Innovate Kit cost me $400 when it first came out with the LC1. 2 sensors went bad which were $75 each. Total cost is $550 but hours of trying to get it right. The FJO kit or other kits using the NTK L2H2 cost roughly $650-$800 but will work well right out of the box.
To take the sensors up one more notch up is the NTK sensor that is hand balanced from the factory. (thanks Enzo250 for this info) These sensors are roughly $800-$1000 and used by more experienced tuners.
So in the end before buying a wideband look at the environment it will spend the most time in. If you are going to be using Leaded fuel,even sometimes, you might want to consider the NTK sensors. If you are going to be running pump gas all the time, then the Bosch sensors are perfect for you. If anything on this post is incorrect, please correct me or add to the thread.
Thanks
Anthony
The Innovate is not bad but you have to place the sensor in the right position especially for a rotary. I like to place the sensor about 12 inches away from the turbo with the use of a heat shield. They last pretty long that way.
12-22-06, 06:26 PM
#3
I've been through about 4 of those Bosch sensors. After time at the PRI show talking with some experienced o2 sensor people, I was told the same thing Anthony.
Like the old saying goes," pay me now or pay me later, you're gonna pay "
Like the old saying goes," pay me now or pay me later, you're gonna pay "
12-22-06, 10:54 PM
#6
rebreaking things
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 866
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The NTK sensor is about 1% more accurate and 1% faster according to Motec. On my 2 rotor I had the sensor mounted 6" after the turbine and never had it overheat. I have never used a Bosch sensor with race gas so I can't speak to its durability there, but otherwise I have been very happy with it.
There are countless people using the Bosch sensors with good success. Granted, I had 1 start giving me odd readings every now and then after 10,000 miles of abuse. However, at $35 a sensor I can change them with the oil. The NTK sensor do not have an unlimited lifespan either, and somehow I doubt that it will be as accurate as a new Bosch sensor if it is kept in the car long enough to justify the per unit price difference.
-FWIW
[Edit] By the way, the Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor is supposed to be more accurate at super lean and rich AFRs. It is priced similarly to the NTK I believe. Might be worth considering . . .
There are countless people using the Bosch sensors with good success. Granted, I had 1 start giving me odd readings every now and then after 10,000 miles of abuse. However, at $35 a sensor I can change them with the oil. The NTK sensor do not have an unlimited lifespan either, and somehow I doubt that it will be as accurate as a new Bosch sensor if it is kept in the car long enough to justify the per unit price difference.
-FWIW
[Edit] By the way, the Bosch LSU 4.9 sensor is supposed to be more accurate at super lean and rich AFRs. It is priced similarly to the NTK I believe. Might be worth considering . . .
12-22-06, 11:55 PM
#7
Down for the count...
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe the Innovate units can use the NTK sensor as well. I saw this in one of their videos on their site. My Bosch Sensor that is used with my Innovate LC1 is mounted down about 5 inches from the flange on the end of my DP. Nice and cool spot...Has worked well so far!
Trending Topics
12-23-06, 06:16 AM
#8
silver ghost
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Home of the Rolex 24
Posts: 3,061
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
Originally Posted by Comitatus
I believe the Innovate units can use the NTK sensor as well. I saw this in one of their videos on their site. My Bosch Sensor that is used with my Innovate LC1 is mounted down about 5 inches from the flange on the end of my DP. Nice and cool spot...Has worked well so far!
12-23-06, 10:55 AM
#9
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
Hm, I was considering running c16 and 25 psi fulltime, I hadn't thought of how my sensor would respond to leaded fuel. My wideband sensor is installed pretty far back in the dp, you can just see it in this picture:
IIRC, I'm running the Bosch 7057, which is available through VW for 50ish bucks. The low price, combined with ease of install and the fact that I've driven my FD 3000 miles in the last 18 months, means I'm not terribly concerned with sensor life on race gas.
IIRC, I'm running the Bosch 7057, which is available through VW for 50ish bucks. The low price, combined with ease of install and the fact that I've driven my FD 3000 miles in the last 18 months, means I'm not terribly concerned with sensor life on race gas.
12-23-06, 12:25 PM
#10
BDC Motorsports
Great info and post, Anthony. I use an older PLX M-200 from about 4 years ago that uses the NTK L1H1/L2H2 sensors. Everything you've said is accurate. I did finally kill my L2H2 sensor about 2 months ago, after over 3 years of use, and replaced it with a brand-new L1H1. I don't trust the Bosche sensors as far as I can throw them. I've seen what happens when placing them too close to the turbo -- their response time dramatically drops over about 10 minutes of use.
B
B
12-23-06, 01:53 PM
#11
rebreaking things
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 866
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Bosch LSU and NTK UEGO Sensors - Both the MoTeC M400/600/800/880 and the MoTeC PLM are capable of operating with either the NTK UEGO or the Bosch LSU-4 5 wire wide band sensors.
Of the two, the NTK is most accurate. It is a true laboratory grade sensor. Its accuracy has been found to be about 1.5% better than that of the Bosch LSU. Additionally the NTK has a better response time than does the LSU again about 1.5%. The NTK is the benchmark against which the LSU is measured. The advantage of the LSU sensor is its lower price compared to the NTK. If you are doing very precise and accurate laboratory type testing, the NTK is the sensor for you.
Both sensors have a life expectancy of 500 hours on unleaded fuels and that number is diminished to 50 hours using leaded fuels. Lambda Sensors are very similar to spark plugs with respect to their estimated life expectancy.
Spark Plugs are designed to last 40,000 miles under optimum circumstances but they can be damaged in less than 1 mile by misuse. A lambda sensor can be thought of the same way. Misuse by overly rich mixtures, high temperatures, overtightening or dropping can have a very negative effect on lambda sensor life."
Of the two, the NTK is most accurate. It is a true laboratory grade sensor. Its accuracy has been found to be about 1.5% better than that of the Bosch LSU. Additionally the NTK has a better response time than does the LSU again about 1.5%. The NTK is the benchmark against which the LSU is measured. The advantage of the LSU sensor is its lower price compared to the NTK. If you are doing very precise and accurate laboratory type testing, the NTK is the sensor for you.
Both sensors have a life expectancy of 500 hours on unleaded fuels and that number is diminished to 50 hours using leaded fuels. Lambda Sensors are very similar to spark plugs with respect to their estimated life expectancy.
Spark Plugs are designed to last 40,000 miles under optimum circumstances but they can be damaged in less than 1 mile by misuse. A lambda sensor can be thought of the same way. Misuse by overly rich mixtures, high temperatures, overtightening or dropping can have a very negative effect on lambda sensor life."
Bosch Specs from Bosch Motorsports: http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/s...mbda/LSU42.pdf
-Exhaust gas at sensor element 850°C
NTK Specs from Pectel:http://www.pectel.co.uk/assets/NTKWideBand.pdf
-Operating tip Temperature: 750 to 850 C.
-Maximum Tip Temperature: 950 C.
Last edited by CMonakar; 12-23-06 at 02:06 PM.
12-23-06, 02:34 PM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: mooresville
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yeah bosch vs NTK 
I think it is pretty undisputed that the L1H1 is a better quality sensor than the lsu 4.2 and it is slightley more resiliant to abuse, however I have found that the cost factor does not add up.... L1H1=+/- $300 Lsu 4.0/2= +/- $50
I can tell you that there are very few ALMS/Grand-AM running NTKs....most of the the engine guys have a NTK lamba that they use for redundancy while mapping the motors, but on the cars and at the track almost everyone uses the bosh simply because it works and if it doesn't its only $50 I have seen Lsu's run up to 200hr's in racing conditions including a 24hr race and still work just fine...we finnally changed it simply do to hr's and I have now had it on my car for about two months.
I would say biggest killer of the bosch is cold warm up (condensation) the Bosch is very prone to cracking do to temp. shock.
I think it is pretty undisputed that the L1H1 is a better quality sensor than the lsu 4.2 and it is slightley more resiliant to abuse, however I have found that the cost factor does not add up.... L1H1=+/- $300 Lsu 4.0/2= +/- $50
I can tell you that there are very few ALMS/Grand-AM running NTKs....most of the the engine guys have a NTK lamba that they use for redundancy while mapping the motors, but on the cars and at the track almost everyone uses the bosh simply because it works and if it doesn't its only $50 I have seen Lsu's run up to 200hr's in racing conditions including a 24hr race and still work just fine...we finnally changed it simply do to hr's and I have now had it on my car for about two months.
I would say biggest killer of the bosch is cold warm up (condensation) the Bosch is very prone to cracking do to temp. shock.
12-23-06, 04:37 PM
#13
Originally Posted by CMonakar
The NTK sensor is about 1% more accurate and 1% faster according to Motec.
The NTK sensor do not have an unlimited lifespan either, and somehow I doubt that it will be as accurate as a new Bosch sensor if it is kept in the car long enough to justify the per unit price difference.
The NTK sensor do not have an unlimited lifespan either, and somehow I doubt that it will be as accurate as a new Bosch sensor if it is kept in the car long enough to justify the per unit price difference.
Right.. Motec can say what they want. What do you think they want you to do, buy an NTK and not buy another one for a few years or tell you the bosch is just as good and keep you calling them all the time for replacements.
I tune all sorts of vehicles and the bosch lsm's/lsu's just don't cut it for me. They don't last for **** and there not as responsive period.
I had a few customers using them with their motec's on alcohol drag cars and at every event we had a problems with them.
I don't care how cheap they are i can't stand inferior parts. I would rather spend more and have piece of mind that my sensor will work then having to worry all the time that at any moment my bosch sensor will fail. And they allows fail when you need them the most.
Try datalogging a drag bike or drag car with clutchless tranny and see what happens to the a/f during a shift. If your using a bosch sensor you won't see any change at all with a/f. Using a NTK you can actually what happens. What does that tell you... NTK's are only 1% more accurate and faster. PLEASE!!!
Maybe for your everyday street car bosch sensors are ok, or enough to get the job done. But for me, i would never trust tuning a million dollar boat, or a exotic drag car/bike with a $50 sensor.
12-23-06, 04:52 PM
#14
Originally Posted by enzo250
Try datalogging a drag bike or drag car with clutchless tranny and see what happens to the a/f during a shift. If your using a bosch sensor you won't see any change at all with a/f. Using a NTK you can actually what happens. What does that tell you... NTK's are only 1% more accurate and faster. PLEASE!!!
Maybe for your everyday street car bosch sensors are ok, or enough to get the job done. But for me, i would never trust tuning a million dollar boat, or a exotic drag car/bike with a $50 sensor.
Maybe for your everyday street car bosch sensors are ok, or enough to get the job done. But for me, i would never trust tuning a million dollar boat, or a exotic drag car/bike with a $50 sensor.
It amazes me the differences in response time of both sensors. The NTK would pick up every lean spike, misfire etc. where as the bosch would not. The bosch sensors were made for factory EFI monitoring use and not for performance tuning in my opinion.
12-24-06, 12:33 AM
#17
Down for the count...
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by G's 3rd Gen
Now that is the golden question. Can we use the NTK W/ THE LC1. I have been running the LC1 and xd 16 guage w/ the bosch for 6 months. No problems to date. Have the sensor mounted in the midpipe directly below shifter for easy access and install. Have recalibrated the sensor to air 1 time as according to manuel specs. I have not used any leaded fuel to date. A few gallons of 100 unleaded w/ every fill. G
This is where I found my information...About 30 seconds into the video, it says the the LC-1 can connect to a Bosch or a NTK sensor.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/r...ing-videos.php
click on the video for the LC-1 (2nd video on the list)
Sorry, couldn't copy a direct link.
12-24-06, 09:25 AM
#18
Stay tuned...
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: West Islip, Long Island NY
Posts: 2,917
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I've asked this question in the past on the Innovate forum and was told that they have no plans to make this work anytime soon.
I did a search on "NTK" on the Innovate forum and got more info. Also, I understand manufactorers will say many misleading things. Innovate states that they have customers running over 500 hours on C16 with the bosche sensors but I know that is not the case.
I forgot to add in my original post, I even ran a switch that turns the sensor on after the car warms up to eliminate condensation damaging the ceramics. In the end, from my experience and others, the Bosche sensors will die very quickly when using leaded fuel.
I don't think I have heard from anyone running C16 on a rotary that the bosche sensor lasts. For unleaded fuel the bosche sensor worked great but the minute I started adding C16 into the equation, that's when the headaches started.
I cannot begin to tell you how much time it cost me when Klaus on the innovate forum told me that 500 hours was normal on C16. I changed sensors, moved them further away, ran switches so condensation does not damage them. Finally I got the NTK setup after speaking to the experienced guys, I also installed the sensor near the turbo where the bosche would misread, has been running great on C16, and I have no more issues.
Anthony
I did a search on "NTK" on the Innovate forum and got more info. Also, I understand manufactorers will say many misleading things. Innovate states that they have customers running over 500 hours on C16 with the bosche sensors but I know that is not the case.
I forgot to add in my original post, I even ran a switch that turns the sensor on after the car warms up to eliminate condensation damaging the ceramics. In the end, from my experience and others, the Bosche sensors will die very quickly when using leaded fuel.
I don't think I have heard from anyone running C16 on a rotary that the bosche sensor lasts. For unleaded fuel the bosche sensor worked great but the minute I started adding C16 into the equation, that's when the headaches started.
I cannot begin to tell you how much time it cost me when Klaus on the innovate forum told me that 500 hours was normal on C16. I changed sensors, moved them further away, ran switches so condensation does not damage them. Finally I got the NTK setup after speaking to the experienced guys, I also installed the sensor near the turbo where the bosche would misread, has been running great on C16, and I have no more issues.
Anthony
Originally Posted by Comitatus
This is where I found my information...About 30 seconds into the video, it says the the LC-1 can connect to a Bosch or a NTK sensor.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/r...ing-videos.php
click on the video for the LC-1 (2nd video on the list)
Sorry, couldn't copy a direct link.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/r...ing-videos.php
click on the video for the LC-1 (2nd video on the list)
Sorry, couldn't copy a direct link.
12-24-06, 09:32 AM
#19
Stay tuned...
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: West Islip, Long Island NY
Posts: 2,917
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I've learned not to believe everything I read from companies etc... Unless you have done it yourself and learned from your own experience, your best bet is to take the advice of the guys that have "been there, done that" before taking the advice of those links...
Enzo, Boostn7, Rx794 have been running the NTK sensors for years. I opted otherwise since I "read" as you did and learned the hard way.
Experience is not free.
Anthony
Enzo, Boostn7, Rx794 have been running the NTK sensors for years. I opted otherwise since I "read" as you did and learned the hard way.
Experience is not free.
Anthony
Originally Posted by CMonakar
http://www.motec.com/motecus.htm
Bosch Specs from Bosch Motorsports: http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/s...mbda/LSU42.pdf
-Exhaust gas at sensor element 850°C
NTK Specs from Pectel:http://www.pectel.co.uk/assets/NTKWideBand.pdf
-Operating tip Temperature: 750 to 850 C.
-Maximum Tip Temperature: 950 C.
Bosch Specs from Bosch Motorsports: http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/s...mbda/LSU42.pdf
-Exhaust gas at sensor element 850°C
NTK Specs from Pectel:http://www.pectel.co.uk/assets/NTKWideBand.pdf
-Operating tip Temperature: 750 to 850 C.
-Maximum Tip Temperature: 950 C.
12-24-06, 11:05 AM
#22
Rotary Freak
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: MN
Posts: 2,524
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by AnthonyNYC
I forgot to add in my original post, I even ran a switch that turns the sensor on after the car warms up to eliminate condensation damaging the ceramics. In the end, from my experience and others, the Bosche sensors will die very quickly when using leaded fuel.
Anthony
Anthony
12-24-06, 02:42 PM
#23
running the sensors on leaded fuels like c16 etc kills sensor's quite quickly. Running pump gas actually helps prolong the life of them. So basically what i'm trying to say is if your using race gas alot it's a good idea to use your sensor with pump gas every so often to help prolong the life.
12-25-06, 01:23 AM
#25
What systems out there are compatable with the NTK sensors? I found this http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/357 price seems good but doesn't seem to datalog. Also Techedge http://www.techedge.com.au/ anyone with experience with either one of these systems or can suggest one out there. I'm planning to run strictly VP C16 fuel through my engine and I'm glad I came across this thread before buying a wideband.