Setup runs and consists of the following:

Aggressive streetport 13b-rew
HKS T04S turbo and manifold, tial 44mg wg
850cc primary and 1680cc secondaries bosch type
walbro 400lph
AEM EMS
HKS Twin Power
Blitz FMIC
3inch blitz nurspec exhaust


Setup makes 405rwhp at 14-14.5psi

The car is quick, but given the amount of lag vs a maxed out seq. setup, I'm wanting at least 500rwhp to make up for the jump to single turbo.

Would you guys in the 500+hp club recommend trying to push the T04S up to 20-22PSI w/ Water Injection on the current setup listed above with a retune to achieve near 500whp? Or Am I running into a band-aid zone.

Should I be moving up to a larger turbo rather than trying to max out the 60-1 type?

Are the traditional 850/1680cc injectors way to old of technology to be pushing vs these new ID products?

 

Define reliable. Are you looking to run 500whp on the regular and still have your motor last far beyond 60k miles? Or are you just hoping to not have stuff constantly breaking?

My previous motor only hit 469whp (19psi) on 850/1680s and my IDCs were getting uncomfortably high. My new motor is built like I'm expecting 600whp (brand new everything, good porting, stronger studs, oil pan brace, stronger seals, good clearances, plenty of fuel, WM50, etc., etc., etc.) but I really only plan on running 450-500whp on it. Even with that in mind I'd still be understanding if I need to rebuild it again in 20-30k miles simply as preventive maintenance...

How much lag are you seeing? 400whp is still stupidly quick on the street! lol.

I've always operated under the understanding that power and reliability are on opposite ends of a see-saw, it's pretty hard to get a whole lot of one without sacrificing some of the other...

 

Well, id like to last 60k miles plus...motor has ra super seals, oil mods etc but is not studded. I dont see why motors are always expected to fail at 30k miles. My stock motor ran 13 psi on twins and stock fuel and is sitting in garage at 70k miles pulled 19 inch vac.

Is is the increased propensity for detonation that blows them up at 400 plus? Or the wear on bearings and housings etc from the high boost?

I dont track my car or boost everywhere I go, I just want the reliability of my previous setup, but w enough power to smoke my friends' cars, gtr, rb26 240, 600hp sti...I cant keep up.

Ultinlnately id like to make 400 daily and run a high boost map for 500 when im feeling the need to scare myself.

Seems to me if I keep IAT at bay and detonation down w water injection I dont see what would hold me back from reliability within the motor itself apart from expected wear on drivetrain components.

Maybe I should switch over to e85

 

E85 would be a good add on. If your tune is good, all supporting mods are right there is no reason it won't last. Mine is over 600rwhp and goingon it's 5th year. I don't street drive a lot but it gets abused worse than u could imagine. Who tuned your car?

Do you know bnr? If so, Talk with him, you might be interested in what we have coming up.

 

Yes, I know Brian. Are you referring to the huntsville tuning session w ray possibly?

 

look into water injection, unless you already have it.

 

run e85 , will make 500hp no issues

 

Water injection . A safe tune and hold on lol.

 

Id like to go e85 however that would just be too much hassle as there is only one pump in my area and the car sits for up to a month at a time which would likely degrade injectors from the alcohols water uptake.

I think water and meth mix, 3 bar map, and a sick tune at 20 psi and call it quits!

 

a reliable 13b that is 500hp without bottom end lag?

 

Sounds like an oxymoron in all aspects right lol.

Well, my reasoning is the T04S being that its only 63mm it already spool up quicker than non-seq twins. I can deal with the lack of power under 4k RPM if it will make 500hp.

Keep the AFR below 12, keep the IAT down w/ Water and Meth inj, and I can't see why 500rwp or 300rwhp makes any difference on reliability.

 

Tons of reasons...not even sure where I would begin on this one.

 

It's not your daily, it will be as reliable as your tune. But I wouldn't really expect it to last 60k miles though. There's only a handful of piston motor designs that will last that long while making twice the power output they were designed for. Gotta remember, we're asking a lot from a 1.3 liter engine.

 

no not really... If the tune is bad then you can expect issues at 100 hp or 500 hp I tune 500hp 13b on pump gas with no issues , but the way hes making it is pretty safe . or i say tooooo safe

 

same here my buddys fd hes on here makes 490 pump gas no problems never left him stranded and no lag.. hes on here smg944..

 

It all depends on your definition of "reliable".

If your definition is, "it won't blow due to detonation and will last me many years driving it on the weekends only" then yes 500hp might be just as reliable as 300hp with a good tune.

If your definition is, "it will last as long as a daily driven car" then no, 500hp will not be as reliable as 300hp...meaning you probably will not get as many miles out of the 500hp engine as the 300hp engine.

If your definition is, "it will be as reliable on a track or in a race car" then there is no way in hell 500hp will be as reliable as 300hp. All the extra heat generated from that extra horsepower will eventually cook something...whether it be the coolant seals, the turbo, something electrical, etc etc. You can safeguard against most of it with proper design, but eventually something will fail.

My definition of reliable is mostly aligned with the race car mentality.

 

+1

+500rwhp 13B on the track would be very difficult to be consistantly reliable. It seems like 350 rwhp on the track seems to be the reliability 'sweet spot'. With a good tune and build they'll last for years of service at the track and even longer as a weekend warrior.

 

Well, at the top of the thread, I defined my outline of reliability.

- car is not my daily driver
- I do not boost everywhere i go
- I do not track the car (yet at least)

Im trying to understand why 500 is supposedly less then 350 if heat is kept down, coolant temps stay down, charge temps are optimal, knock is low, and zero detonation occurs.


Water and meth to keep charge temps down
Huge blitz fmic
Walbro 400 plenty of fuel pressure
Vented hood

Car will be tuned by Ray Wilson from PFS. So I dont think it will be a hazardous tune, at least I hope.

I understand a stock 13b limit s at 255, however there were HUGE inefficiencies in the system. Undersized rad, undersized ic, terrible precat dp etc. Simply doing reliability/efficiency mods and maintaining stock boost car jumps up to 300 flywheel.

My end question is, what boost level would you define as reliable if 350 is the racecar limit. Why is 14 psi safe but not 20? At what point do you cross threashold?

Iv seen most 13b blow at less than 350 simply from heat.

 

Detonation and heat kills motors which seems to me why it stands reason that 350hp would last longer than 500 on the track. Obviously double the boost is going to demand more cooling capacity and run the limits of IAT and heatsoak and oil temps. But, if all these temps remain consistent with a 350rwhp by increased capacity, dual oil coolers, better ducting, ai, etc why is the life so diminished?

Is attributed to bearing wear? The combustion chamber pressure wearing the mechanics regardless of temps knock etc? Flex on the e shaft?

 

Good points I definitely agree. I can see that 500 is fine for your spirited driving but going wot on a track all day is going to gennerate way more heat than 350rwhp.

 

Fwiw, There was blurb on this topic at Pettit's website a while back, and iirc, they were recommending 200 or 250 rwhp per rotor as about the practical limit for reasonable reliability before structural and other improvements were necessary (for a street-strip-daily-occasional track type motor). Purpose built race motors will have higher capacity.

Additionally, a few years ago, I had a conversation with Rob Golden (Pineapple) whereas he was suggesting 500 to 600 as being a transitional area with certain mods really being necessary approaching or above 600hp (~30psi boost) to insure long term reliability.

 

Excellent info.

 

PFS built my previous motor, and tuned it to approx 470whp (I think it was like 469 at 19psi, I can't remember exactly). He gave the motor his stamp of approval and said the tune was good.

That motor blew an apex seal less than 1,500 miles from initial start up, while I was sedately driving in to work one sunday (I was testing to see what kind of fuel economy I could get if I went easy on it..)

No tuner is perfect, and it's my experience that PFS will NOT stand behind their work if it causes you an engine. I'm not saying that he'll blow your motor up, but I do know of several cases where engines blew shortly after being tuned there. Just a word of caution..

 

Wow thats NUTS, it blew just cruising, no boost, no stress, low rpms?

What was your setup? Just wondering.

Was timing just too advanced?

 

Its to my understanding pfs tuned ernie ts fd when he first started making huge numbers. I know its always a risk but id rather have someone with lots of rotary experience tune it rather than myself. I mean theres not really any better alternative. Any other ideas?