TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Hi all. I am getting somewhat overwhelmed by the garbage and advertising on all these wideband sites and am tired of trying to dig through all the crap to find out the real information.

If anybody could recommend me a unit that has these features:
Uses the NTK wideband sensor
Has a easy to read accurate fast gauge. I like ones that look like this -

Has a 0-5v output so I can connect it to my haltech for closed loop cruise


The M-300 in that picture is almost perfect, but it doesn't use the NTK sensor. Any tips or opinions are welcome.

Thanks
~Tweak

Also I would like to strike up some debate, it seems that all manufacturers are saying that the bosch unit is cheaper and just as good as the NTK. Do you guys agree or just marketing at its finest?

RX794

The best recommendation that I can offer as well as a lot of other experienced racers and tuners on the forum is that the FJO Wideband with the NTK sensor is the best wideband out there in terms of performance and durability. As far as the Bosch vs NTK sensor debate, the Bosch unit will not handle leaded gas and extreme heat as well as the NTK sensor(I'm speaking from my experiences as well as the other racers and tuners out here that have used them both). Yes, there is a reason why the Bosch sensor is cheaper, it's because it's not as durable as the NTK. I'll try and get some other people to chime in on this with their experiences and opinions.

RX794

The FJO Wideband gives you a choice of these 3 guages:

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Thank you for reconfirming all the research I have been doing lately. I think the choice is obvious, especially with our higher EGT engines. I don't know why I was trying to get information from the people selling the wideband/sensors instead of just searching on the forum. It looks like I will be taking the dive and getting the fjo unit after the snow goes away. Somehow I feel like PLX in general as a company has cheapened their quality by making all of their recent products use only the bosch sensor. I have my lc-1 and it seems to be working fine, but for some reason I feel like it is some sort of Russian piston spy waiting patiently for the right moment to give me wrong information that will blow my engine. I will feel much more comfortable using something that doesn't have free air calibration and all the features.

Thanks again for the reply and any other comments are welcome but not really needed after I searched the forum.

~Tweak

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, I saw that, and the sensors aren't really as expensive I thought they were going to be. Actually everything that FJO makes that has interested me has been ... well less expensive than I was expecting. (lol I sound like a fjo commercial) Maybe I was just expecting to have to take out a small loan for things to actually work like they should (like everything else in my FC). I would have liked to have a 4 digit display like the m-300, but if the sensor is only .1 accurate, there really isn't a reason to have that 4th digit.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

I have the LC-1, and I will say that it can be finicky in some ways, especially if you are not careful with the ground wires. But the fact that it needs to be calibrated is a GOOD thing! If you are trying to measure how much oxygen is in a given air sample, you need to know the ambient conditions.

If you've ever owned or read up on breathalyzers, you will find out that they work in a similar way. AlcoHawk is a major manufacturer, and I happen to own one of their mid-level models just so I don't get fucked coming home from a bar. Breathalyzers are going to measure how much alcohol is in a given sample of air, and they have VERY strict calibration procedures for each use. For maximum accuracy you are supposed to eventually send them to the manufacturer so that they can be recalibrated with even more sophisticated equipment. There is a reason for that. In fact, I am really skeptical of police breathalyzers now because I know how sensitive they are. I highly doubt police officers are adequately trained on their use and their limitations, and I wonder how far these models have drifted from their factory calibrations.

All that being said, I do wish the LC-1 would use the NTK sensor. I burned out one Bosch sensor already on mine after 600 miles of use with leaded gas, although I relocated it farther back and it seems to be lasting longer.

Look up the NGK AFX wideband, it uses the NTK sensor.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

+1 for the FJO. The controller is a neat and tidy package. I think they discontinued the box display and you can only get the gauge type now. At least Alamo had a close out on the boxes this summer.

If you want to datalog with the Haltech you'll probably want the 4001 model v. the 4000. The 4001 has the RPM input and user interface which allows you to program one of outputs to your own specification. The 4000 does not have an interface option. The downside of that when it comes to the Haltech is that the two outputs of the 4000 are fixed at 0-1v and .5-4.5v. The Haltech does not like to accept anything other than 0v=10:1 - 5v=20:1. So, with the 4000 you would be stuck reading straight voltage or having the logged afr being incorrect. Make sense?

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Yes thank you. Sadly, every day I keep finding annoying limits of the e11v2. I don't consider myself doing anything crazy, not even close to what dedicated race car would be, and for it once being their trophy unit, I feel somewhat let down. But I guess there has to be some reason for me to shell out more money for their new premium unit huh? :/ At least this one is a simple one to dodge. I still <3 my e11v2! I am excited for plantium though too!

I also understand where arghx is coming from, and I think you understand what I mean by I just don't trust it. Sometimes I think it's just seems ... flakey. I think I am going to keep the lc-1 until I get the fjo unit and get another bung installed and do some side by side comparisons.

LoL, fjo is going be getting a lot of my xmas money this year. :P

NewbernD

iTrader: (1)

Or you could keep your eyes open for an older PLX M-200.. looks just like the M-300 that you have pictured and used the NTK sensor. I have used one for the past 5 years with no complaints.

RXHEAVEN_WA

Neko AF700 hands down best meter you can buy, checks out 100% with Autronic B model reference meter too (both the highest grade proven NTK meters on the market).

I bought a Neko AF700 based off this scientific proof on my tuners recommendations below
Autronic B Model Black trace
Neko AF700 Blue trace

All pro tuning shops and manufactures in japan use Neko AF700 and from this evidence it is clear to see why, they are the best bang for buck hands down.

http://www.rhdjapan.com/jdm-low/Neko...r-System-31063

RXHEAVEN_WA

AF700 hooked up into data logger

http://www.fdowners.com/showthread.php?t=899

And a ton of results posted of it in action on cars, look at posts taken of above link, I had my car tuned with this equipment and meter and it was perfect. I liked it so much I had to buy my own After doing more research it is true that all top level Japanese tuners cars feature these meters, you can see the displays in half of the Jap videos you find on the net too

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

good, useful info so far.

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Just in the last couple days I've started to look for a new lab quality wideband. The ECM AFM1000 gets mentioned a lot as one that the OEMs and some big names in the business use a lot. Price is quite high but you get what you pay for.

What is interesting is that the NGK AFX with the NTK sensor always seems to get mentioned in the same threads as the "if you have to have a budget sensor this is the best alternative". Seems the NGK AFX is closely related to the ECM product at a much lower price and it will use the Bosch or NTK sensors.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

*coughcough*

Yup I'm using the NGK AFX Powerdex with an NTK sensor. Works awesome, love the display, but its a little hard to find a place for given its dimensions.

sk8world

iTrader: (5)

I used to use the LC1 w/ Bosch and they would crap out on leaded gas after a feww good pulls on the dyno or a few hundred miles of driving on pump gas. I swaped to the FJO/NTK and must say the readings were much quicker. I tuned on leaded and put 1000 miles on it before the ntk went bad. I was really hoping the $200 sensor would last longer.... I am going to try and move it down stream to see if this one will last longer.

fritts

iTrader: (5)

My brother in law has the NGK unit and it is incredibly slow responding. I have used multiple widebands and these seem to be the worst when it comes to response time. I have not looked at latency on the output only the display though maybe the output is faster.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

But honestly, how slow is the response time really?

I've tuned two setups on this wideband and it matched the calibrated dyno sensor very well.

How accurate do these things *NEED* to be for what were doing? ****, the last time I tuned on the dyno I actually paid more attention to the EGT's, then looked at the wideband after I was done playing

I really think sometimes people blow the required accuracy/resposne times out of proportion. I've heard so many people say that Bosch sensors are junk, don't use them they die bla bla bla......yet the one in my car (yes I have two units installed on my FC) has gone nearly 40,000kms HARD on the street and still works fine.

What did people do in the days of no widebands? The more I get into this the more I think its nearly meaningless information.

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

How much race gas did that Bosche see? I've also used the bosche sensors on pump gas with no issues but was not the same with race gas. I log EGTs as well but to get the quickest response you need to run with a wide band. For example, as the car ramps into boost between gears, you obviously want these areas leaner, something you really cannot measure with EGTs as quickly as needed.

I've had the FJO NTK (L1H1) setup for a few years now with no issues yet. How did you know yours went bad, what was it doing? Just curious so I know what to look out for when mine goes bad.

Thanks,

Anthony

arghx

iTrader: (3)

The LC1 throws error codes and shuts down easily. I burned one of the Bosch sensors out after about 700 miles with leaded fuel. Then I moved the sensor even further back (back of the midpipe versus front of the midpipe before) and switched to unleaded 100 octane race fuel and I haven't had any problems since.

enzo250

Not sure what you mean? I use these widebands regularly and they perform just fine...
I dont think you can get a better wideband at this price..

I use an ECM and Autronic B Model on my dyno and always compare the AFX to those and it's always right there within .2 a/f..

enzo250

Anthony they normally start reading lean. So if you know your running rich and your a/f say's 14.1 you know its time for a new sensor...

sk8world

iTrader: (5)

Its is wierd. It responds a tad slower but the biggest thing is after full warm up it will be reading ok for maybe 5-10 mins. Then it will start reading 1 point higher (leaner). I confirmed by swaping sensors. It was killing me a few months back while trying to get it running good with the new rebuild and all. I remember saying " Damn it feels just like it is breaking up from too much fuel but the AFR's are saying otherwise"!!!! LOL...

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Zero leaded fuels on my engines. I know the lead can kill the sensors though, so my situation would only be comparable to those running unleaded pump gas and tuning. But absolutely - lead can shorten the sensor life. I'm just stating my findings on pump gas + water

I agree about the AFR offering a wider view of the tuning picture though for sure.

justturbo2

iTrader: (4)

i have the fjo, and no problems.
has any one used the aem one, i heard its pretty accurate?

fritts

iTrader: (5)

I'm talking about it being slow to respond not a problem with accuracy. The LC-1 is what I use and suggest for those smart enough to properly wire it you won't find a better bargain.