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Intercooler - which one?

Old 02-11-10, 09:20 AM
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Intercooler - which one?

Hey Everyone,

I currently have the PFS Large SMIC with duct. Pretty much the same as the Large M2 SMIC.

I also have the ETS FMIC: 25x9x3 Bar and Plate Core


The good thing about this kit is that I don't have to move the radiator. The problem with this is that installation requires the removal of the front support bar, which I do not want to do.

I really want a FMIC, first, i have a cwest bumper, and it looks stupid without a FMIC, and second, i want to free up some room in the engine bay for a meth fuel cell.

I need an I/C that is at least 3 inches thick, i want 600whp, do i need a thicker IC than this?

I saw the Greddy Spec LS kit for sale by the vendor, but i think the core isn't large enough, any thoughts?


If the Greddy kit won't do it, i'd like to fab up my own, but it looks like the only way to install a FMIC on an FD without removing the front support bar is to tilt the radiator up. Without purchasing a kit, how does one move the radiator?

Thanks
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Old 02-11-10, 10:28 AM
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You going to need roughly 700hp for that goal that means a core size capable of roughly 1000cfm+/- my guess is around a P/r of 2.7+, a good core may be 3.5x 11x 24 since you like long charge flow FMIC's. It is certainly going to add lag no doubt about it. The other thing is running meth means you don't need as big a IC as well. What are the flow ratings of either of those cores? At what Pressure were they tested? Rating a IC by a HP number is a bit silly. (I believe that greddy is 500hp) As example the core I listed is rated at roughly [email protected] that's roughly 280whp on a rotary. I think we can agree that a core that size is good for more HP than that. I think either of these cores may get you there with a proper tune on meth but IMO the greddy is too narrow ie core should be 3.5" and the "ETS" is to short ie 9" As example that same core I listed at a 11" height would lose 100CFM in flow by dropping down to a 9" height. Another issue is once you start running cores of 3.5" thick or higher as FMIC's it starts to effect flow to the radiator pretty drastically. Hope that helps somewhat.

~S~
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Old 02-11-10, 11:18 AM
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Thats very helpful, thank you.

Looks like I definitely won't go with the Greddy Kit.

I think I might make the ETS core work for now, and if i reach its limit then i'll put something bigger in.

Either way, I'll have to tilt the radiator up, and mount the ETS core upside down and pipe it like the Greddy kit.

Any info on tilting the radiator without buying a FMIC kit?
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Old 02-11-10, 01:09 PM
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Greddy 3 row intercooler kit will work but very pricey.
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Old 02-11-10, 01:31 PM
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Yeah, that is a bit out of the price range.
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Old 02-11-10, 06:59 PM
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Get an intercooler custom made by Bell. They give you CFM ratings for all the core sizes and you can choose your own type of endtank design. They gvie you PDF design of your intercooler to see if its what you want.

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Old 02-11-10, 07:20 PM
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The sizing chart on the Bell website says that their IC with core size similar to the ETS pictured above is about 1400 CFM.

Assuming the ETS IC flows at least 66% as well as the Bell (I think thats a safe bet, ETS is pretty widely known), that gets me at least 1000 CFM, which should be good for my power goals.

So I'll stick with it for now but flip it over and pipe it like the greddy kit.

Now i just need a little help with the radiator (please )

Thanks again for all the help.
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Old 02-11-10, 07:45 PM
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Your reading the chart wrong, for a bell core the size you suggest, it shows a CFM of 362. Step up to a 3.5" core your up to 422 CFM.

~S~

Last edited by Zero R; 02-11-10 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 02-11-10, 08:15 PM
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The ETS is 25x9x3

These are the closest on the Bell site.
3.00 25.10 8.00 1412 $503.00
thickness CFM
3.00 9.00 24.00 362 $369.00

I checked the Legend for the B and C dimensions, you are right, that sucks.
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Old 02-12-10, 09:51 AM
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Now keep in mind that bell is one of the few who will tell you what they test their flow at. That 362 CFM is at 10psi. So the CFM number will go up when you put 25psi through it. You can see though just how differently the two cores flow with pretty much the same dimensions. From a pure flow standpoint it is ideal to stay below 20" long tubes as most of the cooling is already achieved by that point and your trading off very little cooling for for a bit more drag(flow loss). Also note that this means more than likely the ETS may flow marginally better or marginally worse but it will flow somewhat in the same range. If they tell you it flows 1000CFM ask them at what pressure was that flow tested.

~S~
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Old 02-12-10, 10:38 AM
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I'll give ETS a call. On their website it says they were running 21psi or so and noticed a benefit over the Apexi FMIC they had on the car previously.

They were running a T66 turbo (not sure which brand), while I have the Greddy T78. My turbo is a 67mm, I'm pretty sure mine is bigger.

So knowing they have a T66 and pushed 21psi safely (10.5 AFR on pump without meth), noticed a benefit over the Apexi FMIC, can anyone determine the approximate CFM?

Thanks for all the great info Zero.
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Old 02-12-10, 11:25 PM
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No need to throw your money away. The Ebay core were runnin on our car is good for 620rwhp at 24psi on pump, a few more ponies than the previous setup using a GReddy.
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Old 02-12-10, 11:44 PM
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I have run the ETS core before in conjunction with water/meth and it performs very well when ambient temps are lower than 80 deg F. I usually see around 6C at 16+psi on 60ish mm turbos. I think you will be fine. Are you trying to get to 600rwhp on a 67mm turbo?
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Old 02-17-10, 09:25 AM
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I'm trying to get to around 550 on this turbo. If i get bored with that then its 20b turbo time haha.

I'm just trying to plan so that when the time comes for a 20b, i have to upgrade as few things as possible.

My fuel system is ready, my EMS is pretty easy to switch out for another Electromotive unit that can handle two more plugs, so having an FMIC that can handle it is one step closer.
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Old 02-18-10, 03:18 PM
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I you are considering a 20B later, than I would not consider the ETS because of the structural hacking. Do some research on what other 20B guys are doing. I would guess they are building custom setups due to the nature of the project.
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Old 02-19-10, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Chudsoncoupe View Post
I'm trying to get to around 550 on this turbo. If i get bored with that then its 20b turbo time haha.

I'm just trying to plan so that when the time comes for a 20b, i have to upgrade as few things as possible.

My fuel system is ready, my EMS is pretty easy to switch out for another Electromotive unit that can handle two more plugs, so having an FMIC that can handle it is one step closer.
What's the process with electromotive to get it to control a 3 rotor? Can the TEC GT do it or do you have to get a TEC3R? If you do, is the harness the same?
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Old 02-19-10, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyNYC View Post
What's the process with electromotive to get it to control a 3 rotor? Can the TEC GT do it or do you have to get a TEC3R? If you do, is the harness the same?
The TEC GT cannot do it. But the 3R can. The harness for the TEC GT to the 3R is not plug and play either, but it is pretty simple to swith. All of the sensors are all the same, and I would have to add wires for 2 more coils and 2 more fuel injectors.

So its just a matter of adding those wires, and then cutting the wires that lead to the TEC GT plug (right where it plugs into the unit), then connecting them to the TEC3R wiring harness, and since its easy to get both wiring diagrams, its just a matter of comparing the two documents and connecting the wires.

So while its not exactly plug and play, its still much easier than wiring in a new EMS.

Sadly, I'm pretty sure the 20B is another year away for me though.
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