Help with Ignition Timing maps. Ignition tables included.
01-09-16, 12:43 PM
#1
Help with Ignition Timing maps. Ignition tables included.
Hi. I want to make sure that I'm not missing something with my ignition maps. The motor is a 13b-re with Ito aggressive street port and Wannaspeed mechanical pre-turbo water injections coming at 10 psi. The car is also running sequential IGN1A coils with NGK7420-10 and 10.5 plugs. The carhas an EWG EFR 9180 turbo. I have seen several maps that are not this aggressive, could this me and issue? This is the 3rd time that I have had this motor apart with bent apex seals and damaged side seals. The side seals were a problem with the closing edge of the ports, which I have fixed.......HOPEFULLY! With all else aside, I'm leaning toward ignition map being too aggressive causing my damage.
I greatly appreciate any help and thank you guys for looking.
Jose Nieves
I greatly appreciate any help and thank you guys for looking.
Jose Nieves
01-09-16, 02:08 PM
#2
From what I can tell, you're using table switching so you can use two timing maps for more resolution?Table1 for all of your vacuum and Table3 for all of your boost portion of the map?
It doesn't look too too bad. What compression are you using? I would probably take a degree or two out of the higher boost portion of the map (>200kpa) and another degree or so out of the portion of the map where the car makes peak torque. Also, What does your split map look like?
You might want to take a look at MS3X. You get much better safety features like AFR protection shutdown, knock monitoring w/ timing retard, and EGT safety shutdown.
It doesn't look too too bad. What compression are you using? I would probably take a degree or two out of the higher boost portion of the map (>200kpa) and another degree or so out of the portion of the map where the car makes peak torque. Also, What does your split map look like?
You might want to take a look at MS3X. You get much better safety features like AFR protection shutdown, knock monitoring w/ timing retard, and EGT safety shutdown.
01-09-16, 02:59 PM
#3
From what I can tell, you're using table switching so you can use two timing maps for more resolution?Table1 for all of your vacuum and Table3 for all of your boost portion of the map?
It doesn't look too too bad. What compression are you using? I would probably take a degree or two out of the higher boost portion of the map (>200kpa) and another degree or so out of the portion of the map where the car makes peak torque. Also, What does your split map look like?
You might want to take a look at MS3X. You get much better safety features like AFR protection shutdown, knock monitoring w/ timing retard, and EGT safety shutdown.
It doesn't look too too bad. What compression are you using? I would probably take a degree or two out of the higher boost portion of the map (>200kpa) and another degree or so out of the portion of the map where the car makes peak torque. Also, What does your split map look like?
You might want to take a look at MS3X. You get much better safety features like AFR protection shutdown, knock monitoring w/ timing retard, and EGT safety shutdown.
I was thinking about switching to either MS3 or to the Adaptronic ECU. Im not sure which one to get yet. Any advice is welcomed.
Split Timing map attached.
01-09-16, 06:12 PM
#4
I can't really saw what values will work best for you, but i would recommend reducing it at peak torque and slowly ramping it up to redline. VE and cylinder pressure will not be flat like your timing map is. Typically you reduce timing a bit at peak torque to reduce the likelihood of knock and increase timing as RPM increase where VE and chamber pressure decrease (and the likelihood of knock).
I would highly recommend MS3X. Megasquirt has some of the best software and support in the market. The Features of MS3X can't be touched for twice the price.
I would highly recommend MS3X. Megasquirt has some of the best software and support in the market. The Features of MS3X can't be touched for twice the price.
01-09-16, 07:57 PM
#5
Hi. I want to make sure that I'm not missing something with my ignition maps. The motor is a 13b-re with Ito aggressive street port and Wannaspeed mechanical pre-turbo water injections coming at 10 psi. The car is also running sequential IGN1A coils with NGK7420-10 and 10.5 plugs. The carhas an EWG EFR 9180 turbo. I have seen several maps that are not this aggressive, could this me and issue? This is the 3rd time that I have had this motor apart with bent apex seals and damaged side seals. The side seals were a problem with the closing edge of the ports, which I have fixed.......HOPEFULLY! With all else aside, I'm leaning toward ignition map being too aggressive causing my damage.
I greatly appreciate any help and thank you guys for looking.
Jose Nieves
I greatly appreciate any help and thank you guys for looking.
Jose Nieves
It's also why Ito won't tune anything he builds or he wouldnt have anyone else to blame.
It's always the same story. He will have you run around sending your fuel system out to be clean and flow tested, tell you to replace the ignition. His favorite is blaming the tuner. I'm pretty sure thats why you are here with your timing map.
You will end up replacing everything and it will still be the same. He talks a good story to get your money. He will act like he found the problem and it won't ever be his work... But the motor will fail again and again. He should take up landscaping as a career.
My advice to you is give up on Ito before it costs you anymore money, time or frustration.
01-09-16, 10:02 PM
#6
I couldn't ever get off the Dyno with an Ito built motor. Would always melt my apex seals. Looks like he is still building the same garbage. He rebuilt it 3 times starting with a fresh reman with new housings that he ported and would always blame the tuner. Problem is the tuner was Steve Kan. Steve was tuning 10 to 12 cars each time and mine was the only one losing compression due to melted seals.
It's also why Ito won't tune anything he builds or he wouldnt have anyone else to blame.
It's always the same story. He will have you run around sending your fuel system out to be clean and flow tested, tell you to replace the ignition. His favorite is blaming the tuner. I'm pretty sure thats why you are here with your timing map.
You will end up replacing everything and it will still be the same. He talks a good story to get your money. He will act like he found the problem and it won't ever be his work... But the motor will fail again and again. He should take up landscaping as a career.
My advice to you is give up on Ito before it costs you anymore money, time or frustration.
It's also why Ito won't tune anything he builds or he wouldnt have anyone else to blame.
It's always the same story. He will have you run around sending your fuel system out to be clean and flow tested, tell you to replace the ignition. His favorite is blaming the tuner. I'm pretty sure thats why you are here with your timing map.
You will end up replacing everything and it will still be the same. He talks a good story to get your money. He will act like he found the problem and it won't ever be his work... But the motor will fail again and again. He should take up landscaping as a career.
My advice to you is give up on Ito before it costs you anymore money, time or frustration.
Jose
01-09-16, 10:04 PM
#7
I can't really saw what values will work best for you, but i would recommend reducing it at peak torque and slowly ramping it up to redline. VE and cylinder pressure will not be flat like your timing map is. Typically you reduce timing a bit at peak torque to reduce the likelihood of knock and increase timing as RPM increase where VE and chamber pressure decrease (and the likelihood of knock).
I would highly recommend MS3X. Megasquirt has some of the best software and support in the market. The Features of MS3X can't be touched for twice the price.
I would highly recommend MS3X. Megasquirt has some of the best software and support in the market. The Features of MS3X can't be touched for twice the price.
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01-09-16, 10:10 PM
#8
If you have an MS2v3.0, you need to buy a MS3 CPU, MS3X expansion card, MS3X case and second harness for the expansion outputs. It's $400-500.
MS3 uses 16x16 maps, so you do get a bit more resolution. Sequebtial injection allows you to idle leaner and cleaner. Sequential spark is also an option for cheap and powerful coil upgrades (LS).
Your maps from MS2 can be imported directly to a new MS3X tube.
MS3 uses 16x16 maps, so you do get a bit more resolution. Sequebtial injection allows you to idle leaner and cleaner. Sequential spark is also an option for cheap and powerful coil upgrades (LS).
Your maps from MS2 can be imported directly to a new MS3X tube.
01-10-16, 03:48 AM
#9
What about the thing called "calibration" of the ECU? Not sure about the ECU you're using, but the one (which is FuelTech) on my car has to calibrated before starting playing with the ignition table, otherwise say 25 degrees on the map may mean a dangerously different value in reality. I presume this principle should apply to all the ECUs...
01-10-16, 04:43 AM
#10
What about the thing called "calibration" of the ECU? Not sure about the ECU you're using, but the one (which is FuelTech) on my car has to calibrated before starting playing with the ignition table, otherwise say 25 degrees on the map may mean a dangerously different value in reality. I presume this principle should apply to all the ECUs...
01-10-16, 07:08 AM
#11
Get new housings and call it a lesson learned.
01-10-16, 09:02 AM
#12
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
"I couldn't ever get off the Dyno with an Ito built motor. Would always melt my apex seals. Looks like he is still building the same garbage. He rebuilt it 3 times starting with a fresh reman with new housings that he ported and would always blame the tuner. Problem is the tuner was Steve Kan. Steve was tuning 10 to 12 cars each time and mine was the only one losing compression due to melted seals.
It's also why Ito won't tune anything he builds or he wouldnt have anyone else to blame.
It's always the same story. He will have you run around sending your fuel system out to be clean and flow tested, tell you to replace the ignition. His favorite is blaming the tuner. I'm pretty sure thats why you are here with your timing map.
You will end up replacing everything and it will still be the same. He talks a good story to get your money. He will act like he found the problem and it won't ever be his work... But the motor will fail again and again. He should take up landscaping as a career.
My advice to you is give up on Ito before it costs you anymore money, time or frustration."
after reading this post i thought this must be an old thread... i had the exact same experience w Ito in 03! two motors in a row ate side seals due to the late close. at that point i scrapped the irons/housings and moved on.
apparently Ito hasn't.
Howard
It's also why Ito won't tune anything he builds or he wouldnt have anyone else to blame.
It's always the same story. He will have you run around sending your fuel system out to be clean and flow tested, tell you to replace the ignition. His favorite is blaming the tuner. I'm pretty sure thats why you are here with your timing map.
You will end up replacing everything and it will still be the same. He talks a good story to get your money. He will act like he found the problem and it won't ever be his work... But the motor will fail again and again. He should take up landscaping as a career.
My advice to you is give up on Ito before it costs you anymore money, time or frustration."
after reading this post i thought this must be an old thread... i had the exact same experience w Ito in 03! two motors in a row ate side seals due to the late close. at that point i scrapped the irons/housings and moved on.
apparently Ito hasn't.
Howard
01-10-16, 09:55 AM
#13
Engine, Not Motor
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Table switching is just going to add confusing and make it harder to tune.
You don't need much timing resolution in boost anyway since you're not tuning for ragged edge, but you are tuning for safety.
For example, here's my "base map" timing table from my Megasquirt writeup:
That's a really good starting point (though pull some timing from the idle area) for light/medium load and a safe table for high load. No farting with duel table as you don't need much resolution when in boost. The ECU interpolates between bins very well.
Split:
You don't need much timing resolution in boost anyway since you're not tuning for ragged edge, but you are tuning for safety.
For example, here's my "base map" timing table from my Megasquirt writeup:
That's a really good starting point (though pull some timing from the idle area) for light/medium load and a safe table for high load. No farting with duel table as you don't need much resolution when in boost. The ECU interpolates between bins very well.
Split:
01-11-16, 06:34 PM
#14
Table switching is just going to add confusing and make it harder to tune.
You don't need much timing resolution in boost anyway since you're not tuning for ragged edge, but you are tuning for safety.
For example, here's my "base map" timing table from my Megasquirt writeup:
That's a really good starting point (though pull some timing from the idle area) for light/medium load and a safe table for high load. No farting with duel table as you don't need much resolution when in boost. The ECU interpolates between bins very well.
Split:
You don't need much timing resolution in boost anyway since you're not tuning for ragged edge, but you are tuning for safety.
For example, here's my "base map" timing table from my Megasquirt writeup:
That's a really good starting point (though pull some timing from the idle area) for light/medium load and a safe table for high load. No farting with duel table as you don't need much resolution when in boost. The ECU interpolates between bins very well.
Split:
01-13-16, 06:47 PM
#16
The templates are garbage. His porting is the problem. One of the engine builders who tore down my motor mentioned it. Seals end up getting too much heat from the scavenging. Ask around to shops in NJ that have taken his failed motors apart. He doesn't know what he is doing. Any child can make a port bigger. It doesn't make for a correctly sized or shaped port.
Get new housings and call it a lesson learned.
Get new housings and call it a lesson learned.
I've looked thru some of the adaptronic tune files on the adaptronic forum and they are conservative for tuned cars compared to mine.
01-17-16, 10:21 AM
#17
Engine, Not Motor
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Someone else would have to chime in about this because I've never really spent any great amount of time tuning split past what is safe. Dyno time for every last HP starts to get expensive. I'm usually under time/cost constraints. Plus most of the steady state dynos around here are run by people who don't know how to use an eddy brake, yet won't allow someone else at the controls.
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